No Crunch!

[TonsofBlues]

Here's a recording question for you. I figure this is right up Gravity Jim's road, but anyone, please give advice.

While guitars247 and I recorded last night, we wrote a song that required the "wall of guitars". Lots of gain, lots of distortion, etc. Coming out of the amps, it sounds great... hell, my ass was vibrating in the chair. But when we recorded it, the distortion just doesn't come across. It sounded more like a fuzz pedal. We doubled and even tripled tracks, seperated into left and right. It was louder, and had more body.. but still fuzzy. Not really the "wall of guitars". We wanted more of a "Sad But True", "Black Dog", Iron Man" sound.

Here's what we recorded with. Dynamic mics (might be the problem right there), mBox, Mac G4, garage band. We tried mixing the direct out off the preamp of the amps with the mic'd sound, but still... poop! Please, any advice. And getting more mics are out of the question right now...

[Kap'n]

Too much distortion can make a mess.

I would recommend backing off on the distortion a bit for recording.

Another trick is to split your signal, and run a track of undistorted guitar. That will add a lot of definition, even if it's mixed low/subaudible.

[Gravity Jim]

I'll take my best guess without actually being there. fezz knows more about getting a great guitar tone than I do, I'll reckon, but here's a start.

If you listen closely to the great, crunchy, monster guitar tones you mention, you'll be amazed to find that there is less distortion on those guitars than you thought there was. Those tones are loud and proud, but they still have plenty of pick attack, lots of string tone, a buttload of the fundamental note... all things that tend to get lost in high gain sounds. Like you say, it sounds more like a fuzz pedal, because the stuff you can hear and feel when the guitar is IN YOUR HANDS is not getting recorded. Doubling and tripling tracks is only gonna make it worse.

You want LESS distortion. Record with less distortion and more natural string tone and see if it doesn't sound miraculously better.

I learned this from spending many, many hours with my POD, learning to make usable tones. Stuff that sounded absolutely awesome when you were playing the guitar all by itself sounded like crap in the mix. I learned to just dial back the drive. Remember, it's supposed to sound like a guitar. A really LOUD guitar, but a guitar.

Or try this: triple the part, with track one balls-out, track 2 with the gain dialed back about 50%, and track 3 absolutely clean. Mix to taste.

Here's an example. This is my cheap-ass fake p-90s PRS into a POD Pro. When I was dialing in the tone, the guitar by itself, I had it melting the voice coils in the monitors. Then when it was time to track, I just pulled the gain back until it sounded good. The rhythm is doubled with one track being both ppups and the other being bridge only, and the lead Strat? Hardly any overdrive at all!

http://www.gravitymusic.com/audio/SoapyRiddim.mp3

There's nothing wrong with a dynamic mic for recording guitars. Just use half as much gain as you think you need.

Edited to add:

And, as soon as I post it, I see that Kap'n has already said the same thing, only much more succinctly.

[guitars247]

GJ- you are now my Obi-wan Kenobi

show me the ways of the force Obi-wan

[Gravity Jim]

Hey, Kap'n said it with more Zen. I'm a chronic over-explainer.

[TonsofBlues]

Thanks you guys... that's why I love TFF, I would never of thought about that (or would of read tons of books before I realized).

I can't wait to get home and give it a try. Gravity, that's amazing! Is that you singin too? Great tune. That's the sound I'm lookin for, just alittle more crunch. Honestly, thanks guys... It's odd how it's just the oppisite of what I thought.

Finally question, any good ideas for setting up mic positions on a cab with a Dynamic mic? I figure the closer the better?

[Gravity Jim]

Yeah, that's me singing, playing all parts except drums (which I edited from Discrete Drums performances by Greg Morrow). That tune was written for an insurance company... it's the theme song of a sales training "radio" show (delivered to the sales force on CD, so they can listen to it in their cars)!!

That IS what's great about TFF... in general, people only post when when they know what they're talking about, so you get good answers right away, instead of getting 50 half-witted replies to sift through.

The reason you mic close is to mitigate room tone. If the room sounds great, mic further out. Or try micing further out if you're playing at high volumes. Walk around the amp while someone is playing and when it sounds great to your ear, put the mic there. (Are we talking about an SM57 here?)

[TonsofBlues]

(Are we talking about an SM57 here?)

Not the 57, but in the same ball park. If it's a dynamic, don't I need to worry about phasing? Normally we play pretty loud to get the tubes to break up. Deluxes and Devilles.

Sometimes I get so pissed... we spend tons of money on all the best guitars, best pick-ups, best computer, best amps, etc. But when I record, it comes out sounding like well, unprofessional.

Don't get me wrong, I've been in broadcasting for awhile, so I'm no stranger to this stuff, but it's the little things that are making it sound like crap. I pan, EQ, etc. Still all for nothing... I'd love 2 pick brains all day. You too Kap'n. even Telecast , Like what about recording vocal... No presence! and so on and so on..

[clayville]

Here's a half-wit post:

MORE COWBELL, GJ!

[Gravity Jim]

clayville, you are spot on. The client wanted to license "Takin' Care Of Business," but with the Office Depot deal, the price was off da hook. Then he asked for "Start Me Up." (You gotta be kiddin'.) Finally we talked him into creating a new song just for the show. The concept was "classic rock radio," and that meant... more cowbell!

TonsofBlues, don't get pissed. It just takes time to get good at this.

We should start a new thread on vocals.

[TonsofBlues]

Aight... Follow me... if you please...

[Kap'n]

That IS what's great about TFF... in general, people only post when when they know what they're talking about, so you get good answers right away, instead of getting 50 half-witted replies to sift through.

I see you've been to Usenet.

On Harmony-Central, you only get 25.

[Gravity Jim]

Hey, did you guys get a chance to track anything new since this? Keep us posted....

[lure555]

I've found that crunchy guitars like less distortion than you'd think and a bit of a bump in the 2-3K range.

[NeoFauve]

Monster Tone Trivia-

The guitar tracks on "Black Dog" were triple tracked & recorded

direct , by running it into a limiter preamp, distorting the stages of it, and then sending that to a normally operating limiter.-according to Andy Johns

[Kap'n]

Monster Tone Trivia-

The guitar tracks on "Black Dog" were triple tracked & recorded

direct , by running it into a limiter preamp, distorting the stages of it, and then sending that to a normally operating limiter.-according to Andy Johns

I always wondered about the tone on that track, even before I played guitar. There are points where they sound very rubbery, particularly during the harmonized parts of the riff.

[TonsofBlues]

I always wondered about the tone on that track, even before I played guitar. There are points where they sound very rubbery, particularly during the harmonized parts of the riff.

What do you mean "rubbery"? Good or bad... it sounds like it would be bad.

[Kap'n]

What do you mean "rubbery"? Good or bad... it sounds like it would be bad.

No, "rubbery" was a name I came up with before I knew what was going on. It's got to do with the envelope (compression), and the snarl that the guitar makes.

[NeoFauve]

When I was a kid , I just thought Black Dog was wickedest, dirtiest sound a guitar could make, and would approach it with my trusty Distortion+.
But it really is pretty crisp.
I noticed that much later, maybe once I got LZIV on CD.
When I read Page's and later Andy John's description of how they did it, I couldn't believe it.
Page just said direct in some interview.
I can't claim to understand what limiters do, but while attending "Media Arts" school, one day we did this thing where we just ran the board's A440 tone through compressors and limiters, and yielded some freaky scfi-fi-ish results.
I couldn't beleive what we made happen with just a boooooooooop...
sound.
I have a cassette of it somewhere.

That watery sound you hear on Beatles tracks sometimes came from limiters too. (Again from things I've read.) Clapton's solo on "WMGGW" got the treatment, to make it sound more "Beatlesy."

Anyway, I guess the bottom line is, preserve some detail to your sound and it'll be better able to jump out at you.

[Kap'n]

That watery sound you hear on Beatles tracks sometimes came from limiters too. (Again from things I've read.) Clapton's solo on "WMGGW" got the treatment, to make it sound more "Beatlesy."

I believe that was "automatic double tracking" (ADT). Sort of a mechanical method of generating chorus, using tape.

[Gravity Jim]

I thought the "watery" sound you heard on Beatle records all the time was the result of Leslie abuse. I'll have to go break out my copy of The White Album.

I agree that Black Dog is the baddest riff ever. It's one of my Guitar Store Top Ten. :)

[Kap'n]

I thought the "watery" sound you heard on Beatle records all the time was the result of Leslie abuse. I'll have to go break out my copy of The White Album.

Yet another Beatle "wobbly" trick is to put a piece of adhesive tape on the capstan roller.

[chuckocaster]

i had one thing i wanted to add. i've found that when you go to double or triple track a guitar you should try to make them sound a little different. either eq them on the board, or fiddle with the knobs on the amp. get the basic sound you want, and then either make the other(s) more mid heavy or brite or darker, or whatever can make it stand out a little. it makes it sound thicker beings that you aren't doubling up on the frequencies. it doesn't really need to be radical on the eq, but make sure it's enough to make them somewhat distinquishable. i've never felt that a simple double track sounds any bigger, sure the timing is going to different on each take, but that's only timing, not really filling more sonic space. YMMV.

[Rickenjangle]

It amazes me how many classic guitar tracks were recorded direct through limiters and stuff. I drool over Roger McGuinn's 12 string Rickenbacker tone every time I hear it, and it was fed through 2 tube compressor/limiters, IIRC, direct into the board. It sounds better than any live Ric 12 I've ever heard...plus, some of Gilmour's solos were recorded direct.

As for distortion, listen carefully to Malcolm Young's guitar tracks on any AC/DC CD. By today's standards, they're practically clean. But oh, boy, do they sound CRUNCHY!

[Rickenjangle]

We should start a new thread on vocals.

As in, the recording of...?

I'm always fascinated by that. Recently, in the studio, my vocals were recorded with great clarity and presency by one of those Dragonfly mics...

[nabskater]

Recently, in the studio, my vocals were recorded with great clarity and presency by one of those Dragonfly mics...

Haha well for $800 i would hope that its clear....

But yeah i agree that distorted guitar is hard to convey how you actually hear it, but thanks for the advice guys. I have some stuff to use for my next project.

[curtisstetka]

TFF is the sland. I love learning about this stuff from the pros. Amazing! Thanks for sharing, gentlemen. GJ - rocking track!

I don't know much about anything but I'm realizing that getting a good live sound and getting a good recorded sound are two entirely different problems and take an entirely different approach. Weird!

I guess it's not so weird when you consider that the human ear is going to perceive something differently than a mic's diaphragm. It's just odd that the ultimate target is the human ear but the sound has to travel some vastly different territory to get there.

[Gravity Jim]

So? What happened? Did you guys get some better tracks?

[TonsofBlues]

Still workin on it.. actually since we last talked, we have been really focused on our live sound and getting tight. When we bring in other players, we want to be dead on...

We switch off, one week... we play in the basement for the live gig feel (PA, cranked amps, etc) and the next week, we go up stairs and record again. As soon as we get back up stairs (saturday, more than likely), you'll be the first to hear it... You da man, Jim!