So did anybody ever get a clear idea of what the Altoid box was all about?
So did anybody ever get a clear idea of what the Altoid box was all about?
The Altoids box is a Fuzz box, I've built one before. They are really cool!! My wife bought a gag gift for my son, a lump of coal:Originally Posted by RedRoom
It'll be a fuzz box by NYE!!
Oh, and by the way. I'm not being judgemental TBF. To quote myself:
"....I'm just joking because I've been playing out for years and have shared the stage with 100's of Rock bands and have yet to come across a board like that."
It's quite a pedal board, no matter who you are or where you play. The joke title/thread is WWJD perhaps was pretty weak. But I can tell you honestly, my intent was lighthearted. I'm glad I didn't offend you Telebluesfan, it certainly was not my intention.
Fuzz is proof God love us and wants us to be happy. - Franklin
http://www.frankdenigris.com
I know - nor was it mine. And I hope I didn't offend you. I probably should have kept my nose out of it.But I can tell you honestly, my intent was lighthearted. I'm glad I didn't offend you Telebluesfan, it certainly was not my intention.
Have a very Happy Holiday/Christmas/Hanakkah/whatever you celebrate, Frank. :)
Merry Christmas to you too!!
Fuzz is proof God love us and wants us to be happy. - Franklin
http://www.frankdenigris.com
It's kind of a slippery slope trying to apply the tenets of Zen Buddhism to New Testament Biblical quotes. The fit is uneasy at best. I remember thinking a little bit about this when I read "Zen and the Art of Archery" for a lit class.
You got THAT right, though.
Happy Holidays, all!
"I'm gonna find myself a girl
that can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams..."
This thread reminds me of a song that came out about the time Jim Baker and Tami Fay were making news. I don't quite remember the whole song but the phrase I do remember was "Would Jesus where a Rolex on his Television Show" I'm not comparing expensive musical grear to a Rolex watch, I posted this more as a funny aside. I would play more expensive guitars in church myself, if I could afford them. The thing is the problem with TV evangelists (some of them anyways) at the time was they seemed to be doing what they were doing for themselves, and not for God. This goes back to motive again. If you're doing it for you, you'll turn people off. If you're doing it for God it will be more appreciated. Musicians, even church musicians, have big egos. It's hard when you play or sing something really well not to want to be acknowledged for it. As long as we remember where our musical gifts came from, and why we are there we can keep things in the right prospective.
There was something that has happened with our contemporary service that actually bothers me. The band does an opening number (sort of a call to worship) it's normally upbeat and something that we have really worked on and gotten down well. People actually started clapping after the oppening number. Some of the group seems to appreciate and welcome the applause, I'm still a little bothered by it. I would actually like to see us get away from this type of openning to the service, and do more things that the congregation can sing along with. I actually play for another Lutheran Church on Saturday afternoons, and they open that way and I like it better, becuase there isn't the applause. It feels more worshipful. I also help out playing at a conference wide youth service once a month (since the youth guitarist they had last year is away at college, and they have't found a replacement).
I don't use pedals in church as a matter of musical preference (I use the acoustic most of the time, a lot of what we do has more of a country flavor to it), other than a tuner I only own an overdrive and a chorus pedal. I don't have a problem with anyone using whatever gear fits the musical style they're going for. The important aspect of Christian music is to inspire people to worship God. As long as your church playing doesn't turn into a big look at me fest, see how great I am. It's all good!! We do try to select music with lyrics that reinforce the readings and the message for the week (which isn't always easy, but we give it our best shot). The music isn't the focus of the "worship" service. It's an integral part of most Christain worship, but the main focus should be the God we worship. Hope this doesn't seem too preachey. I'm sure that all of us here that play in church have our hearts in the right place, and are doing it for the right reasons.
Regarding the lack of the mention of music as a part of worship in the new Testament: One thing to consider at the time that the new testament was written the church was persecuted, John wrote many of his letters that were later included in the Bible from prison. The church had to meet in secret. Drawing attention to themselves with a lot of instruments and loud singing probably wasn't something they would consider doing under those circumstances. Thankfully we live in countries where this isn't a problem for us. We should celebrate and exercise this freedom to worship in a way we hope fits in with God's wishes.
Ray
Great thread; you can't always do this on other forums!
I'm Catholic and a paid Music Director at my parish. One thing I like about being Catholic is the role music plays in the Mass; that is, song is prayer. All prayer is directed to God; the equipment is not as important as the purpose.
Still, certain licks and riffs are identifiable to certain secular styles of music and the Catholic Church has, rightly IMO, discouraged music within the Mass that sounds like something you might listen to in your car on the way to church.
Why? Because if the music isn't special (what some might call dirge-like, slow or outdated), it becomes commonplace and if prayer (songs or praise) can be found anywhere, why bother looking for it in church? Could be a reason why church attendence is down.
I ran a survey in my parish last fall and roughly 3/4ths wanted traditional hymns. We started a more contemporary youth choir for the approx. 22% who like guitar/folk/contemporary music in church.
If you're looking for a fairly fast read (great humor while remaining informative), I highly recommend Thomas O'Day's Why Catholics Can't Sing!
I started out in a folk-guitar group that steered itself towards P&W. I fully understand the goal of attracting people with good music, but not if the music is so entertaining that it detracts from the Mass (that is to say, people are waiting for the preaching to stop so they can listen to more tunes).
Keep the music more prayer-like and you have a more seamless transition to the prayerfullness that is the Mass (or church service).
Just my .02 cents. But seriously, read O'Day's book!
Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah and a Wonderful New Year to all!
There's no slippery slope or uneasy fit that I can see, Rickenjangle. Almost every word out of Jesus' mouth is a word of Zen. It's all that stuff that comes AFTER Jesus that doesn't fit, especially Paul's political hissy-fit letters trying to hold together the new church under his command and not that wuss Peter's. :)
And there is no doubt in my mind, there is always a little vehicle (lots of rules, rituals, incense, calendar dates, etc.) for the masses, and the Greater Vehicle for those who have had the Gnostic experience, no matter what religion one pursues or what Perfect Master one holds to be The One True Master. To quote Zen master Ummon, "The world is such a wide world, why do you wear the yellow robe and answer the bell?"
Finally, while I don't attend a church (and therefore my opinion has little weight), I agree strongly with thinline. I imagine that the purpose of a church is meditation, growth, enlightenment. But when I see churches that are all rock and roll, big electric bands, preachers bounding onto the stage hollering, "Oh, He is SOOOOOOO goooood!"... well, it doesn't look to me like anyone looking for answers about life and their place in it. It looks like flashy entertainment, where you are just encouraged to feel good about yourself because you picked the right exciting clubhouse to hang out in. I think scared music should sound sacred. I was raised in the Lutheran church, and when you heard that Bach harmonization of "A Mighty Fortress," you knew you were in the Presence and no fooling around.
Interesting discussion.
If you care to get into theology, and we won't delve too deeply here, but I would point out to those of you that asked those questions, that there are very LARGE segments of American Christian churches that allow absolutely NO musical instruments to be used in their worship services and they will point directly to the Bible as a reference. Then there are others that do not allow dancing, drinking, etc., and limit the musical instruments to only piano or organs.
FYI, I took Introduction to Religion in college.
I also have several friends that attend the churches of each of the above groups locally, including a couple with a band.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled station. :ahem
They're REAL anyway.....
I think some of you guys are taking an innocuous thread about using cool gear in church & reading a lot more into it.
Don't we always?
They're REAL anyway.....
Yeah. It's not very Zen
On the contrary... dharma battle is one of the favorite activities of Zen students and masters alike.
I was just saying to Lisa yesterday that one of the things I liked about this forum was that you could occasionally express an actual, adult opinion and it didn't turn into a flame war.
As a Protestant, I can't dispute your results, but there are a whole heap of people attending nondenominational Community Churches that would totally disagree with your parisioners. Many people I interact with would prefer there to be NO traditional hymns. Why? Well, I can only surmise that it stems from the 2 types of people who attend these churches: Those who attended traditional churches in their youth and for whatever reason associated church with boredom, or those who've never been church attenders and like the more lively contemporary worship.
We view worship as it is intended, of course, but contemporary worship carries the added benefit of enticing newer attenders to keep attending until the 'message' has a chance to sink in.
By the way, Gravity Jim, my comments were not meant to be in any way disrespectful to you, and I certainly can't claim to have a fraction of your philisophical knowledge...I never really felt it was necessary --for me -- to delve very deep into other world religions when I had already found something that "worked" for me.
"I'm gonna find myself a girl
that can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams..."
Oh, I didn't take it as disrespectful in any way, RJ... in fact, I found your comments to be remarkably respectful. I was just answering in kind, and I hope you realize that my comments come from a place of respect for your faith, and all faiths, as well.
Gravity, your insights amaze me (in a complimentary way)
do I look like I know what I'm doing?
In following along, It seems some key points are being dropped.
In many "masses" in the christian tradition there are different "parts" of the time spent at the service. It was intended to be a "celebration" and as such was intented to be "fun". "making joyful noises" and all requires musical instrumwnts and even dancing in the biblical readings.
The first section is when the people get together and are thankful to their god and for being alive and together. Then the mood can get a bit somber as the people then remember Jesus in the way that he asked them too. By breaking bread and drinking some wine (together). Thatr rememberence of his suffering and death is not really the time for party like rick and roll. In the catholic mass that time is called "communion" and is the somber time for reflection.
Following that is the reminder that once again, let's be thankful that we are alive and together. Now go out into the world and be happy, show some love and get out of here. That is the rocking out section.
Our church was pretty large and had masses for each type of service people would like to attend. 7:30 am for the quiet somber "old folks mass" 9:00 am was the organ music chior style mass. 10:30 was the "youth mass" with the young folk/rock style and 12 noon was another quiet mass with hymns. I worked the Saturday evening 5:00 mass which was a mix of youth and older folks who liked music and I led the "family folk group" and we did a mix of the same songs the "youth group" did with more bluegrass/folk type stuff and whatever else we felt like doing including traditional hymns or rock.
Jim,
I too was raised and still attend a Lutheran Church. A have a fond place in my heart for Bach's music (also a fellow Lutheran), as well as Luther's Hymns. Were you aware though that Luther lifted the tune for "A Mighty Fortress" from a popular song of his day that was commonly sung in Taverns. Many of what we consider traditional Hymns now were based on popular music style at the time they were written. Luther wanted to put the word of God into the Language of the people, he also broke away from the Gregorian Chant that was the traditional church music of the time, to a style of music that the people were more comfortable with.
It is in this light as a Lutheran that I can very much relate what we are doing musically now to what Luther did back then. I think the content of the lyrics is important, the musical style shouldn't be.
Ray
To me your opinion has far more weight than people who attend church, just as Jesus taught us in The Parable of the Prodigal Son.
"My son," the father said, "you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." (Luke 15:11-32)
Perhaps that is one reason why this discussion is so critical to some. Why it is that people have turned away? Is there anything that is being done to drive people away? And in our efforts to bring people to God, are we reinventing the message?
I do know one thing: big fancy pedalboards freak me out.
I'd just like to take it out a gig just once and watch my gearslut drummer crap his pants. :lol
:hee
The guitar itself kicks enough of my ass. I am a retired fireman...axes used to confuse me until I figured out how the handle thingy worked. No way I could use that much stuff.I do know one thing: big fancy pedalboards freak me out.
For rickenjangle. I have tried within my parish to bridge the circumstances you describe above, regarding the "two types of people" who attend church.
I tried to persuade (for at least 3 years) the minority in my parish that supports "uplifting" P&W style music in the Mass to instead, not attempt to change the essence of the Mass, but rather to hold special concerts or prayer meetings in the Parish Center, perhaps as a place for teens to come on a Friday or Saturday night.
I suggested inviting groups from other parishes, even other denominations, then asking for an "offering" at the door and contributing this money to various charities. Here, rocking music would be the norm and would fit the context of the situation. Slow, traditional hymns would be out of place in this environment.
I got back blank stares! Why do extra work, they eventually asked, when we could just play "newer" music at Mass?
I think I exposed them for what their real issue was. Many of them think the Catholic Mass is boring and needs livening up. They want to change the nature of the Mass to suit their own interests and desires.
Some people join softball leagues or bowl for fun and comraderie; the people I played with did not want an active music ministry, reaching out to others through the music, they wanted a fun time surrounded by a clique of people like themselves. And to that end, by forcing their music on a congregation who clearly wanted to hear traditional hymns, my group's heavy-handed mission became trying to "convert" their fellow parishoners to become fans of P&W music.
Like I said above, they had a purpose other than being part of a music ministry.
Thinline, I can see where you're coming from and also am aware that the Catholic Church (having subbed at Catholic churches on both organ and acoustic guitar on a few occasions) has stricter guidlines for what music is suitable for the mass, than some other denominations. The Catholic Missile is full of very great worship music, and is updated frequently. They actually publish new missles and update them much more frequently than the Lutheran church has. Furtunately we are free to include music in the worship service that isn't found in the hymnal, because we get a new hymnal about every 25 years (about the time the old hard bound ones wear out). Your idea that they hold separate praise and worship music events outside of the mass is a great compromise solution, for those that want that type of music. It's too bad they didn't take you up on the offer. If your congregation is happy with the music in the masses (which I'm sure they are) why fix what isn't broken.
I can only speak from the experience that we've seen at our church. We still have a very traditional first service at 9:00 AM and a contemporary service with a praise band at 11:30, I sing and play for both services. We decided to give the congregation a choice. Since we've started the contemporary service attendance has gradually improved at both services. I'm not saying that we've grown exponentially that isn't the case, but after 10 years of having the two services attendance at each service is what we used to get at our one morning service at 10:00 AM. My point is that there are different denominations, and different types of worship music, etc. because not everyone is looking for the same things out of their worship experience. If something works at your church, and something different works at someone elses, then you should all do what works for us. The bottom line is the more people we can get in the door, the more will hear the message.
Ray
Thinline, I wanted to mention that I was speaking in generalities only about the two major types of people I see, specifically, at my own church. There are, of course, far more than 2 types of people who attend church.
I do agree with folk_guy; the Catholic Mass, with the pipe organs and the traditional music and liturgy, is beautiful, so why mess with it? If people are attending there, then obviously they are comfortable with the Mass. Shoot, I still enjoy visiting my parents' church (Christian Reformed Church, in case anyone wonders or cares) because I like singing all the old hymns. They remind me of my Grandfather, who had many special favorites. And, there's nothing like a choir and organ performing Handel's Messiah at Christmastime.
"I'm gonna find myself a girl
that can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams..."
This is a fascinating thread to me, both because I have a "car wreck" fascination/aversion to monster pedalboards, and because I'm learning a lot about the way music is used in different denominations and different churches.
When I was in high school, I used to go to a Catholic church, where they had a "folk rock" type of musical accompaniment. This was in a pretty progressive parish, though; we had altar girls, too, and at the children's mass, all of the children were invited up to join the priest in the Eucharist prayers (with choreographed gestures, etc.). I don't know how unusual that is for Catholic churches, though - sounds like many stick to the choir and organ format.
My opinion of the P&W "controversy" of "is this appropriate for a sacred observance such as a Mass?": how long has it been since Black churches invented gospel music? "Christian heavy metal" leaves me pretty cold (like most of its secular cousin), but for me, you can't beat uptempo gospel for ecstatic passion.
I understand people's concerns about motivation, and about music at church becoming more about the fun than about the ministry. But I've always considered music (both playing and listening) to be one of the most gnostic/mystical, spiritual experiences I've had.
My :2c, FWIW.
Great observation...
It would be a car wreck if I tried to use that pedalboard. Although it would be a pretty handy tool to use in the studio, or if you were the "stunt" guitarist (like Adrian Belew) in a group.
Me too, but back in the halcyon days of hair metal, when Stryper ruled (back when I was in college at Roberts Wesleyan College and so was exposed to such things) there were a few pretty good bands out there (though Stryper was pretty cheesy). You gotta remember too that it was a vehicle to bring the gospel to people who wouldn't have otherwise set foot in a church, and, in that respect, was successful.
"I'm gonna find myself a girl
that can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams..."
That's the bottom line.
As I heard one person say once--"Jesus came and died for me to change my life,not my shirt." Alot of times it isn't injecting the contemporary music into the gospel,but the other way around.Whatever means of communication is out there should be used,whether a granny on a huge cathedral organ or some spiked hair young'un hitting those 3 string power chords on a guitar tuned low enough to beach whales.
As long as they are being THEMSELVES,and not role playing.John Fischer once said that who you are onstage should be an extension of who you are offstage.
Back to the original thread topic---that is a mighty good lookin' pedalboard,and if used judiciously would offer up some tasty sounds.As I said before,look at some of the pedalboard/rack systems that some of the studio guys are using.If there is a sound out there that they might need to emulate,they made sure they had it.
"My flesh and my heart fail...but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever."
PS. 73:26
MY JAMS--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...&content=music
I don't know. I grew up Byzantine Catholic and mass was in Latin, with the priest singing the liturgy and the chorus in the balcony behing us repeating it. Medieval call and response. :hee
It was georgeous -- stunning, really. Add in all the incense -- we used a lot -- and mass was high on the spooky/ritual scale. But it was murder to sit through. I actually looked forward to the sermons because that was something I could relate to. But Vatican II and mass in the venacular never did it for me either. It's even less appealing, to be honest.
But I was always more apt to feel spiritual and connected to something bigger outside of institutions and in the woods, where I often went after mass on Sunday. Only today can I recognize this as ironic.
Since before Africans were Xian. In church was one of the few places where slaves were allowed to be as African as they wanted. Outside of church, all be the most discrete expressions of Africa were forbidden, especially drums. (Hence, the handclapping in Black churches.)
Originally posted by refin:Whatever means of communication is out there should be used, whether a granny on a huge cathedral organ or some spiked hair young'un hitting those 3 string power chords on a guitar tuned low enough to beach whales. As long as they are being THEMSELVES, and not role playing
Good point Refin. If you are being whom God created you to be (in personality, talent, etc.) the style doesn't really matter. God created variety for a reason. I'm sure one of them is because is so immensely creative and the so things wouldn't get boring down here.
Originally posted by Sabby:But I was always more apt to feel spiritual and connected to something bigger outside of institutions and in the woods, where I often went after mass on Sunday. Only today can I recognize this as ironic.
I think that is great you feel more spiritual outside of the church building. Isn't that the way it should be? I'm not saying going to a church service is bad, or to not go, but the point is to live life with God outside the four walls most of us meet in. That's how Jesus impacted the world...by living the example among us and teaching us how to do the same.
"I don't play no cords."
-B.B. King
From the perspective of an athiest who was a practicing Catholic for around 18 months or so, Vatican II seemed to diminish or eliminate the really cool stuff that defined Catholic mass (as opposed to non-Anglican Protestant denominations) - ritual, Latin, modal chant, etc. A visit to large Episcopal church in New Haven gave me a feel of what Catholic mass must have been like in the first half of the last century.
It's all about the sound/visual for me. I guess that's why I'm an athiest.
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
I guess I'd have to go back to the beginning of the thread to realign myself on this - I've been out for a week, and I'm lazy - but IIRC part of the bewilderment of the pedal board was what the application of certain effects might be in praise and worship. Ferinstance, I'd bet many of the non-churchgoers like myself couldn't think of an appropriate use for fuzz in P&W, unless you were playing Spirit in the Sky, something we've been enlightened on. As Franklin pointed out, reverse reverb might not be a commonly used effect, since it's used so often for satanic soundtrack music and voices, but I'd be willing to bet you could get some real etherial sounds from it too, with some work.FWIW - IMO it IS judgemental to make a point of how it's funny that a guy has a $1500 pedalboard for a church gig. Otherwise, why bring it up? I know no on else viewed it that way - so I guess I'm alone on my limb.
Another comment, I think it was FolkGuy, dealt with the Ray Stevens song, Would Jesus Wear a Rolex, and how it relates to the matter at hand. I think it's all a matter of intent - glorification of a higher power, or of the individual. Some churches are very austere in their ornamentation, and in others, every facet of the building and it's contents is a work of art glorifying belief. Both seem to work well for their respective congregations. Maybe Jesus wouldn't wear a Rolex - a personal item, but I don't think he'd have a problem with an ornate clock tower calling folks to worship.
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
I think that I need to change churches. At our Catholic churh, we have a guitar mass once per month. This involves one guy playing chords on a blue plywood Ibanez acoustic and a lady who cannot keep a beat playing the tamborine.
Strangest thing is that we all get really excited.
You guys have it pretty good!
John
Carry On!
John
You'd never guess it around here :ahem, but it's not all about the guitar. It's what you get out of the whole church experience.
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
oh, pc, aye have new respect for you, amigo.I'd just like to take it out a gig just once and watch my gearslut drummer crap his pants.
To me "church" is all about vocal harmonies with a wicked piano.
Sumtimes: no piano and a buncha shape note afficianados.
But I truly adore voices with no instrument.
Aye Surrender All (cleaner than a christian rock group)
Shine your light.
My Mom is Lebanese and we occasionally go to a Maronite Mass. They are done in Arabic and have not changed like the RC Church. They are almost magical is spirit... and LOTS of incense!!!
Our old folk-group was usually two or three guitars and sometimes a bass. There was a guy named Don Sineti who is big on the whaling circuit (yes, there is a whaling circuit) and plays in an Irish whaling and called the Morgans who would sometimes join in with his banjo - he had the most awesome bass voice...
I would add some organ once in a while (not "church" organ) - but we did a couple of gospel-ey songs that used it quite effectively. We had around 5-6 singers - most sang out of tune and sang LOUD!!! What we lacked in talent we made up in spirit - and people loved us! We did the 10:30 Mass every week, Good Friday and Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve. Eventually all the other guitarists moved away and I was stuck doing it by myself.
That was too much for me... I ended up quitting soon after.
"We catched fish and talked, and we took a swim now and then to keep off sleepiness." Mark Twain
Annie I couldn't agree with you more. I go to shape note singing meetings occasionally, just a group of people sitting in a square by voice part singing unaccompanied. The sound is awe inspiring, no sermon, or lessons, or any of the other church service trappings just hours or 4 part singing.
Ray
I like church music with fire.
A Mighty Fortress.
ELP playing "Jerusalem."
Charles Ives harmonizations of the Psalms, wih the men singing in A flat and the women in B flat.
Strummy guitar pop songs that are all about the singer leave me stone cold, whether he's singing about a girl or a god.
WWJD? I can only imagine.
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