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Thread: Working on musical ideas

  1. #1
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Working on musical ideas

    I've been, for awhile now, putting aside tidbits of some musical ideas i got while noodling around on the guitar. It could be just a few chords that sound nice together or a just little riff.

    I do have a few songs that are fully together (or close to be) but these came to me as a whole. It just sorta came together without any real thinking. With my limited habilities and resources I managed to put together a complete foundation for these songs.

    But with these tidbits, I just can't seem to be able to piece together some meaningful ideas. I just can't get a bigger picture than just these little pieces.

    How do you go about working original ideas?
    How do you work out a simple little idea to become a full, complete song?
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  2. #2
    Forum Member mojo's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    thetallcoolone,

    I read through a short manual called Basics for Chord Construction and Voicing by Dave Lynch (he owns the shop I take lessons at). He is quite knowledgeable, a Berklee grad I believe. The techniques involve Chordal Harmonies. Dave says it's useful for all styles of music. It is designed to help you “explore your creative abilities by providing you with a new pallet of harmonic colors from which to paint". It seems to me this might be at least part of what you’re looking for.The manual was given to me by Dave to use later after I have progressed sufficiently. It is copyrighted material of someone I know, so I feel I must get permission to distribute, even in this limited way. Let me know if you are interested, I will see what I can do to get this to you.

    Kindest Regards,

    mojo
    Last edited by mojo; 07-04-2005 at 09:29 PM.

  3. #3
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    I'm not familiar with Lynch's musical work but I remember seeing his name poping up in various guitar magazines all the time back when there was all but one Guitar Magazine to read, back then.
    So I know the guy is well known and respected in the guitar top world.
    I sure would be interested in this book, or part of it, whatever could be available, if at all possible.

    Thanks a million for the offer.
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  4. #4
    Forum Member mojo's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    thetallcoolone,

    I'll see what I can do...moj

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    Forum Member bonefish's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    do you have someone you can collaborate with? i find i work a lot better w/ someone to bounce ideas off of. hey, leiber/stoller, lennon/mccartney, jagger/richards, john/taupin, seems like most great songs are not created in a vacuum.
    Röckin' nön-stöp ön my Föckin' Glöckinspiel...
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    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    if i can't work out a song from the get go i leave it alone. what i have found is that when i try to work out stuff after the fact (when inspiration hits) it all turns to crap. i have several books of lyrical ideas, and a mountain of tapes...i guess what i'm saying is that for me, if it doesn't come about in 15 minutes, then i leave it alone.

    as for you though, this might work, it might not. i'm not really a riff writer, but i do write some from time to time. but they are always after the fact of writing a song. to me that means lyrics, melody, chords, and mood.
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  7. #7
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by bonefish
    do you have someone you can collaborate with? i find i work a lot better w/ someone to bounce ideas off of. hey, leiber/stoller, lennon/mccartney, jagger/richards, john/taupin, seems like most great songs are not created in a vacuum.
    Unfortunately, for now anyways, I'm a loner.
    I did for a little while work ideas with someone else but that person is not available anymore. I'd love to find someone that has similar musical taste as I have to work with.
    But for now, I gotta do it on my own.
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  8. #8
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckocaster
    if i can't work out a song from the get go i leave it alone. what i have found is that when i try to work out stuff after the fact (when inspiration hits) it all turns to crap. i have several books of lyrical ideas, and a mountain of tapes...i guess what i'm saying is that for me, if it doesn't come about in 15 minutes, then i leave it alone.

    as for you though, this might work, it might not. i'm not really a riff writer, but i do write some from time to time. but they are always after the fact of writing a song. to me that means lyrics, melody, chords, and mood.
    I'm not much of a lyricist myself.
    To me, words are not as important as the mood the music carries.
    Whatever riffs I can come up with, it's always for a mood creation than to show off some musical habilities on an instrument.
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  9. #9
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    i'm kinda the other way around. different strokes for different folks, that's what makes music fun.
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  10. #10
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    ...and the world too!
    Could you imagine living in a world where, in a guitar forum, there would be no "maple vs rosewood" thread?
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  11. #11
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    the horror, oh the horror...:rofl

    take it easy brother man. good luck on your project.
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

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    Forum Member NeoFauve's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    I found that when I tried to write a tune with a guitar in my lap, my hands did familiar things, just out of habit. For some (better) players that's okay, for me it wasn't.
    Trying to graft a lyric or melody onto my noodling usually proved difficult. I'd just go in circles.
    The songs I've written that I think are actually decent came in less deliberate ways. Something would just come to me, somewhat whole. It might be a verse or chorus, or just a groove. Then I'd have to fill in the blanks and build around it. A tough but interesting process.

    I started keeping a little cassette recorder in my truck. I didn't have to worry about playing it. I could just sing an idea onto tape right away, and my modest playing couldn't steer it in a familiar direction.
    I'd let things ferment into some kind of a shape independent of my guitar playing, then edit/revise lyrics, fine-tune and learn it later.
    "Well, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..."
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    Forum Member sabby's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    To continue Neo's thought, try to compose on a keyboard.

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    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by sabby
    To continue Neo's thought, try to compose on a keyboard.
    That is in the project pipeline, taking keyboard lessons.
    As soon as my life gets back into some normality, singing and keys lessons will be in order.
    I hope this will expand my horizon a bit and help me in my musical realm.
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

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    Forum Member The Nazz Are Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    Most song ideas come to me in bits like that. I try and get as far as i can on the creative wave i've struck, but after that runs out i just make sure i remember the idea (write it down, mostly) and then i leave it. Sooner or later i get some other off-hand idea and when i look for a part to a new song i can reach into my bucket of song bits to see if any fit.
    Other times i just hear something in my head and see if i can work it out on my guitar. A cassette recorder is a great idea. I haven't got one, but if i could afford one i'd get one (i'm not that broke, just a little). Great way to remember things that can come to you in weirdo places.

    I dunno, my advice is prob'ly useless, but if i can reach just one person.....

  16. #16
    Forum Member NeoFauve's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    I don't recall who it was, but I read an interview where some songwriter said she'd call home and sing her idea to her answering machine if she didn't have any other way to jot it down.
    "Well, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..."
    Elvis Costello

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    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoFauve
    I don't recall who it was, but I read an interview where some songwriter said she'd call home and sing her idea to her answering machine if she didn't have any other way to jot it down.
    Nice idea but what if somebody answers?
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  18. #18
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    if she's a songwriter, i doubt there's anybody home, either literally or figuratively. ba dum dum. thank you thank, be sure to tip your waitress...

    but seriously, if you carry around a little mini cassette recorder that'll be about the same. i have to carry around pens and a notebook to jot down lyric ideas.
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  19. #19
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    My problem is not coming up with ideas, or remembering them, it's bringing them further. To make them into a complete song.
    That is where, I think, a partner in cime is really helpful.

    A friend of mine is into composition too.
    He's into more complex stuff, progressive rock, à la Yes, Rush, etc...
    But he says he has the full picture, or soundscape, in his mind. He knows exactly what the drums should be doing, the bass, the keys, etc...
    He hears it all in his head.

    I don't have that habilety. I have no freaking clue what all the other guys should be doing. It's when I hear someone doing something I know if it's right or not for the feel I have for that particular song.

    I'm a feeler. I need to see, hear, touch, to get the whole picture.
    I guess I'm just limited.
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

  20. #20
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    just different man. for as much schooling as i have, i never really use it when i write music. it just comes out, and then i figure out what sounds cool. that is what it's all about. not what mode you're in. knowing the details is really handy, but i don't base my musical approach on it. i do go back and analyze stuff to figure out exactly what is going on, that helps for fleshing it out. i just don't concentrate on the details while i'm creating. i hope that makes sense.
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  21. #21
    Forum Member frank thomson's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    oh, music?.........




    G-C-D ........i just gave you the gift of country!
    Last edited by frank thomson; 07-13-2005 at 04:28 PM.
    Imanidiot.

  22. #22
    Gravity Jim
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    tallcoolone, NeoFauve is certainly on the right track.

    If you're having a hard time stringing things together into a meaningful song, it's because you're writing with your instrument in your hands, and thinking that the instrumental parts are the song.

    Here's what you need to do: Think about one of your stronger riffs or progressions and the accompanying melody. And when you get to "what happens next?" part, stop and listen. Listen to your head, listen to the silence of you NOT playing, and keep listening until you hear the melody that comes next. Play that MELODY, not chords or riffs or anything, until you know it cold. And once you have composed a complete melody, THEN start looking for chords that harmonize with it (and try finding some chords you haven't tried before), or figuring out riffs or fills that support it.

    As for breaking out of lyrical ruts, try doing what the really great songwriters of the rock era do: write a song as if you were writing a story about someone else. Donald Fagen, Randy Newman, Elvis Costello and lots more all take this approach all the time. Did you know that the subject of "Allison" wasn't even someone that EC knew? It's a completly imagined story about a girl he saw frequently behind the counter at a drug store.

    But anyway, write the melody and the lyrics first. When you can sing the song all the way through without picking up your guitar, you're ready to start working on harmony. I write my best songs while driving or while mowing the lawn... just enough activity to keep my lizard brain occupied so my front brain is free to write.

  23. #23
    Forum Member thetallcoolone's Avatar
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    Re: Working on musical ideas

    Plenty of good info guys.
    Some will surely make it home to me.

    But as I mentionned before I'm not a lyricist.
    First, my English vocabulary is too limited to actually write in English.
    Have a peek here: http://mystuff.tc1.savefile.com/suspense.html
    This is actually my real first try at lyrics ansd you'll understand.
    I might be able to do it in French, it's my mother tongue, so my French vocabulary is somewhat better to carry my thoughts.

    Besides, when I hear a song I rarely listen to the words. For me, the musical ideas have precedence over the spoken ones. And I view the voice as just another instrument, not a way to put out thoughts.

    What I'm really struggling over is to translate what I'm hearing in my head into actual structured sounds. It's like having a great digital composition unit but no AD/DA converters to put it thru the speakers.

    I will come up with some ideas on the guitar but I can't back them up with drums, bass, keys, etc... I feel like I would need to be a knowledgable player of these instruments to be able to come up with the backing ideas of my main idea. And all these instruments are influencial to the overall feel and dynamics of the end result.

    Right now, the only compositional tool I can use is Band In A Box to give me some backing structure. But it never ends up the way I initially thought of.
    If you go to the JamZone, I just put out 2 numbers I came up with. They sound a lot more countryish and cheesy than I initially envisioned.
    I'm stuck using the structure BIAB is forcing on me, and I don't know how else I can go about it.

    These songwriters you mentioned Jim, they started out with just an idea, be it on piano, guitar, a gazoo for that matter. Then it evolved into a full structured song. How do they go about adding the bass, the drums and whatever else is needed to make it a full song?

    And lets concentrate on the music here. The lyrics are another beast to tackle altogether.
    There's someone in my head but it's not me.

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