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Thread: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

  1. #41
    Forum Member Marcondo's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    SRV's #1 did not have hot pickups. When Fender made the texas specials that are hotter wound pickups they sound nothing like SRV way too dark of a sound.

  2. #42

    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Well I'm gaining knowledge as I go, I always thought the actual number one pickups were hot guess ya learn something new ever day. FORGET about Texas Specials I've always known they weren't really the SRV pickup. I only bought them because I didn't know much about other pickups and I thought I needed a set of hot pickups.

    I'm just trying to get the right set of pickups without having to buy a bunch of sets and drop'n a butt load of money in the process. Thats why I post'd this question because I know that most of the people on this site have already been through what I'm going through and would have valuable information, that could possibly save me a TON of money and keep A HUGE PAIN out of my arse.

    Thanks again for all the help, feel free to keep it coming.

    do you guys think the O.C Duff pickups are worth drop'n almost 300 clams on???? I could almost buy a Russian Mail Order bride for three hundee

  3. #43
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    guitarplayigdrumr, you've just hit the nail on the head. The vast majority of people who buy guitars are not working guitar players playing at performance volumes, or guys who occasionally jam or play small clubs.

    When you do big shows, outside, it's a completley different dynamic. In the basement, the amp is on three, and the character of the pup is much more apparent. Out live, the character of the crancked amp, is much more prevalent. With my amp at 6 or 7, the difference between a Les Paul and a Tele isn't as much as you would think!

    So if you're Fender, and you want an SRV guitar -knowing that most of the people who buy one will be playing at low volume at home, you need to tailor the pups to sound growly and aggressive and SRVish at low volume. You basically, try to capture the sound of a VERY LOUD amp at low volume. The result is that the pup you market may be totally different than the ones in the actual guitar being emulated.

    Make sense?
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  4. #44
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Pardon me if I jump in the discussion but I'm getting quite interested in pickups and I'm learning a lot by reading you guys.

    I'm trying to make sense of what I read here so far.
    What I'm getting is with lower output PUPs, you're not pushing the pre-amp as much and needs to crank the amp more so getting into output saturation more than input saturation, which obviously change the caracter of the tone you're getting.
    While with hot PUPs it's the pre-amp that saturates first thus getting that compression effect right from the start.

    Am I right in thinking that?
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  5. #45

    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    I DO play live A LOT, just not at the moment!

    I have only been bandless for a little while, I'm looking for a rig that will sound good in club and smaller venues though.

    I was just making the point that right now I can't get my amp up to 7 to try the pickups out. ;)



  6. #46
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    TC1 - you've got it!
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  7. #47
    Forum Member Tele-Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Yup, TC1 digs it.
    If you're bored, you're not groovin'.

  8. #48
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Man I'm good!
    Now if I could only pick up chops as quickly...

    Then, one problem with low output PUPs is that you need to bring the amp to non-suitable bedroom levels to get any good gritty sounds, a la SRV.
    So unless you're after clean sounds, these are not really for the casual "rock" player. Right?
    Unless you get a stompbox in the line but then it's not the amp that gives you your sound, it's just reproducing what comes in without really adding any of its own character. Might as well play thru a home sound system or thru your PC with a nice amps simulation soft.
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  9. #49

    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    So if you ARE playing at bedroom levels a HOT pickups would be right for someone who is looking for the SRV tone?

  10. #50
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayingdrumr
    So if you ARE playing at bedroom levels a HOT pickups would be right for someone who is looking for the SRV tone?
    Honestly, and I'll get killed for this, but for SRV tones in the bedroom you need a modeler. A POD or similar device.

    Sorry, but that's the truth.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  11. #51
    Forum Member Kap'n's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler
    Honestly, and I'll get killed for this, but for SRV tones in the bedroom you need a modeler. A POD or similar device.

    Sorry, but that's the truth.
    Sounds about right. There's no way, even with a champ, to get enough gain to move enough air, go into feedback, etc.

    Good thing that's not my goal, and I have understanding neighbors.
    Several guitars in different colors
    Things to make them fuzzy
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    orange picks

  12. #52

    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    I guess I was just wondering WHAT USE HOT PICKUPS HAVE, that is why I posted my last question.

    I obviously don't have a use for them so I'M GLAD I LEARN'D WHAT I DID FROM THESE POSTS.

    So why would someone need a "HOT" pickup??? and why does EVERY company make HOT Stevie Ray Vaughan wannabe pickups???

  13. #53
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    So if you ARE playing at bedroom levels a HOT pickups would be right for someone who is looking for the SRV tone?
    That is what I gather from reading the comments in here.
    Not because I have any experience.

    But then again, the PUPs are probably just one variable of the complete equation.
    Even at bedroom levels, the amp will play a major role too, I assume.
    The basic initial tonal characteristics of the amp will affect the total result.
    As well as the speaker in it, and the stompboxes used in the line to the amp.

    But at bedroom level you won't get the actual amplification stages of the amp to overdrive and, because of that, will have a hard time getting the actual SRV tone. I doubt very much that he played on stage with his amp at bedroom level, right?

    Pre-amp overdrive and amp overdrive have two different tonal characteristics and, again from what I've been reading, amp overdrive seems to be part of most sought after known tones of the greats.
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  14. #54
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayingdrumr
    I guess I was just wondering WHAT USE HOT PICKUPS HAVE, that is why I posted my last question.

    I obviously don't have a use for them so I'M GLAD I LEARN'D WHAT I DID FROM THESE POSTS.

    So why would someone need a "HOT" pickup??? and why does EVERY company make HOT Stevie Ray Vaughan wannabe pickups???
    Well, Hot pups add compression. So, country players love 'em. An overwound is SOP for a hot Tele picker. Metal guys like them for crunch. Wicked attack and machine gun rythyms don't need dynamics. Most metal guys use a volume pedal for dynamics.


    Hot pups will drive the preamp into distortion at lower levels. You get great front-end saturation. If you want distortion, and not overdrive, you use hot pups.
    If you want overdrive, you boost the treble and clip the power section. That gives it edge, while the unclipped bottom end adds girth. That's the Texas sound that Billy Gibbons does so well.

    Then, if you want to sound like SRV or EVH or Eric Johnson, you mike the amp ( or DI it into the sound system) and overdrive power amp(s) preamp section into the mains. You use the effects loop on the guitar channel. That's the secret to huge sound.

    You can actually use a fuzz onstage and them clip it in the power amps and it will sound like overdrive with MONSTER sustain. That, is, in fact, exactly how Eric Johnson and others do it. EJ uses a Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face and then post-mikes the effects.

    Post-mike effects are a big part of recorded sound too.

    But - all of these techniques are 100dB plus. So in the bedroom, use a modeler.

    As far as why they sell them, see post #43. Since Joe Wannabee isn't going to be clipping the power amps, the next best thing is to saturate the preamp.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  15. #55
    Forum Member sabby's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    For bedroom levels, I'd grab a Silverface Princeton and get one of these to take the edge off. Under a grand, but a lot more pricey than pups.

  16. #56
    Forum Member Marcondo's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    I have a video of SRV where he plays 4 different guitars at the same gig all with different pickups in them. #1 Lenny Scotch and Charley. Charley even has lipstick pickups in it which are completly different from the others. Guess what (most of you guys know what I am about to say next) He sounded the same on all of them sounded just like SRV wow! hahah

  17. #57
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    He sounded the same on all of them
    OK! So? What's the point here?
    And I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to understand.
    I know about the "tone is in the hands" thing.
    But there are still some electronics involved here.

    Could it proves the point made by T-B (I think it was him) that at stage level the PUPs don't make much of a difference?
    That would mean the setup of the amp is critical here.
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  18. #58

    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Well Marcondo if you think that Lenny sounds ANYTHING like Number One you need your hearing check'd...... and I guarantee you that any BIG SRV fan could tell you exactly what guitar he is using on most of his songs by the difference in there tone.

    Offshore what is a good technique for a SMALL club type musician cuz I CAN'T GET TO 100db in a small club?

    I use my strat through a DRRI and a TS-9 Tubescreamer, what else should I add??

    in this statment below is DI Direct Input??and what if the amp doesn't have an FX loop?
    "Then, if you want to sound like SRV or EVH or Eric Johnson, you mike the amp ( or DI it into the sound system) and overdrive power amp(s) preamp section into the mains. You use the effects loop on the guitar channel. That's the secret to huge sound."

    SORRY I KNOW YOU HAMMERING ARM HAS TO BE TIRED

  19. #59
    Forum Member Tele-Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Nah TC1, I said that (in my personal experience), cheaper p'ups tend to show their ass at higher volume.

    To me it seems that the better p'ups out there have a more focused sound which highlights the sounds and frequencies you want from a guitar. Almost like they filter out a lot of the undesirable squeaks and squawks of their economincal counterparts. High quality p'ups seem to have a much more refined sound over the less expensive alternatives.

    As I said earlier, the Tex-Mex p'ups I had sounded incredible at lower volume levels but had a few warts when played at a gig. Changing them made a big improvement in the guitar.
    If you're bored, you're not groovin'.

  20. #60
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    GPD, you can take the preamp out on a head and send it to the sound system. That goes into the mixer. The mixer has an effects loop, and that's where you put your toys.

    Or you mike the amp and do the same thing. Usually, the player onstage has some effects and then more are added post-mike, aka, via the mixer.

    At club levels, you can run your amp high and baffle it to get the Texas sound. Generally, the baffles are made of plexiglass. Some guys use isolation cabinets too. The amp or speaker cab is enclosed in a (somewhat) soundproof box offstage with a mike in it.

    When I recorded a few tracks for Supernatural (the band, not the album!) I put a C30 in a small closet and miked it. I used a borrowed LP and set the amp to "Destroy" and had at it. The mix and guitar were all in the headphones, so it was very comfortable. Plus, with a raw amp track, it was easy to add effects to the guitar track after it was recorded.

    OSA
    Last edited by Offshore Angler; 08-25-2005 at 09:05 AM.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  21. #61
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tele-Bob
    Yup, the more gain you use, the less important the guitar becomes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler
    But I agree, the more gain the less important the guitar becomes. But not the player.
    Sorry T-B, this is what you said, and OSA agreed.

    But doesn't that contradict the statement that better quality PUPs sound better at higher volume?
    I would assume, from your statement above, that if you use a lot of overdrive/distortion, no matter what you use as, and in, a guitar will sound the same.
    The effects chain and the amp will give you your sound, not the guitar, be it a Strat, a Paul, a PRS or whatever, with any type of PUPs.

    Again, I just want to understand and decipher all that information.
    I'm not putting you on the spot. :)
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  22. #62
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    TC1, yeah, at a certain point the sound will be all pretty much the same. The responsiveness of the guitar will be apparent up until you get wacko. Then, look at a processor/modeler - the guitar only needs to feel good.

    Also, at high volume high gain live situsations, you need a noise gate. This will completely remove the pickup response from the equation.

    OSA
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  23. #63
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    So, basically, for anyone not playing at arena volumes, i.e. smaller venues like clubs of a few hundred people and less, the best way to attain that growl, grit or whatever else you call that SRV type sound, is to have a less wattage amp (for example like a Blues Junior) and push it to the max.
    (Actually, even a Blues Junior might be too loud in some occasions)

    In this type of scenario, will the PUPS play a much bigger role in the sound or is the equation about the same? (still using lots of overdrive/distortion)
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  24. #64
    Forum Member Tele-Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    TC1, "hi-gain" and "hi volume" are two completely different things. I was talking about two completely different situations in those statements.

    When I crank up the gain, I find that the character of a p'up starts to get lost in all the distortion so it becomes important to choose p'ups with different attributes for playing in those situations. The tone is no longer as much a concern as is the p'ups ability to cut through all that buzzy gain. It doesn't make a huge difference FOR ME but it does help.

    When playing in high volume situations like club gigs and stuff, (beyond living room volume) where you're not using a lot of gain, the quality of the p'ups becomes more important. IT HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT cheap p'ups make some pretty harsh sounds when played loud and clean. Higher quality p'ups have a much more refined sound that is smoother and more complex.
    The harshness in not very noticable TO ME with cheap p'ups when the volume is low. But crank 'em up to gig volume and they really show their ass. (TO ME)
    If you're bored, you're not groovin'.

  25. #65
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    TC1, you are perhaps the brightest student ever.

    Yes. I small amp dimed will always sound better than a big one on 2. This is for the average rocker. There are times when we want to be super clean that this wouldn't apply.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  26. #66
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tele-Bob
    TC1, "hi-gain" and "hi volume" are two completely different things. I was talking about two completely different situations in those statements.
    T-B, you're right, my mistake. I understand the conceptual differences between hi-gain and hi-volume.

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler
    TC1, you are perhaps the brightest student ever.
    Thanks OSA, but I have no merits, it's only logical to apply one concept into different situations.

    Besides it is stuff that I had already kinda learn (read in magazines or on the web) before but was not able to see the actual application. With you guys spelling it out the way you do, it helps me understand more and put 1 and 1 together.

    Now that we're done with the amp part of the equation, back to the PUP variable.

    For hi-gain you basically need a hot PUP, right?
    Lets take two of the greats as example, Vai and SRV.
    Vai is in the distortion territory and SRV in the overdrive territory.
    Am I right in stating this?
    I base this statement on the tone quality they both have.
    With Vai you hear the notes but very little of the strings while with SRV you hear a lot of the strings sounds.
    And I'm talking about their typical signature sound.

    I would assume that VAI is using a lot hotter PUP than SRV, humbuckers vs singles.
    Am I in the right direction?
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  27. #67

    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    So for me in a small club setting will it make much difference if I change my pickups from my '57/'62 to say the OC Duff "number one" pickups which are also not a hot pickup?

    and if I change from my '57/'62 to the Van Zandt Rocks which are a semi hot pickup will it make a difference?

    the reason I ask is because in a club setting I will be playing at high volume levels BUT I will have my TS-9 going also.


    OSA do you think my Deluxe Reverb can get BALLSY enough to use a plexi baffle and still sound good out front? Do you loose anything by using a baffle?

    THANKS FOR OPENING MY EYES GUYS !!!!! The last few post REALLY clear'd things up

  28. #68
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    A DR can get really ballsy. At about 6, it starts to break up. Crank it till it just starts to break, and use sound reinforcement from there. Since you have a single twelve if you go too far it will flab out on you.

    As far as a the small club setting, you're still way down the volume food chain. I would play it pretty dry, with the reverb just barely noticeable, mike it, and reverb it through the mains, regardless of how small the club is. When you use reverb on the amp, the vocal mikes will pick up a lot more of your guitar than you imagine. If your reverb on you amp is wet, then the reverb on the sound system will be out of phase with it and cause destructive interference. You'll have dead zones and a tremelo effect out front. Plus, at performance levels you really don't need reverb since the sound is bouncing off walls and whatever. Outside, of course, this changes.

    A baffle usuallydoesn't loose anything. It actually thickens it up by killing some of the highs. But the only way to find out what works for you is to try it. Just grab a sheet of plastic and see what happens. Remember, a DR or DRRI has a very open back, and the throw from the back will again, be out of phase with the front if it's reflecting off the back wall if you use lots of 'verb with the amp cranked.

    Also, the stock TS9 uses shitty caps in the tone stack, and the resistance value is way to high. Dropping it from 4.7K to 2.2 K and replacing the crappy little cap with a Radio Shack electrolitic makes the TS9 come to life. I modded mine to switch between 1.1K and 2.2K as my mood wanders. Keeley also replaces a couple of other caps to make it more transparent, but I like mine a tad on the obnoxious side, he he. If you want to TS9 and you're not into modding, buy a Keeley TS9. They're well worth the money.

    Pickups are a total crapshoot. You just never know until you try them.

    But before I changed anything, I'd use a live mike recording out front and hear what everything sounds like in the mix. You'll be amazed at how different your guitar sounds out front! I promise. That's the beauty of miking, since you can add a monitor and hear the entire mix when you play. If nothing is miked, you don't have a clue how everything is coming together. You hear your amp great. But everybody else is pointed away from you. The stage mix will be completely different than the front mix. Since you hear alot more of your amp than anything else, what you think is cutting through may actually have a buried sound.

    When playing live - treble is your friend!

    We don't do it with Crossfyre, but with Riverside Drive I had two monitors. One for the mix and one for the vocals. That's the optimum setup, but it's just too danged much work!
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  29. #69
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    I'm not going to delete this thread because there's a lot of great info in it. Which is not what GuitarPlayingDrummer was hoping for, considering who he is.

    In case you don't read the other thread GPD, let me be clear again. Find another hobby, because every time you come back here, we will ban you. Grow up or find some other games to play, somewhere else.

  30. #70
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Y'know, on second thought, I'm going to unlock this thread. Other people were probably enjoying it.

    Apologies to those mislead by the original poster, who owns none of the gear he described and has asked these same questions in his/her other forms just to get people arguing with one another. Congrats to the excellent members of TFF who didn't take the bait and instead continued on with well-thought responses. You are all a credit to TFF!

  31. #71
    Forum Member blackonblack's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Thank you PC, as the discussion recent on this thread was quite good.

  32. #72
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Thanks PC. I am really enjoy this discussion, I'm learning quite a bit.
    I didn't realized what GDB was doing. His questions seemed valid.
    But yeah, the thread did get borderline at one point.
    Good thing TFFers are the sland! ;)

    OSA, what you just described, the crowd sound vs the stage sound, I just experienced it.
    My now defunct band played 2 weeks ago an outdoor show and I taped it on video, with the crappy little mic of the cam.
    But I still can hear the difference of the crowd sound compared to the sound I was hearing on stage. It was also my 1st experience on a live outdoor show.

    It's amazing the difference. The monitoring we had wasn't good enough tho so I couldn't really hear the full mix, just the vocals so I couldn't make up what I sounded like out there from the stage.
    What I hear on the video is not bad at all but very different from what I was hearing on the stage. A total revelation for me.

    But we're a bit off topic now.
    How 'bout my questions on post 66?
    (Feeling almost devilish here with that number... of the almost beast.)
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  33. #73
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    TC1,

    In a broad, very general statement - single coils are more dynamic than buckers. Buckers have moe "whomp" on the attack and are more compressed. Single coils are more high-endy on the attack and and cut better.

    But then, tradiional bucker sound is a Les Paul, which hads a shorter scale than a Fender, and hence, lower string tension and different harmonics. So when comparing the humbucker sound to the single coil sound, most people compare the LP sound to a Strat. But a Strat with a 490T will sound totally different than a Lester with the same pup, due to the higher harmonics resulting from the higher string tension. SO the only way to reall learn the difference is to play two similar guitars, once with a SC and the other with a HB.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  34. #74
    Forum Member Tele-Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Van Zandt or Fralin ???

    Lets not forget about P90s in an LP OSA. LOL! P90s rule!

    P90's like Strat p'ups, amplify a smaller portion of the string because they have only one set of pole pieces. This narrower focus helps gives them "that sound". This is also one of the reasons a "stacked humbucker" in a Strat single coil hole will never sound like a full-on humbucker.

    For these reasons, I built my carved top Tele which has a carved maple top over mahogany, a 25 1/2" Fender scale length, and P90 Stack p'ups. The sound is very Les Paul-like, but different. It's really cool.
    If you're bored, you're not groovin'.

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