Behringer Tube Overdrive TO800 & Ibanez TS808

[wstandis]

I heard a rumor that Behringer was being sued by Ibanez because they copied the infamous TS808 part by part? They are still availabe and seem pretty attractive at a street price of $25 vs. $175.

Any input?

[fezz parka]

The word is Behringer reverse engineers everything they make. That being said, 25 bucks is pretty cheap for a stomp box.

[Kap'n]

As a manufacturer, you can save a lot of money by not having to design from the ground up.

The rumour I heard, true or false, was that Behringer was asked by Roland/Boss's legal team not to release the pedals. I'm guessing because of trade dress issues. We'll see if anything comes of that.

[chuckocaster]

behringer SUCKS! end sentence, period.

[wstandis]

Dude do they totally suck? huh huh huh?

I realize they do not have the build quality as the 808, however for a basement player/jammer that does not transport gear in a duffle bag every night, it might be a bargain.

There is a market for everything.

[fezz parka]

Like I said above, for 25 bucks it's a cheap alternative.

As far as there being a market for everything, yeah you're right.

[fezz parka]

Here's a better alternative: Arion Tubulator

There's bad mojo with Behringer stuff. That, and I believe this uses the same chip as the 808...

[photoweborama]

Here's a better alternative: Arion Tubulator

There's bad mojo with Behringer stuff. That, and I believe this uses the same chip as the 808...

I've got three of them, and yes, they use the same JRC chip.. SEE..

If course I have that great new TS9DX chucko gave me...

[curtisstetka]

I dunno, guys. I'm torn on this. Stealing somebody else's intellectual property is just plain illegal and morally wrong.

At the same time, Music123 has all these things with free shipping. I put together an order of 6 pedals for $109.95 shipped to my door. Six pedals for the cost of one????? All with a 45 day return policy????

Plus, I've never had a flanger pedal but I'd always been sorta curious. I'm not going to shell out $100 for one just to satisfy curiousity and have a pedal that I otherwise have no real use for. But for $19.99? Same with their Big Muff clone.

I'm gonna get them. Sorry, Chuck. Don't hate me because I buy cheap pedals.

[Gravity Jim]

its no rumor. Getting sued is what Behringer does instead of hiring R&D guys. Thanks to the German courts, it's way cheaper.

There would be no moral problem for anyone, if the freakin' US Government would do one simple thing:

Make it law that if you do not abide by US IP laws (copyright, trademark, service mark, etc.) then you don't get to sell your crap in the US. This bullshit of letting companies like Behringer swipe other people's expensive R&D, and then the Feds just stand there ringing their hands ("gee, I dunno, they're a German company, we have to abide by what the German courts would do") is horseshit.

It should be set up thusly. Behringer, until you are willing to follow US criteria, then get out. Go peddle your cheap shit in China, but you're not selling it here.

I like Fezz's idea. Better quality, lo price, not a total rip-off. Good call.

[ziess]

Besides the fact that they're built like tissue boxes and they're total ripoffs of other companies products, the 'Tube Overdrive' pedal sounds great. I bought one, took it home and was amazed at the sounds it produced.
However, it was seriously killing my clean tone so I took it back and bought an Ibanez. Twice the price but hey, I don't want to pay £20 to make my amp sound like a Peavey!
I suppose you can't really expect true bypass for £20 and the Behringer certainly doesn't deliver on that point...

[wstandis]

I went with the Fulltone FD2....... Supported the USA boys..... and damn does it sound good

[photoweborama]

Well, I vote for the Arion Tubulator. Like I said, I have three of them.
If you guys want, I'll do a head to head test with the Tubulator and the Tubescreamer TS9DX.

But if nobody cares, I won't spend the time.

[dlmorley]

http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/...isual-aid.html

My take...
Behringer is the easiest company to pick on...
Mackie sued and lost (in a US court)
No German court stuff going on here....that's bull.
Mackie ripped off Tascam. Tascam didn't bother.
Mackie sue Behringer over a product they based on a tascam product (they just made it cheaper and it looked different) and lost.
In the US, Publicity is what counts. Sue, even if you lose you have spread some negative vibes.
Gibson and the PRS singlecut.
Boss didn't sue, they said they would. Behringer changed the shapes. No issue any more. Do you really think they need to reverse engineer an OD pedal???
All the circuits are out there and available.
The sad thing is Behringer made some incredibly good and unique products....but people want the cheap stuff that is based on other gear
they do steal concepts but, let's not get all high and mighty and pretend they are alone. Most gear is "borrowed" from somewhere else or do you think every OD pedal is totally different.

I'm going to grab the OD pedal. Maybe if Behringer sell enough, boss will lower their high prices ;)

[Kap'n]

Maybe if Behringer sell enough, boss will lower their high prices ;)

Well. I'm of the impression that Boss gear is reasonably priced, reasonable sounding gear. Nothing sounds spectacular, but it's very rugged, giggable stuff.

The Behringer stuff is made, in general, with the cheapest quality components, in the cheapest possible cases. You get what you pay for. If it's just a toy around the house, it'll probably work OK. Just don't expect it to sound great.

[wstandis]

if it is the same guts why wouldnt it sound as great as the originals? duribillity aside?

[Kap'n]

if it is the same guts why wouldnt it sound as great as the originals? duribillity aside?

Quality of components.

Bread is bread. What's the difference between pumpernickel and Wonderbread? It's all just flour, yeast and water.

[dlmorley]

Quality of components.

Bread is bread. What's the difference between pumpernickel and Wonderbread? It's all just flour, yeast and water.

Well, you like one and maybe others prefer the other! I'm not arguing what is technically better. I'm sure pumpernickel is healthier but if you prefer wonderbread, no problem.

Guitar mag in the UK just tested them (not pumpernickel vs Wopnderbread but the Behringer stompboxes ;) ).
They said the Tremelo was better than the Boss and they loved the OD pedal and said every guitarist should check the OD out.
Personally, I don't judge things on price, as there are many very cheap items that perform better than more expensive ones.
I think Behringer buys components in such quantity that they are buying decent enough stuff.
If I was touring the world, I'd not use a behringer, but for in the studio and at home, why not!
The end result is that if people try them and say they sound fine (as has been written) for what they are, I don't see a problem.

[dlmorley]

Just don't expect it to sound great.

I don't expect anything from any bit of gear until I hear it.
Maybe check the OD out and see what you think. I'm pretty sure you have convinced yourself it won't sound good, so fine, you may as well not bother, but quitye a few reviews have been very positive. Sure it's cheap, but the most expensive things on these kind of units are the cases and hardware. Save money on that and you have a much cheaper (but probably less roadworthy) pedal.

[LostDog]

its no rumor. Getting sued is what Behringer does instead of hiring R&D guys. Thanks to the German courts, it's way cheaper.

There would be no moral problem for anyone, if the freakin' US Government would do one simple thing:

Make it law that if you do not abide by US IP laws (copyright, trademark, service mark, etc.) then you don't get to sell your crap in the US. This bullshit of letting companies like Behringer swipe other people's expensive R&D, and then the Feds just stand there ringing their hands ("gee, I dunno, they're a German company, we have to abide by what the German courts would do") is horseshit.

It should be set up thusly. Behringer, until you are willing to follow US criteria, then get out. Go peddle your cheap shit in China, but you're not selling it here.

OUCH !!!! Have you ever thought about the possibility of a German company getting sued in the US as they are doing business there - that's what happens all the time. And the US IP laws are not that much straighter than the German or International ones. And have you ever thought about the prices we would have to pay for our equipment if every single design was reserved for the original inventor ? What about all those do-it-yourself amp kits ?

But don't get me wrong - I do not like the Behringer stuff either, and as a company lawyer I am in the wonderful position to have a little bit of money to spend on "Originals". But there are thousands of students or low income people who can not afford a Fender Strat, a Gibson Les Paul or an Ibanez 808 pedal.....shouldn't they be enabled to get at least something "like the original" ?

[Kap'n]

OUCH !!!! Have you ever thought about the possibility of a German company getting sued in the US as they are doing business there - that's what happens all the time.

Yep. And the frivolous nature of many US personal injury lawsuits, and that German law often makes corporate owners personally liable to pay them keeps many German companies leery of selling in the US.

Behringer doesn't actually do any manufacturing in Germany, do they?

[LostDog]

That's right.

Behringer have their head office in Germany (and according to press releases also their R+D Depeartment ;) ) but they are producing in China. That is the main reason for their low prices, if those pedals and stuff were made in Germany the prices would be at least 3 times higher

[Gravity Jim]

I hate getting into these kinds of discussions online, but I feel I need to explain.

Mackie did not lose their suit against Behringer, they won - just as Aphex and dbx won their suits against Behringer. Under US law, Mackie could have forced Behringer to cease production of the offending items. But the US abides by the law of the company's home, in this case Germany, and Germany only requires (if you are found guilty of infringement) that you pay a royalty to the people you stole from. The royalty is obscenely low, and in no way compensates the company that actually created the design for their lost sales. Behringer is still paying these nickels to Mackie, Aphex, dbx and maybe others for all I know.

This is how it was explained to me by people who actually work in the MI industry. So the "German court stuff" isn't "bull." It is, as far as I can be certain, a fact.

Also, there is much more to Behringer's low price than cheap labor. They reproduce the designs using the cheapest, most inconsistent parts they can buy, because they know that the people who buy their gear can't hear the difference... they are aiming their stuff at the home recordist or hobbyist who has never owned or poerated a compressor and imagines that buying one will fix his or her mix problems. Uli Behringer knows that you will buy his junk, use it until you learn what you're doing, and then get rid of it.

Finally, I don't see how Mackie's 8-buss mixing boards (the product in question here) was somehow copied from a similar 8-buss Tascam. I've used both mixers extensively, having a Tascam 2000 series in my own studio and being forced to work on Mackies in every small studio I worked in 10 to 15 years ago. The routing schemes could not be more different... the only thing they have in common is that they both pass audio.

But all that aside, it comes down to Behringer's own laughably-ironic slogan: "Just Listen." (Yeah, I know, that's supposed to convince you that you should ignore all the bad press and Let Your Ears Be Your Guide). When I was building my own studio and needed a compressor for the vocal chain, a friend tried to sell me his Behringer Composer (a copy of a dbx 166). I had it for two weeks, and it was the worst sounding piece of crap in life... it pumped and wheezed and squashed everything you ran through it... it even screwed up the sound in Bypass mode, and that is no exaggeration. It had absolutely no usable setting. I gave to back to him and bought a dbx 166, which worked very nicely. The difference isn't Chinese labor: it's that the Behringer uses dirt cheap VCAs that will not react fast enough for the application.

So, yeah, "Just Listen" is good advice.

[LostDog]

Jim,

I will not start a legal discussion with you as this is not the place, but I do not agree to your statements on German and US IP law at all.

And secondly, it is not your intention to say that there is no difference between German and Chinese labour costs, is it ? 'Cause that would be absolutely nonsens - it's mainly the cheap labour costs, the cheap material and mass production that allows them to make their prices as they are.

[Mikey]

I hear y'all. I don't know exactly where I stand on the Behringer "junk" thing and them ripping off other companies and thus stealing IP or worse. In my heart of hearts I think Behringer is doing something ethically and morally wrong but I don't really know that. I have to call up the many amp kit manufacturers and ask the same questions. Should we sue all of them as well? They are doing the same thing in my mind.
Look, as a part-timer in this world of music, I will never make enough money to quit my day job. But..... I like to play music for people and provide a fun time for them. I also get an incredible high from doing it. However it cost money in equipment to do this. I can't afford to pay whatever company X wants to charge me for their equipment. I just plain can't afford it. I like all the high-end gear but will never own any of it just because I don't have the money. Therefore I buy the best I can to meet the need I have for the band at the time. Sometimes it's Behringer equipment, sometimes, it's Yamaha, or mackie, or Crown. It's whatever is the best I can afford at the time. I got tired of renting out a Mackie mixing board and Crown amp for every gig, so I ssaved up enough cash to get a Behringer Powered mixer. Yes, I knew all about the MI bad mouthing going on and the concerns of poor reliability etc. BTW: I've never heard any bad-mouthing coming from folks like me, it is always from someone who dosen't have to use it to get by. They all own the "better" stuff. OK, Fine.
I will say this though; When we started using the Behringer Powered mixer instead of the rented high-end stuff. Not one person in the audience complained about the crappy sound, and no one in the band complained either. Now we did use a Rogue power amp to run the monitors for a time and I just bought the Crown amp to replace it. There is a difference in the sound quality. The Crown sounds better.
From my perspective, Behringer made it possible for our band to make some music, entertain some people & save some money, .

Back on topic..... Buy the one you like and can afford. If you don't like the cheap one, save up and buy the expensive one....or do both.

[Kap'n]

I have to call up the many amp kit manufacturers and ask the same questions. Should we sue all of them as well? They are doing the same thing in my mind.

There is a difference. I can't think of any amp kits that are based on circuits that are less than forty years old, most of them are nearly fifty.

Even if the circuits were patented, which I don't believe they were, current US patent law only protects for twenty years, afterwards the circuits fall into public domain as something "obvious to one schooled in the art." If patent law protected designs forever, technology would never move forward. If not, I'd like to be the heir to the the people who invented the wheel, the lever and the pulley.

[LostDog]

From my perspective, Behringer made it possible for our band to make some music, entertain some people & save some money, .

Back on topic..... Buy the one you like and can afford. If you don't like the cheap one, save up and buy the expensive one....or do both.

Mikey, that's what it's all about for us musicians, I could not have it phrased better !!!! And the rest is up that damn lawyers ;)

[Gravity Jim]

LostDog - I said that low labor costs were not the ONLY reason why Behringer stuff is cheap. It's ALSO cheap because it's made out of junk. This is not the same as saying there is no difference between Chinese and German labor costs.

As for the legal discussion, as I say, I was told this by people who I think should know. It may be overstating the fact to say that Mackie "won" the suit: there was in fact no judgement in a court, as the suit was settled out of court. Mackie said at the time that while the setttlement was confidential, they were pleased with the result, and the industry did notice that the Behringer MX8000 was taken off the market in the US shortly afterward. Aphex and dbx did not fare so well... you can still buy a Composer anywhere.

[curtisstetka]

I think where this really gets into the "morally if not legally wrong" territory is the way that Behringer has completely ripped off the appearance of these effects as well as the internals. I mean, take a .5 second look at that Vintage Distortion thing and it's CLEAR that it's intended to make you think of the Big Muff. The box cosmetics are almost exactly the same. The same holds true for all their other offerings - they used the same colors as Boss.

I did not order the pedals the other day and the rest of this thread has made me pause and change my mind. I'm not bothered by all this talk of Behringer being "junk" because my band used Behringer PA equipment for a while with fine results. Besides, I'm one of those guys who can't afford to drop $200 on the "real deal". I have no problem paying $20 for a pedal and adjusting my expectations accordingly. I just can't support the clear intellectual property infringement that Behringer is doing.

[photoweborama]

Their Tubescramer type pedal is even lime green like the real Tubescreamer.

The only thing I've found is that I seem to pickup radio stations if I don't have a pedal with a metal case. I don't think that is a problem everywhere, but I think is is here.

I was working on a low range FM wireless system here and it had almost no range. Everywhere else, I could pick up the signal for a couple of blocks. Found out we are just too close to a few transmission towers.

[Gravity Jim]

Curtis, when I say it's "junk," I should point out that I have no experience with any Behringer gear except their MX8000 mixers and a long list of their studio processors (rack-mount kind of stuff), and that's the stuff I know is junk. These pedals may be the sland.

But you made the right call. Bad mojo is what it is. :)

Years ago when my wife and I were new homeowners with two boys under the age of 3 and not a cent to spare, my lawnmower died, and a friend of Lisa's shady brother offered to get us one for less than $50... he made it clear that the mower would be stolen. We agonized over it, and finally decided that it would bother us every time we ever used the machine, so we told him no, thanks.

[curtisstetka]

Yeah, Jim, you're right. It's like half a step away from taking delivery of stolen goods. Principle is more important than cheap pedals.

They've gone beyond using well known designs that are de facto public domain. They're clearly cashing in on other manufacturers' advertising and reputation to promote their products.

[Mikey]

Not to add to the argument, but I was thinking about this at lunch. As you may know, I just went through replacing a furnace et.al. and before that a dishwasher, counter top and backsplash. Went though some roofing and basement problems last year, and on it goes.
The thing that got me was that I bought this freakin house and over the years I had to rebuild or replace or fix just about everytihng in the place. I was whining about to a neighbor the other day and he said something that made sense. He asked what I paid for the house (1900 sq.ft.) I told him 53K back in 79. He asked if I looked at any other houses, I said yes. He asked how much they were. I told him, all in the same price range except one that was 125K for 2000 sq. ft.. Whoa! I couldn't afford that one. He pointed out that I've spent that much in repairing and fixing mine right? I said yes.
He asked who built my home. I told him and he replied that I should be glad for them because if they hadn't built the big house using cheaper stuff and taking shortcuts, I wouldn't have been able to afford it and would have probably been living in a trailer park.
I thought about it and realized he was right. I guess I'm not so ticked at my builder now because he allowed me to buy a house big enough for my needs and make it better as I could afford it. Which is what I did.
Now, the Behringer powered amp is working fine for me now at 299 and if Behringer weren't available I wouldn't have it because I couldn't afford the 1100 dollar Mackie or whatever. I'd still be renting a system for every gig. Yep! the rented stuff is better quality, but no one can hear the difference. When I get the money, I suppose I can upgrade if I want to, or I can get some cheap stage lighting instead of renting it until the Behringer dies and I have to repair or replace it with something better.
No, I prefer to look at Behringer as providing a service to all the strugglers out there.
Hey! The trailer park gets old fast. I'd rather live in the suburbs than in the trailer park or rent a condo downtown. Thank you.

[NeoFauve]

The more I find out, the less I want help finance all the corners that cut in the knock-off industry.
I read recently something like 20,000 coal miners died in a year oor tha last 5 years(?), providing the raw material to electrify the Made In China Bargain and Convenience Industry. I guess it's seen as just the cost of doing business.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4049253.stm
We spent moments mourning 11 here. :toobad
There's the bad mojo for me.
A 21st century idustrial economy is being ramped up as if the human race had learned nothing from, and hasn't advanced since the first industrial revolution. There are scores of invisible people needlessly risking their necks to make it way too easy for me.

If I really need a gizmo, I can save up, or buy the real thing, used. I'm just not of the opinion that I inately deserve the techno-bounty.
My informal 2005 resolution is for my wallet to have a concience.
Down with bad mojo,:nay

[Mikey]

Neo, you mean 2006, right?

[NeoFauve]

Neo, you mean 2006, right?

I also want to experience time travel.

[curtisstetka]

The truth of the matter is that labor is cheap in China and expensive in America for a reason. There's no EPA in China. There's no OSHA in China. There are no labor unions. There's no social security, workman's compensation, and on goes the list.

These pedals RETAIL for $19.95 including shipping. They came all the way from China, for crying out loud! And still several parties along the way are making a profit on them.

[NeoFauve]

Me too!

FYI:The market's been flooded with dirt cheap Indonesian flux capacitors.

[Kap'n]

FYI:The market's been flooded with dirt cheap Indonesian flux capacitors.

How else are we going to go back to the days of feudalism?

[NeoFauve]

How else are we going to go back to the days of feudalism?

Wavin' at the serfs from a stainless steel DeLorean, listening to some Huey Lewis would be sweet.:wail2