Modes - Again

[General Specific]

Ok, I was reading the other thread and I need clarification.


1 - I understand that the modes are different positions of the major scale so that if I was playing in the key of G I could play a B Phrygian and I would still be playing the same notes of G Major.

For me, even if I'm resolving on the root (G), the B Phrygian pattern might be more dynamic in it's note placement allowing me different lick structures. The same is true for all the modes. Same notes different postition or note placement.

( I realize that regardless of the position, if I am going from G to G I am playing Ionian, but for me it is easier to memorize these positions as modes because of the following)

2 - I can also experiment and play a G Phrygian of a G major progression. I think this is where the modes begin to add color to a song. When playing G Phrygian over G Major I'm technically playing in a different key, but experimentation will show which of these "off key" modes work well over certain progressions.

3 - I can compose a song in B Phrygian. Same notes and chords as G, but it has it's root as a Bm.

4 - I've read that some players use modes to follow the chords, using a different mode over each chord change. The band plays a standard progression while the lead plays a different mode for each chord.

5 - In the case of Jazz, the band may change keys rather than changing chords within a key, so you better REALLY know your modes. :bug


I want to do more of this, but it feels like too many options. So, on to the questions:


When you guys think of modes, and incorporate them into your playing, how do you see then and use them in practical application?

I plan on trying modes as a way to flavor my solos. For an Am progression I will try A Phrygian, etc. My bandmate thinks this all sounds Arabian, but I think that has more to do with my styyle and phrasing than anything to do with the modes.

[pc]

Nah. Well, you can think of it that way and that's fine.

In modern pedagogy, modes apply to OTHER chords, not the one you start with. You'll see a lot of instructional materials that say, over an A minor chord, you can play the Aeolian scale from C major, or the Dorian scale from G major.

It's a helpful (maybe?) way of not really having to learn a whole new set of scales. In other words, instead of learning to think of an actual A-minor scale, you can "trick" yourself by saying, "Oh, well I already know the G major scale and I know how to play modes off of it by just starting on a different note, so voila, now I know how to play an A-minor scale."

I hardly think of them at all. I learned scales as scales--all minors, all majors, etc., but if I see an exercise suggest that the B Locrian scale works great over a Bm7b5 chord, I can quickly play a C major scale there and hear it for myself.

I see mode study as a helpful tool to understanding more complex scales, not as much else. You can definitely do it the way you suggest, but you're right, all you're going to get is flavorful colors, not really any deeper connection.

[JAM]

You have to understand how the mode relates to it's underlying chord. For example if you harmonize a major scale the chords you get are: (in the Key of C in this example:

I: Cmaj7, II: Dmin7, III: Emin7, IV: Fmaj7, V: G7, VI: Amin7, VII: Bmin7 flat 5

The corresponding modes: I: Ionian, II: Dorian, III: Phrygian, IV: Lydian, V: Mixolydian, VI: Aeolian, VII: Locrian

[General Specific]

You have to understand how the mode relates to it's underlying chord. For example if you harmonize a major scale the chords you get are: (in the Key of C in this example:

I: Cmaj7, II: Dmin7, III: Emin7, IV: Fmaj7, V: G7, VI: Amin7, VII: Bmin7 flat 5

The corresponding modes: I: Ionian, II: Dorian, III: Phrygian, IV: Lydian, V: Mixolydian, VI: Aeolian, VII: Locrian

When harmonizing the major scale, why all the sevenths?

I don'y play sevenths that often. Do the same rules apply to rock? If so, then why not drop the sevenths?

[General Specific]

Nah. Well, you can think of it that way and that's fine.

In modern pedagogy, modes apply to OTHER chords, not the one you start with. You'll see a lot of instructional materials that say, over an A minor chord, you can play the Aeolian scale from C major, or the Dorian scale from G major.

It's a helpful (maybe?) way of not really having to learn a whole new set of scales. In other words, instead of learning to think of an actual A-minor scale, you can "trick" yourself by saying, "Oh, well I already know the G major scale and I know how to play modes off of it by just starting on a different note, so voila, now I know how to play an A-minor scale."

I hardly think of them at all. I learned scales as scales--all minors, all majors, etc., but if I see an exercise suggest that the B Locrian scale works great over a Bm7b5 chord, I can quickly play a C major scale there and hear it for myself.

I see mode study as a helpful tool to understanding more complex scales, not as much else. You can definitely do it the way you suggest, but you're right, all you're going to get is flavorful colors, not really any deeper connection.

For now, colors would be good. I need more soloing options.

[tenebrae]

When harmonizing the major scale, why all the sevenths?

Because JAM is not giving you the simple triads to be found in the harmonized scale: ie., Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin, Bdim, Cmaj (the result of building two intervals of a third on each note of the scale, eg: C=triad CEG, & so on....)

JAM is giving you the "extra yards". ie. harmonizing 1,3,5,7, in other words, 7th CHORDS:

CEGB= Cmaj7th
DFAD= Dmin7th
EGBD= Emin7th
FACE= Fmaj7th
GBDF= G(dominant)7th
ACEG= Amin7th
BDFA= Bhalf-diminished7th

Tenebrae

[Tele-Bob]

For now, colors would be good. I need more soloing options.

If you really want "colors" forget about soloing for a while and learn your chords. You need to know and understand chords before you can really solo effectively.

Also realize that soloing is done perhaps 2% of the time and rythm is done the other 98% of the time. That's what guitar playing is all about. Rythm. Excessive soloing is called "wanking", regardless of how good you are. LOL

When you know that you're hearing a major 7 chord, you know you can then use the 7 in your scale as a resolving tone when you solo. When the 7 is not present in the chord, you can only use the 7th note as a passing tone. And even then, if you're playing rock the flat 7 often sounds better against the "root and 5th" chords commonly found in rock.

At any rate, don't get too carried away with this soloing business until you have a better understanding of chords. It will make you a superior player in the long run. I did it wrong, and I am still having to "un-learn" some of my bad habits.

Chords and rythm are where it's at man!

[JAM]

As Tenebrae mentioned the chords I listed are all 7th chords. You can even stack an exta third and get ninths for example CEGBD = Cmaj ninth, but you can then see that the upper part - EGBD -is also Emin7 etc.

Also, if you look at Cmaj7 - CEGB you have two triads - CEG (C maj) and EGB (Emin) as Van Eps says "The might triad"

[General Specific]

If you really want "colors" forget about soloing for a while and learn your chords. You need to know and understand chords before you can really solo effectively.

Also realize that soloing is done perhaps 2% of the time and rythm is done the other 98% of the time. That's what guitar playing is all about. Rythm. Excessive soloing is called "wanking", regardless of how good you are. LOL

When you know that you're hearing a major 7 chord, you know you can then use the 7 in your scale as a resolving tone when you solo. When the 7 is not present in the chord, you can only use the 7th note as a passing tone. And even then, if you're playing rock the flat 7 often sounds better against the "root and 5th" chords commonly found in rock.

At any rate, don't get too carried away with this soloing business until you have a better understanding of chords. It will make you a superior player in the long run. I did it wrong, and I am still having to "un-learn" some of my bad habits.

Chords and rythm are where it's at man!

Thanks for all the advice! I'm trying to learn everything, so the chord advice is welcome.

My problem is that I don't know to practice everything to good effect. Being older with all the usual draws on my time, (wife, kids, career), I struggle to get the most out of my guitar time.

I like to play. I like to be able to play along with anyone when invited. So I study theory and practice playing along with CDs. I play rhythm and improvise solos. So far this is working. When invited to play, I can step right up.

My next goal is to delelop as catalog of standard covers I can play. I'm being invited to stand in at band gigs and I need more songs to pull out. The stuff I do know is a little obscure.

Regarding solos, I'm sorry. I like solos. I like to listen to long solos, and I like to play. I don't care if the current trend is no solo guitar. I am a wanker's wanker.

When I play out I keep it tasteful. When I practice, I will wank for hours. I find that it takes hours of practice to get the ability to craft good solos or the fly with the band.

It's not about showing off, it's about doing what I like. Lately I'm listening to Jerry Joseph and the Jackmormons. I'm glad no one told him to stop playing solos!

[Tele-Bob]

I'm not "anti-solo". I just answered your question as best I could. I do find however that most guitar players place way too much importance on soloing and therefore, good rythm players are few and far between.

Most audiences would rather hear you play rythm as well. That's what they dance too. Soloing is cool and a lot of fun but doing it in excess is a sure way to get yourself bounced out of a lot of bands, clubs and jams.

In answer to your statement "My problem is that I don't know to practice everything to good effect." If you practice more rythms it will improve your soloing automatically. This may be hard to believe but in fact, the harder you find it to believe, is directly proportionate to how badly you need to do it. LOL!

[tenebrae]

General Specific,

A good soloist is MELODICALLY aware, and seeks to extend their musical vocabulary as much as they can so that they express themselves in a variety of ways (scales/modes) ~ this is where I understand your interest in modes and their applications to lie. A good soloist must also understand the HARMONIC environment in which he is seeking to express himself ~ hence the need for a solid grounding in understanding the way chords work, both internally (CEGB = Cmaj7th) and in relation (a ii-V-I progression in C = Dmin7th, G7, Cmaj7th). The HARMONIC environment in which the improvising muso is seeking to work is held together RYTHMICALLY ~ and he must abide by its rules. In other words, a good solo is only as good as ALLl of its compoenets, its melodic line, harmonic structure and rythmic integrity.

Tele-Bob has given away special ingredient here, and I'd listen to it: a good solist is also an excellent rythm player, simply because it's a "groove thing". A case in point: many years ago we used to play at a blues/hard rock pub in the city on alternating Friday/Saturday nights. We had some rank bands play with us but a few good ones as well. One band in particular has always stuck in my mind because of the rythm player: Gibson SG, Marshall Guv'nor, into an old Marshall 50 watt head. This fellow was SPOT ON, his timing was immaculate....then it was his turn to take a solo....that rig, that sound, and VERY FEW NOTES & I still remember that solo because of the "groove". It was simultaneously one of the most delicate yet violent aural experiences I'd ever encountered....:)

I spoke to the dude after their set, at the bar. And I asked him about his solo. "I don't know much stuff," he said, "but I know how to breathe....that's what I like to my playing to do: breathe." And there it was: his rythm, his phrasing, where he let silence speak for him. As a rythm player he was a KING HELL soloist in my book!

At any rate, listen to JAM and Tele-Bob, they're telling you what you need to know....

If you're still keen to learn a little about theory (and about modes), I found this for you over at the Allan Holdsworth forums, a Jazz Improvisation Primer:

http://www.therealallanholdsworth.co...pic.php?t=2249

...click the first link on the new page and you get a 90 page book. For a freebie, it's pretty good.

Best of Luck

Tenebrae

[Tele-Bob]

Wow! Great link! Thanks for sharing.

[General Specific]

I'm not "anti-solo". I just answered your question as best I could. I do find however that most guitar players place way too much importance on soloing and therefore, good rythm players are few and far between.

Most audiences would rather hear you play rythm as well. That's what they dance too. Soloing is cool and a lot of fun but doing it in excess is a sure way to get yourself bounced out of a lot of bands, clubs and jams.

In answer to your statement "My problem is that I don't know to practice everything to good effect." If you practice more rythms it will improve your soloing automatically. This may be hard to believe but in fact, the harder you find it to believe, is directly proportionate to how badly you need to do it. LOL!

I don't find any of this hard to believe. I do practice rhythm. I don't really know what to do with the harmonized major scale. I've practiced it before and I built up jazz rhythm chops. Playing those chords didn't help me understand how to solo using modes.

So, while I've seen all this theory before, I don't know how to learn it to my advantage. I don't have time to learn everything. I simply don't.

I don't know how this thread became a soapbox for rhythm practice. Believe me, I practice rhythm. I asked about modes because I would like to extend my options. Your answer is, "Rhythm is where it's at, man!". Rhythm is very important, but stating that is somewhat counter to answering my question which was "how are modes used in practical application?". I even went as far as to list all the applications I could think of and ask which of these apply to your playing.

I have learned one thing after years of study. For my situation and constraints I need to focus of practical theory, or that theory that I can put to use in practical application. Learning classical would certainly make me a better guitar player as would learning how to sight read. I simply don't have the time.

Maybe, if you can find the time, you can tell me how YOU use modal scales. We can discuss rhythm later.

[Tele-Bob]

This can get a little difficult to discuss. There is no soap box here. Just practical information. And I have answered your question as best I could without going into a 90 page, (see link above), dissertation on exactly why chords are so important to soloing.

Perhaps you should click on the link above and start reading. There is a wealth of information to answer your questions which actually supports what I'm saying as well.

As far as not having time to learn? It takes longer to teach and I am giving my time here in earnest to try and help. It can be difficult when someone asks to be taught something and then specifies the way they'd like to be taught. I'm sorry if you've misunderstood me, but I stand by the answers I've given you above. Take what you wish from it.

[tenebrae]

Wow! Great link! Thanks for sharing.

That's my pleasure, Tele-Bob. Glad to see it's appreciated! Not a bad read at all, eh?

Cheers

Tenebrae

[Tele-Bob]

That's my pleasure, Tele-Bob. Glad to see it's appreciated! Not a bad read at all, eh?

Cheers

Tenebrae

It's a great read! But it is a little "rythm heavy". LOL :lol

[JAM]

Music is really about hearing. You can get bogged down by thinking too much of theory. I took a jazz improv class many years ago. Each week a new scale and/or harmony approach was presented. We would play through these new tunes that had been written just to feature the new scales or approach. We had to play against the changes using only the new stuff. The instructor would stop anyone just playing their own licks. Of course at first everyone's afraid to sound bad, but after a while we started having fun. The objective of the course was to get us to hear these sounds against the chord changes. Some of it had little practical application since it can get to be pretty "outside" sounding, but it does help to open your ears to new possiblilties.

[Tele-Bob]

I love to take what would be considered a diminished run from the locrian and play it against a major chord. It sounds really cool, unexpected and catches the people who are listening off guard.

I really dig running down a diminished arpeggio over the turnaround in a blues tune as well. Especially descending over I VI II V turnaround. The notes just tumble down over the changes and it almost sounds like I know what I'm doing! LOL!

[pc]

General Specific, your screen name is becoming ironic. When you ask for opinions, you will get varying answers. There is no "right" answer on how to incorporate modes into your practicing. Everyone does things differently. Asking for opinions and then getting upset when someone offers them (even if doggedly) is a little silly.

[Franklin]

THANKS for the link tenebrae!!!

[tenebrae]

THANKS for the link tenebrae!!!

All in the name of good service, thebluesbarn. Enjoy!

Cheers

Tenebrae