Zappa: Is it just me or...

[doc540]

"crazed cultural pastiche"




You da MAN!!!

[Saturn]

I don't think there needs to be distinct difference within his pieces, or between his pieces. The vibe is the important thing for me, and Zappa uses continuing themes and resonances throughout his work to maintain and enhance his vibe.

Love the man.

[NeoFauve]

his social/cultural commentary distracted me from his music.

One could, if they wanted to , consider all his music social/cultural commentary.
Just the contrast between what he did and what pretty much every other big time rock band was doing says something about at least the state of rockdom.

[twin twelve]

I was a big FZ fan in the 70's and 80's but it required work. As I developed as a musician I realized how structurally complicated his work really was. Musical ideas would appear in deconstructions referring back to previous albums. Characters (potato head bobby, carolina hard core ectasy etc) would reappear in different songs. I doubt that players like Fowler, George Duke, JL Ponty, Steve Vai would play with a hack. They probably never got rich playing this stuff and could have played with anyone they choose.

Because this stuff was so complicated it never caught the publics eye other than the scatalogical rock parody stuff. Not implying that you're not complicated or don't have the ability to appreciate it but lots of great players and composers site FZ as a heavy influence. Me? Saw him live 4 times and was blown away each and every time. Last concert I saw he shared lead duties with "my little Italian virtuoso". It was about 81 and no-one had heard of Vai yet. I too heard the story of how Vai transcribed "black pages" (if memory serves) and sent it to FZ. The first step to stardom. I mis the crazy bastard.

Here is a link to his senate testimony: http://www.joesapt.net/superlink/shrg99-529/p51.html

It's cool that Al Gore was a fan and knew who the mothers were. It's also odd that he does little to defend FZ's attack on his own wife.

[cre2403]

OK, I'll have to admit, I haven't delved deep into Zappa's catalogue. But I'm a pretty big Genesis fan, and 3 Sides Live and Abacab were the first Genesis albums I had, so they've got a special place in my heart...

Seriously, rent Baby Snakes and then come back and tell me you'd take Genesis any day...................

[Rickenjangle]

Seriously, rent Baby Snakes and then come back and tell me you'd take Genesis any day...................

rent? Is there a DVD? OK, I'll try to put my hands on some Zappa. Never let it be said that I'm close-minded. Who knows, maybe I'll like it...How about people give me the top 3 (not necessarily the most accessible, but the top 3 most important) and I'll try to see what you're all talking about. Who knows, maybe I'll learn something...


But I'll bet I'd still choose Genesis...

[cre2403]

see my previous review of Baby Snakes in this thread. I believe its the best live performance Zappa ever recorded. We rented from Netflix. Start there, you will get a great intro to Frank's best material and one of the best touring bands he ever put together.

There are other DVD live performances that are good - I would recommend " Does Humor Belong in Music?" if you want more.......

[KevinWaide]

I love Joe's Garage. One of my all-time favorite albums. "Wet T-Shirt Night", "Crew Slut" (it looks just like a Telefunken U-47), "Why Does It Hurt When I Pee?", "Stick It Out", the whole album has you laughing all the way through.
Don't get no jizz upon the sofa, sofa! LMAO

[Kap'n]

As mentioned, Joe's Garage is pretty accessible, it tells a story, and it contains one of his best instruments, Watermelon in Easter Hay.

I usually forget it, because my copy is on vinyl, and I'm too lazy to play it anymore.

Trivia - Fembot in a Wet T-Shirt is titled on early copies of the album as Toad-O Line. Somebody musta had an issue with that.....

[Rickenjangle]

I'll try to rent Baby Snakes, then. Thanks.

[NeoFauve]

As mentioned, Joe's Garage is pretty accessible, it tells a story, and it contains one of his best instrumentals, Watermelon in Easter Hay.

It plays over the credits at the end of Y Tu Mama Tambien.
A great thing to hear on a theatre sound system as the place empties out.

[teleman1]

He would have rolled over John Bonham like a steamroller and left him twitching on the ground.

cre2403- An accurate statement reguarding Terry Bozzio-

Bonham is way overatted,but not as much as Jimmie Page,who is by far no Jeff Beck

[Annie D.]

Zappa was the musical "shock jock" of his time.


I was heading to San Francisco with my non-approved boyfriend, the day after my high school graduation, when "I'll go to Frisco catch the crabs and take a bus back home..." came on the radio. (radio was different in the old daze, boyz n gurlz). I laughed so hard I slipped off the plastic seats. Loved him ever after.

Then I had to play "Zappa" tunes with a roving group for 5 weeks, ala the musician's union. I had to "read" every night. Far different than the Jimmy Wakelys and others I usually did blindfolded, asleep at the wheel &/or plowed, just so's I could stand to do it: and could easily do it well.

I gots Uncle Meat and a few others in vinyl. Primo condition. Both records. Not for sale.

He wuz the Felix the Cat of music, at the time. What's not to love?

Sure made me laugh a lot.

[doc540]

SUZY????

[Kap'n]

What's got into ya?

[djinn1973]

Frank was, above all, a composer and should be judged as such.

I think that two centuries ago he would have been regarded as our Mozart.
And as others have stated he did have an ability to find and develop talent, I mean if it were just Steve Vai, or just Mike Keneally, or just Terry Bozzio, or just George Duke, or just.. Then I could see putting it down to happenstance.
That being said I have to admit that arriving at an appreciation of FZ's music took a bit of effort on my part.

[Kap'n]

I think that two centuries ago he would have been regarded as our Mozart.

I think FZ would have resented any comparision to Mozart. Sure, he was just as prolific, but I think he would have preferred comparision to the bogus pomp of Bach.

Is this old thread week, or what?

[NTBluesGuitar]

Is this old thread week, or what?

I was just thinking the same thing.

[Plugger]

I like FZ, but I also think he is wildly overrated. I suppose terms like "genius" have become so debased now to become almost meaningless, but to compare FZ to Mozart... I mean, really.

Sure he was _prolific_, as was Mozart, but put a man on a straight diet of sardines and prune juice for a week, and he will also be _prolific_. It's about quality as well as quantity of what you produce that matters (and that also extends to number of notes you can squeeze into a "black" page.)

-Mark

[NeoFauve]

I think FZ would have resented any comparision to Mozart. Sure, he was just as prolific, but I think he would have preferred comparision to the bogus pomp of Bach.

At least FZ never referred to himself as "the 21st Cetury's NEW Beethoven," in a manner that made him seem as if he had rabies.
Not that I know of.

[Kap'n]

but to compare FZ to Mozart... I mean, really.

You're right. I much prefer Zappa's music to the bulk of Mozart's output.

[Plugger]

You're right. I much prefer Zappa's music to the bulk of Mozart's output.

Well, that might be true, but it doesn't really speak to the issue of whether the two are comparable figures in the history of music in any serious way.

As I say, I like FZ. I also like Shakespeare, and I also like Stan Lee.

If a person says "I like Stan Lee's comics better than the bulk of Shakespeare's output", I'm fine with that. But if a person might say "Stan Lee is the Shakespeare of our age", I might have trouble taking that person seriously. At least when it comes to literature.

-Mark

[Kap'n]

Well, in that context...

Mozart will always be looked at as more important because his music came earlier, unprecendented. You can't discount the "older = better" train of thought in the orchestral music world.

However, his overbearing melodicism makes me feel that Kenny G or Paul McCartney is the Mozart of the 20th century.

[Plugger]

The "overbearing melodicism" to which you refer is an understandable interpretation from a 21st century listener's perspective. Not the only one, of course, but quite understandable given the 21st century ear is not the 18th century ear. We've all heard Mozart, and a lot more besides. About nine hundred years ago, _plainsong_ was the state of the art in western music harmonization. From plainsong to FZ in 900 years shows an astounding rate of development of the concept even of what music can be, I think.

The thing about Mozart is that they had to invent the Romantic movement after he came along. He more or less perfected the classical form as it was understood up to that point, and didn't leave a lot for anyone else to do, unless it was more of the same, just not nearly so well. So what happens? Subsequent composers had to change the rules of the game just to stay in the game. Well, that's my take, anyway.

Guys like Zappa are important cultural figures of their generation. Guys like Mozart are important cultural figures of western civilization. Different order of magnitude. Different scale of impact.

-Mark

[Kap'n]

From that perspective, DaVinci was the only true inventor, and folks like Edison, Franklin, Lavoisier, Preistley, Armstrong and Einstein were just blips on the map.

And there weren't any real artists after the invention of photography either.