I'm pretty sure that Jimmie Vaughan has 'gotten it done' when playing strats with Tex Mex pups at stage volume.Originally Posted by Tele-Bob
I know you're trying to help but, frankly, why don't you just simply state that YOU'VE never heard a split coil tone that YOU personally found appealing instead of erroneously assuming that your own personal experiences are indicative of some great tonal truism?
Last edited by hudpucker; 08-24-2005 at 12:58 PM.
Tone is in the fingers, eh? Let's hear your Vox, Marshall and Fender fingerings then...
I don`t believe for a second, that JV plays a Mexican Strat on stage. If he does, its maybe for photot ops, but he doesn`t have to play one of those, so why would he??
CT.:ahem
hudpucker, I have a split coil on a Strat Clone on the bridge. If i'm in a studio enviorn, it MIGHT be usefull, but in all reality, in that situation I'd just opt for a true single coil guitar. Why compromise?
Now, on the split coil played live I have a real problem with usefulness. The pup balance is good with the two coils working, but if I split it, the output drops quite a noticeable bit. So I'd have to go jack up my rig to compensate. But in a live setting, that's not an option. So it doesn't work for me live, and recording it isn't necessary, so why even have it? The only time I've ever used it is on a gonzo solo where I switched it back and forth on a long sustain.
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
I don't mean to be flippant but that's irrelevant; Bob portrayed his statement as being objectively 'true' under all circumstances for all players so, in essence, he's saying that NO ONE can 'get it done' with Tex Mex pups under any circumstances. Logically speaking, he'd have to have heard ALL players who use Tex Mex pups live before he could make a definitive statement portrayable as fact. His statement is logically untenable.
Realistically, I'm sure that most people would agree with his sentiment (heck, I don't use cheap pups, either) but again, logically speaking, his statement is untenable.
Perhaps someone wants to use both tones live in one song without switching guitars and is willing to accept what tonal consequences there might be. They may even prefer the split coil tone in certain instances, too. Perhaps a particular pup exhibits real mojo (in the ears of that player) when split. Who are we to believe that we can envision all potential usages of any given tonality? Besides, Bob completely glossed over the fact that cross said that he (or she, I don't know) uses the split-coil tones and finds them useful.
Last edited by hudpucker; 08-24-2005 at 02:09 PM. Reason: got some names wrong-no disrespect intended
Tone is in the fingers, eh? Let's hear your Vox, Marshall and Fender fingerings then...
I definitely agree with the first half. The JB I put in my Fat Strat sounded fantastic with the the middle pickup for quack.
Also, my Godin LGX-SA had a Duncan Jazz II in the neck that sounded killer split--no huge volume drop (other than what you'd expect--one coil isn't as loud as two). I used that sound constantly when gigging that guitar and it was at times indistinguishable from the Tele I had then.
I used to have an older Godin Tele copy with splittable hotrail-type PU`s, and it sounded pretty,,,well souned like a Tele with the coils split. Nice axe it was. Godin make some nice stuff.
CT.:ahem
OK, I'll say this about changing pickups:
If one runs and the other doesn't, I drive the one that does.
I work on the one that doesn't, as time and motivation permits, so that when the one that does doesn't, I can change to the one that does.
I don't really do much pup swaps. I had an Electra 335 copy a while back that I bought to use as a tool and leave my 78 Ibanez Artist home, as it had recently been chewed to hell and back by a Cowboy Wannabe that I let sit in with his big as a sattelite dish belt buckle.
The Ibanez had DiMarzio Super Distortions in it when I bought it, and I was playing mostly country. I paid a tech to change the DiMarzios to Bartolinis, and thing worked pretty good. After I bought the Electra, I had another tech(the one I'm married to now) swap the Bartolinis into the 335 copy.
They just didn't work in that guitar,so we swapped the originals back in and I played that Electra as my main ax for about 10 years.
So, I just drive whichever pickup works.
YMMV
If you leave the house, you're just asking for it.
Well, why would he not? I haven't played the JV, but I've got a stock
MIM 60s Classic that I would be as comfortable doing a gig with as I would my 92 MIJ 50s Reissue or my 88 American Standard.
All that being said, my favorite Strat is the GritoCaster.
She's got Rio Grandes, but I swapped the whole pickguard assembly into the body as opposed to swapping pickups, like you freaks do.
I guess I change bodies more than I do pups.
And necks....I tend to change necks a lot.
I think it's because I never had my own Tinker Toys, Barbie Dolls or Legos as a child. Man, life's a bitch :bug
If you leave the house, you're just asking for it.
hudpucker, we sometimes cut a little slack and try to assume the best in eachother. If my comments came off as flippant, too bad. So I don't write "in my personal experience" before every single post, it should be assumed. I always try to be helpful wherever I can. You don't see me making a point of condeming someone elses comments unless thay are blatantly rude. If you don't like my opinion, tough shit. Don't read it. I get so tired of this crap.
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
so, do you think I'm doing the right thing by driving the one that works and working on the one that doesn't, or should I trade both of the pieces of shit for a Gremlin?
The Gremlin has some serious rust, but it's mostly on the frame where it's not noticeable.
If you leave the house, you're just asking for it.
Yes, you do try to be helpful but in doing so you step on a lot of toes while giving the 'tonal gospel according to Bob'...
In this thread alone you've stated that:
--rarely if ever can anyone get a 'good' live tone from Tex Mex pups. Never mind the fact that this is a logically untenable statement.
--split coil tones are useless except in ultra rare circumstances. Again, this is a logically indefensible statement.
AND you've glossed over input that directly contradicts your own statements (i.e. cross' post) thus disproving your initial stance.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion Bob and you've certainly offered some sage advice at times; BUT, as long as you continue to needlessly portray your opinions as being objective on something as subjective as tone, I will continue to call you on it.
Tone is in the fingers, eh? Let's hear your Vox, Marshall and Fender fingerings then...
You`ve got a point, and I don`t claim to know JV at all, but from watching him in concert, and articles I`ve read about him, and the way he plays, he strikes me as a traditionaist. Shit, look at the way he dresses. I just can`t see him using a Mex Strat, when he`s prolly got some dandy Vintage Starts, as well as anything the Custom shop wants to give him is all. I know what I`d rather play in his situation.
CT.:ahem
That explains my sore toe! It's Bob's fault.
Look, the proof is right in front of us. If split coils were the sland, we'd all be playing them. But very few of us do. So by my raw data, the vast majority of guitar players have rejected them, and have voted with their dollars.
Since guitar players spend millions upon millions to sound better, spend lots of time trying new gear and modding guitars, and split coils remain an oddity, they must not be very useful.
From my personal experience, as a working player, I have no use fot them. If they work for you, good, but you're an exception to the mainstream.
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
hey hud n bob. stop being so offending. it's all about gear n that's all about subjective favors... of course it doesn't make sense to say that split sound aren't usefull simply because of the fact that I'm(I guess this is realistic) a lot younger than bob(me being 20) and we grew up with different sounds or leaving that out we have different ways of seeing music. on hte other hand hud seems a bit picky which I can understand in a way as well...
n concerning angler n his compromise thingy... what if I simply don't search a compromise with a coil split...
oops I'm typing too slow... whatever
the point bout the aftermarket pups is that there are de facto players out there that have to/ want to have a player that suits him and sound the way they like(though it might only be some nouances that mean a big deal to them...)
Actually, the proof is NOT right in front of us; this community of players is NOT indicative of the preferences of the mainstream when taken as a whole; we are an online community of just under 4,800 with an average age in the early-mid 40s. That certainly isn't the most common or dominant demographic when one looks at the population of guitar players in totality.
Now, if you restrict your comments to the TFF population only then the situation is altered drastically.
Split coils are no more an oddity than a distortion pedal or a B-bender; many manufacturers offer numerous models with OEM coil-splitting options and/or features.
When you say "From my personal experience, as a working player, I have no use fot them. If they work for you, good..." that is an entirely acceptable statement since you've acknowledged that while you don't prefer it that others, in fact, might. That is in direct contrast to Bob's statement that "You could count the extremely rare cases on one hand where people have actually used that sound so some advantage, and most of those times were probably in the recording studio." Extremely rare?
There have been 2 posters in this thread alone that have stated that they do currently or have at one time found split coil tones to be useful. Your statement is an opinion while Bob's is an opinion portrayed as fact. THAT'S the distinction I'm trying to highlight, frankly.
I truly don't mean to disrespect anyone and I don't mean to offend Bob personally as he is a well-liked and well-respected member of TFF but I do wish he would stop presenting his opinion as fact, especially when presented with evidence that runs contrary to his own opinions.
cross, how'd you get to be so sensible at 20? ;)
Tone is in the fingers, eh? Let's hear your Vox, Marshall and Fender fingerings then...
So, to sum up, frank52, "the real truth about mexican pickups" is that they're kind of a mystery, but they seem to make people talk about nearly anything BUT mexican pickups.
My advice to you, is get a Teisco. Nearly no one has any in depth experience with them.
Pure discovery, man!
Hope this helps,
NeoFauve
PS: Congrats on an action packed 3rd post!
"Well, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..."
Elvis Costello
:zzz
I'm so special :rofl
whatever my TFF friends, isn't it all about that:
:blbros :smokin
:wav
called R&R?!
Every one has a right to their opinion. And in the land of emails and forums, the tone of a letter might be misinterpreted. I personally know that I have been wrong on many occasions, but the members of TFF have kindly and quickly corrected me. That doesn’t however stop me from posting, my ideas or opinions. Sometimes there great ideas, sometimes there way out in left field but you got to just take them with a pinch of salt. Heck LOL I think sometimes people just skip what I say entirely. Tele has every right to state what he thinks or feels about guitar or pickup. Just as much as me or a new guy to the forum. I myself personally highly regard Tele Bobs opinion
And have emailed him before on purchases. Because I feel he does know what he’s talking about. And he has the same taste as I do in gear.
If you disagree with someone on something, that’s what forums are about. You discuss it. State your opinions! And let people decide for themselves what’s right.
You got to put things to the test for yourself. Not once have a read on TFF any of the older members say well you know nothing, I have blah blah experience. Who are you to say this etc. I find them to be really respectful and helpful.
That being said Teiscos are JUNK ! LOLOLOL
Yeah, whatever. I don't know jack about guitar playing. My only experience is from TFF.
PS, Please by the new CD.
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
Geez, OA, what a bomb!
And I thought you were the PRO around here.
I'm so bummed now. :bummer
There's someone in my head but it's not me.
Well, if OSA is going to come forward, I guess I will too. I'm really 14 years old and live in Montana. Everything I pretend to know, I learned here. I play cello, and not very well.
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
Somehow, T-B, I tend to believe what you just posted!
There's someone in my head but it's not me.
You joke, you smoke, you taunt and you please,
Cause I'm the tall cool one and I'm built to please...
See, I can still remember the song!
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
How did you know where I got my nick from?
There's someone in my head but it's not me.
I've got friends in low places.
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
Damn!
I don't have any acquaintances in the low places, I'm too tall!
There's someone in my head but it's not me.
i saw it from 10 feet away...
"don't worry, i'm a professional!"
Hate to break it to you folks, but anything that can't be quantified is subjective. Meaning it's always somebody's opinion, and never an absolute fact*. I'd hope most of you would have learned that by now.
*Unless of course, it's MY opinion, then it is absolute fact, and you will bend to my awesome power.
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
When the JV sig guitars were first made they took 5 SB ones over to the Custom Shop they reliced them and set them up and thats what JV plays on stage his own Sig fenders Stock with the Tex Mex Pickups.
He does have other nicer Vintage guitars but doesnt use them onstage anymore.
Last edited by Marcondo; 08-24-2005 at 08:48 PM.
Learn something new ever` day!!
CT.:ahem
Yeah, me too.Learn something new ever` day!!
CT.:ahem
Then I go to sleep at night and forget it all
If you leave the house, you're just asking for it.
So, any conclusions made on the original question?
What is "the real truth about mexican pickups "?
There's someone in my head but it's not me.
The real truth about Mexican p'ups has been addressed several times in this thread. Some of it is fact. Some of it is interpretation. But anything of any relevance or consequence seems to have been covered here not only by some knowledgeable people but also by experts in the field.What is "the real truth about mexican pickups "?
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
I've got Mexican pups on my MIM Standard. I bought the guitar because I liked the sound, and the way it played. There was another MIM STandard in the shop, exact same hardware, that didn't sound nearly so good. Mine had a rosewood fretboard, the other had maple. Was that the difference? I don't know. But I know the guitar I bought sounded very good, and the other one was pretty ordinary.
Interestingly, most of the more expensive USA models also sounded pretty ordinary, except for a 50th Anniversary that was three times the price of the MIM Standard, but, on balance, didn't quite like as much as the one I bought.
All of which makes me think that the difference in pups between the MIM and MIA is not so great that changing pups is going to turn a mediocre guitar into a great guitar, or vice versa. I've noticed that the MIM pups *sometimes* pick up hum in positions 1,3,5 (usually near my computer) but are absolutely quiet in "virtual humbucking" positions 2,4 in all situations. Which means for the moment that if I'm getting some interference, I've got two great sounding positions to choose from, rather than five. More than enough, so for the time being, it's no big deal. Eventually, I'll probably do the shielding thing, but I'm hardly going to mess with replacing the pups -- I bought the guitar because I like the sound!
OTOH, in my experience changing out really poor pups with some good ones can make the world of difference for some instruments. Recently I swapped out the original Ibanez pups on an old 1970s Ibanez Firebird copy, and replced them with a vintage Gibson minibucker from a 72 LP in the neck and a a new SD sm-2b in the bridge position. What a difference! That guitar is now a monster. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard it. Still can't. It's a keeper -- "cold steely hands" stuff.
To reconcile this with what I've said above about the Mex vs USA Strat pups, I can only conclude that the MIM pups are actually pretty good pups!
Finally, I've got a split-coil on my SG copy in the bridge position. I like it; it adds a extra sound for that guitar. If I'm playing live, I could play with or without the split. In a live situation, I doubt anyone but me would notice the difference, anyway. I like having the split (and lots of tonal colours to choose from my collection of guitars) mostly to please me when I'm playing for myself. Sometimes playing around with a new tone will make something old sound fresh again. You guys don't just play for other people, do you?
At the end of the day, if I wasn't playing to please myself, I wouldn't play at all. So my vote is split coils are cool. Vintage Gibson and new SDs are cool. MIM and MIA pups are cool. But, deep down, I do have my strong suspicions that almost no-one besides me is really going to notice the difference...
But that's cool too. :)
-Mark
Hey, I just remembered something. I have a rat guitar with a split bucker. It's an old Carvin Strat with no finish left on it. I mean, this guitar looks like it was dragged behind the bus for miles. So I rummaged around and pulled her out today.
Those Carvin pups are LOUD! And the split sound actually works. I mean it sounds like a SC when split. It's actually quite usable! More of a rock bent than the bluesey deal so popular here, but what a killer guitar. The alder is starting to dry out so I threw a coat of Butcher's wax on it. Weird. The stuff I have laying around my place...
I must, therefore, eat the crow before it gets cold.
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
i would just like to say that these arguments of that "i shouldn't sound the best i can because it doesn't makethat much of a difference in a band context" is complete bullshit. it does matter. maybe we take a verbose way to find "the sound", but that is a trip we all have to make. go ask any professional orchestra member or choral person. they work their hardest to make the best sound possible, period. that is their job. and i think we as musicians who play guitar should do the same thing. and if the other guys in your band aren't up to do this, then maybe you should walk. i'm not saying that we all should own super expensive booteek stuff. but let's be honest here, music is about tone and technique. let's not kid ourselves and think just a pup swap is going to change how we sound. but if you have your chops down, you may need to swap pups to put it over the edge. but that is not to say you should just play some crap guitar and amp. but then again, maybe that's your sound. so go for it. i think we really need to diversify what we sound like. i personally get tired reading about "stevie tone" and all that other stuff. figure out what you sound like and work with that. for some people that's stuff that's off the wall, for others, it's custom made stuff.
"don't worry, i'm a professional!"
When I start gigging in concert halls, with near perfect acoustics and an quietly seated audience intent on hearing every sonic nuance my guitar and amp are capable of producing, I'll think about it. In the meantime, if I'm playing in a noisy crowded bar, if the relative volumes of the instruments are OK, the overall volume is within range, and everyone's having a good time, I'm happy. :) (And I bet I could swap pups three times in the evening and no-one, apart from me, would be the wiser.)
-Mark
I'm with ya Chucko! I have spent a long time developing a few different sounds for specific applications. I have my rock rig, my blues rig, my clean rig, and my "ready for anything" rig.
I have devoted a lot of time and effort to coming up with guitar and amp combinations that work best for the situation I'm going to be playing in. That's why I have several guitars and amps.
I have to agree with Plugger on the point of "sounding good for yourself" too. Perhaps the answer is in marrying the two points. When I am producing a sound on my guitar that is very appropriate for the gig I'm playing, I find myself really diggin' the tone because it fits so well.
I have never sat down and tried to cop any other players tone or style. I like to just produce a good tone that is right for the situation.
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
I gotta call bullshit here, chucko.
Tone and technique are tools - but music is about what you say and the attitude you bring it with. It's about delivering the message. Tone and techniques are embellishments.
The opening riff to Satisfaction is the same regardless whether it's played on a Les Paul into a cranked stack or a nylon stringed classical. Beetoven's 5th's opening is the same whether played by an orchestra or synthed out disco studio band.
Music is at it's heart, rythymic. R&R is purely about attitude. Listen to Rumble a few times.
Absolutely - good cruchy attack and a singing sustain allows you do say more, but without a competent musician playing the axe it means nothing.
The gear itself cannot create music. And in realty, most listeners (who aren't musicians so the demographic of this forum really doesn't count) listen at least as much with their eyes as their ears. You not only have to play it, you need to sell it.
When tone becomes the primary focus - you've lost the audience.
YMMV, but that's what the years have taught me.
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
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