Shure SM57 low end buzz?

[nabskater]

Hey guys i just got a Shure SM57 mic off of eBay a few days ago (used) and i cant tell if theres a problem with it or the rest of the setup. I just turned a small closet in my room into an "amp closet" type thing. (see pic) Oh and i have the door (covered with the green foam) closed for recording





The problem is that when i play an A chord (bar) for example,or any other low pitched chord it makes this kind of buzzing sound. Its hard to explain. Like its a part of the sound but the low end kind of turns into a 'buzz' type of thing. This also happens when i put any kind of distortion on. (As you can see from the photos i have a Hot Rod Delux, i play a standard strat thru it) So my question is should i scratch the amp closet or am i flooding the mic and causeing clipping or what? I have tried it with both my MXL 990 condecser mic as well at the SM57 with similar results. My problem is the low end lacks definition and more over, just sounds bad.

Thanks

[ziess]

Ah yes. Welcome to the world of the SM57: the mic that everyone assumes is great when actually it's not.
Have you tried repositioning the mic? The mic looks pretty close to the grillcloth so i'd try backing it off a bit.
You could also try both your mics about 1.5-2" off the grill on opposite sides of the speaker (ie. at the edges) pointed directly at it.
Use the MXL to pick up the low end and the SM57 to get the mids.

[Wilko]

I'm not sure I'd go blaming the mic just yet. Buzzes and other noises are very rarely from the mic.
Check for vibrating shelves are flopping bits of fabric near the mic. Cranking in a tight closet like that opens you up for all kinds of extra crap that an open room won't have. SPL in a confined space is very different than in an open space.

[chuckocaster]

dude, pull that shelf out or throw a couple screws in it.

[BoB/335]

"Ah yes. Welcome to the world of the SM57: the mic that everyone assumes is great when actually it's not."


Since this mic is hyped for a live situation I'm assuming the above comment was for that application. What would be a better recomendation?

[Gravity Jim]

I think that ziess was likely referring to the 57s much-vaunted reputation as The Ideal Mic For Recording Electric Guitar. Someone once said to some music magazine scribe that all you had to do was put a 57 in front of an amp for a great guitar sound, and this bit of folk wisdom has been repeated (largely by people who have never recorded anything) as fact for so long that now you can ask any group on any forum anywhere on the 'net, "How should I mic my guitar cabinet?" and 30 or 40 guys will rush to be the first to tell you "Throw a 57 in front of the speaker and you're good to go."

But as ziess points out, this is NOT actual guitar recording Nirvana. The great guitar tones that we all admire have been recorded with a staggering array of condensers, large diaphragm dynamics and ribbon mics. A great guitar sound is created by listening carefully to the amp in the room, finding a good spot for a good mic, placing that mic where you think it oughta go, and then moving it around until it sounds great on tape. It doesn't have to be a 57, and IMO probably shouldn't be. But if that's what you HAVE, you can get a good guitar sound by paying attention to how the amp sounds in the room.

THat said, I agree that this "buzz" sounds like a rattle. (If you're overdriving the capsule on an SM57, you should stop playing that loud immediately, before someone gets hurt.) Check the shelf, check the amp, but most of all, check your microphone stand for stuff that might rattle.

If it's NOT a rattle, then make sure you're not overdriving your preamps.

[Wilko]

Gravity Jim makes good points about mic usage.

In the pic I can see that you aren't going to get great "room sounds" (or any ambience in your recording anyway. In that case, a very directional, fairly flat, rather boring mic like a 57 is a fine choice. You'll be relying on outboard or post processing to make it sound decent anyway.

If you've ever heard a good amp mic'ed in a good room with some ultra-bitchin' mic like a U87 or something, you'd freak. But then, you'd certainly not get away with having a rattley shelf. You'd be hearing the guitar strap rubbing the strap button and the cord dragging across the parquet floor!

[fezz parka]

Read this: Ken Scott thread.

I think the combo of a ribbon and LDC is the way to go. Sometimes I put the LDC in back of a combo amp (and flip the phase). This is a bigass guitar sound.

That said, I agree that this "buzz" sounds like a rattle. (If you're overdriving the capsule on an SM57, you should stop playing that loud immediately, before someone gets hurt.) Check the shelf, check the amp, but most of all, check your microphone stand for stuff that might rattle.

If it's NOT a rattle, then make sure you're not overdriving your preamps.

This nails it. :yay

[nabskater]

Ok so i went and took out the other 2 shelves and i searched the closet for things that might buzz and removed everything except blankets foam pads and my amp. i also did what ziess said, and moved the mic away and over to the right as well as movint it to about 2 in. away from the grillecloth. I also put the MXL up about 5 feet high and directly over top of the amp as to try and get the bass ass well as the sound from the back of the amp. It def made a big improvement! Theres a sound file attached. Tell me if you think it sounds like there is a bit of a buzz on the low notes. I also did a little EQing cause it sounded incredibly flat... but i dont think it worked...

Oh yeah and by the way... i have the Trim knob as low as it will go for both mics... i just tried turning the faders way down as to make sure i wasnt overloading the pre. (which i think was a lot of the origional problem)

[Wilko]

Is there a reason you want to mic the amp in a closet?

(Serious question.)

Based on that file, I'd say the only problem with the low end is that all you have is low end. Most of that is the closet factor. ANother is that the voice of the amp will change drastically when you pull it away from the wall at least a foot. You'll find a place where the amp will be a major thumping air pump and just by moving the amp back and forth you can actually "tune" the resonant peak of that air.

Not that I'm so great or anything, but here's an amp at low volume sitting on the floor next to me right now at my computer. An SM57 is on a plastic shoebox aimed at my speaker about 1/3 from the edge of the cone, 2" back. For all guitar parts on this track.

http://www.ewilkins.com/music/southern_wilko.mp3

[nabskater]

Well first of all the reason i started to try and put the amp in the closet was about 80% for experimentation. The other 20% was so that was it would be totailly isolated from my computer and i could hear what was coming into the mixer thru my comp speakers. This was i wouldnt be hearing the actual guitar speaker but how how the mic is "interpreting" it. I knew it would sound different but didnt know for better or worse. I kind of agree that i like the big room recording sound... Oh well it was worth a try

Wilko, what amp are you using? I really like how it sounds. Thats pretty impressive if you got that kinda breakup from a tube amp at low volumes.

Hey... maybe i should try recording outside..... :rofl

[Wilko]

Oh, the amp is my home built GDS 18 watt Marshall clone.

[Gravity Jim]

Eeee-yep, that sound sample is what we call "tubby." Sounds like an amp in a closet. :)

[fezz parka]

The most important things, more important than mics or guitars or amps, are you ears. Use them.

[nabskater]

Alright well i have some good news. I finally got the desierd sound. I think this was a combination of removing the other 2 shelves and using 2 mics not directly in front of the speaker. The reason the previously posted clip sounded so bad (i figured out when i went to record again) was that my friend had turned the bass way up on that channel of the mixer because he was recording bass... So luckily is didnt sound that bad just because of the closet. Thanks for you help guys

[pc]

...my friend had turned the bass way up on that channel of the mixer because he was recording bass...

Glad it all worked out for your amp--that's a cool little recording closet. :yay

But, um, tell your friend he's a mook. I can think of like 6 things wrong with that statement. :lol

[Gravity Jim]

I can think of like 6 things wrong with that statement. :lol

Well, at least a couple, anyway. :)

Glad it's sounding better to you, dude. As fezz pointed out, it's largely about using your ears.

[nabskater]

Glad it all worked out for your amp--that's a cool little recording closet.

Yeah it is actually nice to have it isolated plus its easier to record drums and guitar at the same time vie headphones.

But, um, tell your friend he's a mook. I can think of like 6 things wrong with that statement.

Hahah yeah i would completely agree! Would you mind telling me what those are? (obviously i am quite new at this) i think he was trying to get more... thump maybe? Im not quite sure... i didnt even know he did it until now

Also, in your opinion is it better to mic bass amps or use the Direct Out to the mixer?

[Wilko]

Well... You're getting there. For one thing, isolation can be a good thing. Also, knowing that a closet can sound like shite, getting the mic closer to the amp can reduce the crappy room sound. That can make the guitar sound more "up front" in your mix.

[Kap'n]

Hahah yeah i would completely agree! Would you mind telling me what those are?

Well, from my perspective:

...my friend had turned the bass way up on that channel of the mixer because he was recording bass..

1. If he's dicking with your controls when you're recording, he's not your friend.
2. Don't let people dick with your controls when you're recording.
3. If you need to peg the bass control, there's something wrong with your source.
4. A bass shouldn't need it's bass level boosted much. A bass should be inherently bassy. If it's not, it's a guitar. :lol

The other two, Jim?

[chuckocaster]

1. i don't think i can repeat that here...
2. sorry for stepping in for jim, i guess we need one more.

[Gravity Jim]

No problem, chuckocaster... I don't know if "need" is the right word, but I'll throw my wisecracks in, too.

5. Turning any EQ knob "way up" while tracking (or mixing, for that matter) is a terrible idea. Even if you can't fix the source, additive EQ is almost always worse than subtractive (i.e., turning DOWN the frequencies you don't want and boosting level overall).

6. Cranking "the bass" because you're recording a bass means you're not listening, you're just doing stuff you think might be right.

BONUS WISECRACKS:

7. Calling that knob "the bass" would indicate that you might need a refresher on equalization.

8. Hearing the original guitar sound and assuming there is something wrong with your mic and later learning it was all low end because someone had cranked the lows beyond distortion should teach you a valuable lesson (one we've all learned the hard way, I might add) about were to look first when trouble shooting a signal chain.

:)

[pc]

I think you've got my 6 covered between the three of you.

-Friend touching board then not zeroing it.
-Referring to "Low EQ" as bass.
-"Cranking" anything when recording or mixing is bad in 99.9% of applications
-Cranking said Low EQ just because he was recording bass
-Then going ahead and recording said bass with said Low EQ cranked
-Using the same channel for recording bass and guitar can be okay (if the two engineers are communicating), but it implied to me he might be using your Deluxe to record the bass. That'll make it rattle. :lol

I'm serious about the suggestions (which some better engineers than I have already given you), but I'm also serious that I think it's really great you're doing your own recording and really thinking about this stuff. :yay

[nabskater]

Thanks pc, and to the other guys even wisecracks from people with as much experience as you guys is taken to heart haha. Well thanks again for heloing me. Maybe some day ill actually know all there is to know... haha very unlikely!
Oh and by the way im only 16 and this is my first band and were trying to record a few songs but you know its all good. Thanks!

[fezz parka]

Here's another hint: In close quarters, use headphones when placing your mics and tweaking your sound. That way you hear what's coming through them, not just what's in the room...

[chuckocaster]

Thanks pc, and to the other guys even wisecracks from people with as much experience as you guys is taken to heart haha. Well thanks again for heloing me. Maybe some day ill actually know all there is to know... haha very unlikely!
Oh and by the way im only 16 and this is my first band and were trying to record a few songs but you know its all good. Thanks!

don't take it to heart, we're all here to help. maybe my first comment was a little short, but i didn't mean for it to sound mean.

use the headphones like fezz said, great isolation to really hear what moving the mic does.

[Gravity Jim]

... I think it's really great you're doing your own recording and really thinking about this stuff. :yay

Yeah, don't take us seriously, young squire... you're swinging for it, and that's groovy. If you think WE'RE being hard on ya, go ask some questions in any Usenet group. Have an ambulance standing by to take you straight to Trauma 1.....

[nabskater]

Thats a really good idea actually. I could just get my friend do play thru the amp while i move the mic. See what would i do without you guys?? And dont worry i didnt think you guys were mean at all i mean after all any advice or words of wisdom i can get will definitly help me. No worries :)

[chuckocaster]

awesome! hope your project turns out well.

[ziess]

Having just rediscovered this thread i've realised how obnoxious my first post seemed. Sorry about that!

In addition to what the other guys have said, I would question whether you need to be running the trim on your mixer at it's lowest setting. What kind of mixer do you use? I find that my 57s (and I do use them, just not by default) work better at unity gain (ie. with no boost or cut applied to the signal).
As you're just starting out, it's worth pointing out that engineering habits are bad things unless you're recording the same thing all the time.
I used to set up in a 'standard' way, but I soon realised the limitations of this sort of thing and I got over it.

The SM57 is not an unusable mic. You've just got to be aware of it's limitations and what you can reasonably expect you can get from it.

[nabskater]

Well im using the Nady SRM 10 mixer. The trim knob goes from 0 to -60dB I find if i dont want buzz (from the mixer pre overloading iv discovered) i have to keep the gain on 0 and the trim close to 0 also. ... do you think im doing something completely wrong here?