I'm pretty sure Fender never used brazilian rosewood for any of their fingerboards BITD.
They used some on later custom shop guitars.
I'm pretty sure Fender never used brazilian rosewood for any of their fingerboards BITD.
They used some on later custom shop guitars.
Right on stratcat62. I don't think the vintage of a guitar is nearly as important as the qualities of a guitar. The sounds of vintage guitars are just as diverse as the sounds of new guitars. Sure, your Kinman equipped 04 Am Dlx Strat may not sound exactly like YOUR '62 Strat, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that it does sound extremely similar to someone elses vintage Strat. Is that "good" sound? Depends on who you ask.
Is there really such a thing as "Vintage Guitar Tone" which only eminates from old guitars? Not the sound you get when combining a guitar with a particular amp, but the sound a "guitar" makes be it old or new.
I seriously doubt that anyone in a blindfolded sound test could pick the Vintage Guitar out from two others that were set up with similar specs.
To my ear, Vintage is all about bragging rights. Yes, there are some vintage Strats that sound amazing! Just like there are many modern, vintage spec guitars that sound amazing. Ronnie Earl said in an interview, that he plays all relics now because his vintage Strats are just too valuable to take out of the house. He went on to say that the relics are so good, there simply is no difference. I would consider Ronnie Earl somewhat of an authority on vintage Strat tone.
In short, I honestly believe that "vintage tone" exists in guitars of any age and that it simply is not necessary to spend huge amounts of cash to obtain that sound. The only difference between a great sounding relic and a true vintage Strat is "bragging rights".
If I find a vintage Strat that plays right and sounds great, and I can afford it, I would buy it. It's worth it! If I find a new guitar that plays great and sounds great, and I can afford it, I'll buy it and it will sound and play just as good as any old guitar I've ever played.
When it all comes out in the wash, the only tangible, realistic difference for me is "re-sale value." Call me weird, but I buy my guitars with the idea in mind of playing them. Not selling them. So, if the sound and the vibe is there, and it's $10,000 less than the "vintage equivelant", I'm there! YMMV.
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
Huh?................................, OK
There is no bolt together guitar that is worth 10-15k, not to me. Vintage tone only exists today in the here and now, my guitar heroes were playing new instruments, the concept of vintage was never thought of back in that time.
Are there great sounding guitars from the 60's ...yup. Are they all great...nope, but the are all expensive. Good sounding guitars sound good no matter when they were made, and right now there are more good sounding guitars being made than at any other time in history.
Originally Posted by Relicula
Nothing is worth what you don't want to pay for it.
Trust me the Vintage strats are bringing the money!
Now is a relic worth 2k?
Maybe to you but not to me.
I agree that the new guitars are being built great and agree that they also sound great. However when I paid 2k for a 1970 Strat a few years ago and 2.5k for a Custom shop strat. the 1970 blew it away. Now I sold both guitars couldn't get my money back from the custom shop and doubled my money on the 1970. So if you don't think that was worth it. What then?
Perhaps the coolest thing here is that some of the "vintage guys" reading this thread are shaking their heads saying "these guys just don't get it." While the "non-believers" are shaking theirs heads at the vintage guys thinking "these guys just don't get it."
kthesheep
"However when I paid 2k for a 1970 Strat a few years ago and 2.5k for a Custom shop strat. the 1970 blew it away. Now I sold both guitars couldn't get my money back from the custom shop and doubled my money on the 1970. So if you don't think that was worth it. What then?"
This is what's so cool. The above example is totally valid for the person expressing it however, it means nothing to the person who's personal experience has been that Custom Shop Relics play better and sound better on average than any of the vintage guitars they've played. A different person playing kthesheep's guitars might have a totally different experience claiming the 1970 Strat was firewood while the Custom Shop Strat ruled.
So, since you can't account for taste, and technically, it cannot be proven that one vintage guitar or modern guitar actually sounds better than the other, what are we left with?
Bragging rights and personal "perceived value". If you dig it, vintage or not, then that is the right choice.
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
Tele-Bob, You hit the nail right on the head!
lets take it one more step. I still think it is crazy to pay 10k+ for any guitar
I just do because I know someone is just as crazy to take it off my hands when needed. I don't look at these as investments at all. Because of the prices now you can make a littlle somtimes but they are more just assets.
I buy them because I love to play them.
I feel the need to chime in, because the whole vintage market is frankly getting out of hand.
Stevie Ray Vaughan probably triggered the whole rage way back when, but I still don't understand what is so amazing about a plank of wood that just happens to be old. As previously stated, in a blindfolded test, you'd never be able to determine which one is vintage. If it would be *that* obvious, I'd be the first one to take out a 20 000$ loan to find myself the cream or the crop, but the reality is that great guitars can easily be built today.
Warmoth, for instance, gives you all the options you'd ever want to have and more and will build you a totally accurate vintage reproduction that will have extra perks and sound as good, if not better. The fact that there are *some* great-sounding axes that happen to be old shouldn't undermine the fact that the majority stink. How many older Strats just sound empty or soul-less? Plenty. But you don't really hear about those, now do you?
I have to agree with T-B on this one, since I haven't heard anything extraordinary from a vintage axe that can't be reproduced by a similarly made brand spanking new guitar.
Besides, I find that most people are guilty of simply being brainwashed by the market in regards to their tonal worth. I mean, seriously... if I put a real 58 Strat on your lap, you'd probably freak out and state that it sounds absolutely amazing, regardless of whether it does or not. Most people are positively biased when it comes to forming an opinion on that topic. I could easily post an MP3 of a brand new MIM Strat and post it in the Jam Zone and state it was a 58 Strat I just bought by selling my car and people would surely be telling me "Wow, it just sings!"
There's no single characteristic that will make a guitar or any other instrument sound good, much less its age. There are some jewels out there, but like everything else, they're few and far between. It's funny how eBay attracts all the people who'll buy into this "It's old, therefore it sounds amazing, so bid high!" bullshit.
This all goes back to my theory that most "musicians" simply don't even listen. They play, they buy, they look, but they don't listen. Well,... no wonder such myths remain...
Having only played a few classic examples, my .02 may not be worth as much, but here goes...
I look at it like this. An electric guitar, at maximum, is only 50% of the equation when talking about tone. (Probably more like 40%) The amp would be the other half. I think that most people would agree (may be not) that a great amp can make cheap guitar sound good and a good guitar sound great. So I believe with the wonderful parts companies out there, you can make a guitar exactly the way Fender did it back in the day. Plug that guitar into a great amp next to a vintage Fender plugged into a great amp. You will never be able to tell the difference.
Again, just my .02
If it has wheels, tubes or breasts....
..... You're going to have problems with it
Who here has a vintage Strat that just sounds empty or soul-less?
I happen to get around quite a few vintage Strats I don't think the the majority stink. But you are right there are some dogs out there.
But I do agree with you on the blindfold test.
The same thing applies to the vintage car market. Some of us buy them just for the MoJo.
Tele-Bob said it : "perceived value"
And we can have this same discussion about "vintage" amp components. :lol
Umhumm, I always thought that people like Eric Johnson, Mark Knopfler, George Gruhn, Tom Wheeler, Doyle Bramhall, just to name a few, were tripping on mushrooms for spending so much money in old instrument...jaja, they even think that that the sound and quality of these instrument are superior....LOL poor suckers!!!!
Oppps I also forgot to mention that one of my favorite blues guitarrist, Chris Duarte and Martin Landau say that Fender CS are just plain POS...gooooddd what is he thinking? they are all crazy for not having Fender CS....or is it coincidence?
Don't get me wrong. Vintage axes definitely have some kind of appeal. It's a bit overwhelming for me to hold a guitar that is older than I am, that lived through so much, etc... It's great, but that feeling, for me, will only last so long. In the end, what counts with me is tone, tone & tone.
If I can find a "better" tone elsewhere and it just so happens that it's reasonably priced, I'll definitely go for it, but so far, I've never heard a single vintage guitar that ever made me think that modern guitars are so inferior.
But that's just me.
I own both vintage and custom shop stuff, so I fall somewhere in the middle here. I love it all.
Last night I started out playing my John Cruz Masterbuilt. As I was playing it, I was thinking to myself, "You know...it just don't get alot better than this." Then...I made the mistake of putting it down and picking up my 57 beater. As much as all the non-vintage guys wish it were not true, there IS a difference....a "better" difference.
That being said, if all I had was my Masterbuilt, I'd be a happy guy. It sounds wonderful....
I've owned plenty of Masterbuilts in my day. When I've sold them, for whatever reason, I've never made money on them.
Every vintage Fender that I've owned and ultimately sold, I've ALWAYS made money on them.
For the record, custom shop and Masterbuilt Fenders sound a helluva lot closer to the real McCoy than do Historic Les Pauls to real bursts. The Custom Shop at Fender is definitely doing something right...especially John Cruz, who I feel is head and shoulders above the rest of the current Masterbuilders. :ahem
A Les Paul has the balls...but a Strat has the personality...
beautiful thread! hot discussion too...
As I am a 50+ player, I had the "chance" to play this "holy grail" guitars (LP 59, 50 and 60 strat+teles in the late 60ies.)
....in da sleeping London Town.....
oooh! all these guitars: was it a mega-rock band?
No, many gigs, no records, much fun, not too much money...
and the guitars?
out of time, "spare parts" in the deepest corner of the practice room....
and how did you feel using this guitars!!?
was the guest player, could use everything from the darkest corner..... but ooh, burst was an old fashioned out of time colour, and50 strats? old fashioned hilly-billy-country stuff......
and maybe highly reduced chances with chicks.....without a flashy guitar....
and playing!!!?
the LP klusons didn`t keep the tune very well, the other player with his grover LP was in tune all the evening...same with da fenders.....watch your gibson bridge...these saddles could get lost by changing strings ....
but the sound!!!!!!? hey man, the sound!!!!!?
what do you mean? unplugged, +/-different amps +/-stomp boxes +/-mix etc.....
There was really no "special acoustic sensation" in the room when those instruments were plugged in......
old wood left amp, new wood right side,same amp, and back, different amps ...and back again.......
but sorry, absolutely no, no------ "that`s it"------event for the ears....
But what`s about old wood and vintage sound!!!!????
These guitars at that time? no "old wood" just 10 years old....
And EC`s 59LP bluesbreaker sound!!!!?.....
old wood? ---less than ten years at that time, good sound anyways!! hey, try to sale a 95 guitar today as old wood.......they will kill you...
Did you buy one of these these guitars!!!!?
No idea.......and empty pockets these days.......from a players point of view, allright....
and for investment / collector?????
I admit.... could be a reason for manic depression over years....... but don`t worry, I`am happy....
How about this one.
I buy parts all the time to have on hand for restorations.
I had a Burgandy Mist MIM 60s Strat Brand new took a 1963 Strat neck and put it on in place of the MIM neck. This guitar was a bastard that played great.
When I found an original 1963 body to replace the MIM. I put the MIM back to stock and assembled the 1963 neck to the 1963 body.
Neither guitar played as good as the bastard.
So now what?
yep,yep, same experience......
the mix of parts ist the best way to go, of course with try and error....
(and it`s the biggest advantage of the fender-concept too)
To beat a perfect bastard-strat ? very difficult....
and the MIM classic bodys are a great deal.....
But it`s like those "fashion victim" ladies, tell them their new rare and expensiv designer outfit can`t beat the look of their everyday style gear... man, they will kill you.....
To keep things in perspective though, we really need to realize that just because one of us finds things to be a certain way, that doesn't mean it's right for everyone. I have heard people get wonderful sounds out of gear that makes my skin crawl when I try to use it. That doesn't mean it's bad gear. It just means that I don't get along with it. I have played some great vintage gear and some great modern gear.
Let's look at this for a moment.
Great Vintage Gear
Great Modern Gear
The only real difference is the words "vintage" and "modern."
Remove those two words and your left with "Great Gear". Sounds good to me!
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
I quite agree with the logic. While I wouldn't like to part with any of my strats, the real truth is gear is only half the tone. The great players sound great no matter what guitar they're playing. More importantly, regardless of gear you know who is playing instantly by the sound.
The resale value of a guitar is determined by the market and is not a gauge for the quality of the instrument. The real judge of quality is both personal and subjective.
Head, heart and hands create great tone. Good gear, vintage or modern, is simply the vehicle.
....Great Analogies....
Last edited by kthesheep; 02-08-2005 at 04:30 PM.
You've got good points Bob. A good guitar is a good guitar. So many of the vintage pieces that I've come across over the years are just so warm and friendly, and such pristine tone, that they're hard to ignore as credible, but new ones can sound great as well.
Forgive me if this part of the equation has been covered already, but there may be another reason for buying vintage and that is investment opportunites. Some vintage instruments are appreciating faster than any RRSP's you can invest in. Add to this the joy of playing a true vintage guitar with incredible tone and vibe, and it becomes somewhat of a nice little experience. My wife and I for example invested 12G in a mint cond, OHSC '55 Telecaster ( SB) about a year ago. Actually my '68 plays just as good as the '55, but the old girl has an incredible vibe and tone to it. That's not the big thing though. The real deal is that we've been offered 21G for it recently. The whole world is nuts, I think, but in one year, with that small amount of investment dollar, who can name me something with larger returns in a safe, secure manner?? That's like what? 75% return in a year?? I have a '62 Strat that I bought used in 1978 for $600. That was quite a bit of money to me then, but today they ( guitar collectors) will give me up to 30G for it. Easy.
Try that with a Custom Shop! Won't work. Reason? You can ALWAYS buy a CS as easily as you bought the last one. But 1962 only came around once, and they say it was magical. We can argue that fact, but sure can't argue the appreciation of goods. :)
Yup, been covered. A few times.
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
This is a great thread and I agree not all vintage guitars are great.
I'll just offer that many times I've played my '66 strat behind closed doors, teaching, only to get a knock at the door asking what I'm playing. when I pick up a Mexi strat or any U.S. strat I never got that. I have gotten that a few times with relics though.
My '66 does have a sound. I have had students ask how they can get their strat to sound like that. I ask "what do you mean?" and they say your guitar has an "old sound". I was floored, that they were aware of it, and could hear it. I mean we're sitting there playing a C chord or whatever. That has been said to me at least three times by kids or adults that don't know jack about the vintage guitars, but have ears!!!! When you hear it, it's quite obvious, really.
If I took this guitar and recorded it, I bet each every person here could tell it apart from a U.S. standard or MIM strat. Now I believe some of the relics or time machines could be close in tone. But I've worked at a Fender dealer for a lot of years and many of them don't. only a few of them. There is some magic to some of them.
To those that can hear it, it's either a curse or a blessing I still can't tell.
Yes, very interesting thread indeed. Personally, this is what really sticks out to me.
Carry on..............
69strat, I hear what you're saying and I agree. The place where we change lanes though is where a person hears one or two examples of a particular era of guitars and then implies that all guitars from a given era sound better than all the guitars from a different era. And it works both ways. Even though the vast majority of vintage Strats I've played were junk, (to me), I have also played a few examples that were stellar. Very much like there are a few modern guitars I've played that were exemplary. The point being that just because it's modern, or vintage, really has no bearing on what the potential sound will be. At least in reality.
Honestly, it all comes down to what makes a player feel good. I hear all these sound clips of guitars and p'ups and amps and it all sounds good. I don't hear huge differences in the sounds. And I also hear people get great sounds from gear I would never even consider. Likewise, there are people who can't pound out a decent tone from the gear I like.
One of my favorite examples of this is the old JCM800 Marshalls. They really sound great when I listen to someone playing through one. When I try though, it feels like there's a few milliseconds time delay between what I play and when it actually come out of the amp. It just feels constipated. The sound doesn't flow right. Sounds good. Doesn't feel good.
To me, guitars are the same way. If it doesn't feel good to play it, regardless of age, it doesn't make it into my stable. Doesn't mean it's a bad guitar. It just means it's not right for me. Perhaps that's the most important thing. To realize what feels best regardless of the name, shape, color or vintage.
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
That's the biggie TB, The FEELING is the biggest part for me. Many times a listener wouldn't even be able to tell if the guitar is a strat or a Les Paul with a lot of distortion or whatever let alone a new strat from an old one.
This thread got all off on a tangent about the relative merits of a the vintage strat vs a bunch of stuff. If someone wants to have a vintage strat, that's a worthwhile goal as long as they know what they are getting in to and can handle the price. These days I'm not sure how important the "vintage strat experience" is based on how spendy they are. When I bought my firewood 20 years ago, it was expensive, but not so bad relative to other guitars at about list price of a new 335 (back then). I am glad that I have one and it's the strat that will stay with me 'til I leave this mortal coil. My second fave is my pink Warmoth with the Japanese Squire neck and T-Top humbuckers!
Didn't mean to divert the thread, but the ensuing discussion has been most interesting.
One of my favorite guitars is my $150 Tex-Mex Strat. I totally understand what you're saying.
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
It's been a great thread, eh?
We all help to divert.
A '63 showed up on the San Francisco Craigslist today for $7500.
Here's the link if anyone is interested:
'63 Strat on craigslist
Knowledge is the small part of ignorance that we arrange and classify. -- Ambrose Bierce
Here are a few things that could make a Vintage guitar sound better than a new one.
The wood and the materials used in the pickups.
The older wood used in the Vintage ones had way less smog and other stuff to deal with than todays wood does.
The wire used in the old pickups was alot more pure than todays wire is.
We all know that a magic combo of the right body mated with the right neck can make a killer guitar from just about any parts.
I can see however where a Vintage one might have an advantage mostly from the better pickups they have.
If you compare guitars to stereos the pickups are kinda like the stylus and the speakers and power amp is the Amp. We all know any stereo can only sound as good as its speakers and the speakers can only sound as good as the amp and the way the stylus makes contact with the record grooves and transmits that sound to the speakers.
When we discuss these things we never mention anything about the amp and speakers we are using which to me is a very important part of it all too.
I'm not sure I buy into the materials thing. To the best of my knowledge, wire guage tolerances are better now than they ever were. Someone could make the argument that more precise wire makes a worse sound. I don't know that to be true. And the issue of pollution makes a rather large assumption as well. Who's to say that pollution doesn't contribute to making guitars actually sound better? Sure, wood is a natural thing, but from that point forward, the entire process of making a sound with an electric guitar becomes very unnatural. So a person could rightfully make the argument that "pure wood" is just too natural for the process and therefore should only be used in acoustic guitars. The point is, anything is possible. And a valid argument can be made for almost anything. But in order to make the above arguments there first has to be an assumption that vintage gear sounds better. I don't nesessarily agree that is so. Personally I find that some vinatge gear sounds great while other vintage gear sucks. Just like modern gear.
If you remove the "mystique" of vintage gear, you remove the value.
If anyone were to ever clearly explain the "mystique" of vintage gear it would remove the value. As long as "vintage mystique" remains unexplainable, the value will remain unattainable.
People say that true vintage tone cannot be duplicated. I couldn't disagree more. True vintage tone is an idea. Not a fact. It covers a variety of sounds that are just as different and diverse as the sounds modern guitars make today. Personally, I don't think "vintage guitar tone" is definable as it relates solely to the instrument. The combination of a particular guitar with a particular amp can be identified as "vintage tone", but I'm not sure I haven't heard that with modern gear too, given the diversity of both modern and vintage tones.
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
I started playing guitar in 1965 by 1966 I could actually play a little and got an ES335 and a BF Super Reverb and in 67 got a Fuzz face and cry baby wah.
That was a pretty good rig for a 17 yr old huh but back then it was just considered regular stuff.
I clearly remember the salesman steering me away from the new Fenders cause he said CBS had just bought them and all the new ones were junk as compared to the ones a couple years older.
Then in the early 70's the "Vintage" craze took over and it hasnt been the same since.
What if we could go back in time to lets say 1965 when there were lots of Vintage guitars that hadnt turned Vintage yet did they all sound magic back then? Of course not. As I remember when I first started playing all anyone cared about was they had a guitar and it seemed like new strings were more important than anything to a good sound. I remember giving blood several tikes and used the $10 on new strings!
LOL! You're hardcore man!
If you're bored, you're not groovin'.
Word.
:)
What me and a friend used to do is both go together donate blood. I would buy 2 sets of strings with my $10 and my friend would buy a bag of weed which was $10 a oz back then.
I would give him a set of strings and he would give me 1/2 the bag.
We were both happy campers.
Now where is some of that "Vintage" smoke it sure is better than the stuff I can get now a days NOT!! hahah :nelson
I couldn't agree more. That's like trying to make me believe that it would be possible to describe the color "red" to a blind man who has never seen anything, before. It's just impossible. I like people who start a sentence with "Real vintage tone..." That's just laughable.
As I said before, if my ears can't detect it, I don't care if it's a 57 Strat, I'm not interested. To me, what makes me feel good is the sound, not the bragging rights of owning an old guitar or the prestige amongst other guitarists that I own that older guitar.
I've got quite an ear (not trying to brag, but I do), but even I would never be able to detect the age of an instrument just by *hearing* it. That's just a ridiculous notion to me. I find it a shame that to a lot of guitarists, the age of the instrument is more important than the way it really sounds. I'm sure a lot of people have stock modern Strats or even slightly-modified ones that can easily match the tone of the older guitars at a fraction of the cost... *BUT* you can't brag that you own a 40 year-old guitar. ;)
Put a blindfold on me and let me play with half a dozen guitars and put a few vintage ones in the pack, played through the same amp and you'd be surprised what would come out as being "on top."
If you (as in whoever is debating that vintage guitars *do* automatically or usually sound "better") can't prove with a blindfold test that older guitars perform "better", there's no point in discussing "sound." In that case, it's all about the look, the style, or the pleasure of owning a classic. But it definitely has nothing to do with "Ooh, it sounds so much better than the new ones."
I would be willing to wage serious money that most people owning a vintage Strat would never be able to discern them through a blindfold test. People have too much of a wild tendency to "listen" through their eyes.
There are a few things that can make an old strat different to a new one. Some, however, can be reproduced. Things like the aging of the magnets in the pickups can be artificially done, as can the battered vintage look. There are other things that are vastly more intangible, not least to me is the feel, theres something that the right guitar has, in the way it wears, that is magic. The neck can kind of 'fit' your hand in a way that I have never felt on a brand new guitar simply through the way someone has played it, it's the reason I'm going to refret my cheap strat, and also the reason that the two best guitars I have ever played were a '58 and a '63 strat. Both sounded great, and I don't deny that this part could possibly be matched or bettered, but they felt amazing. It's absolutely true that this is in no way consistent, the absolute worst guitar I have ever played was a '59 burst Les Paul, and vastly more of the vintage axes I have played have been this way than those special two with the magic.
That the magic can exist is undeniable, the fact that it's harder to find than interstellar bicycles is just as undeniable......go figure.
Back when a "nickel bag" was really 5 bucks!
I lived in a small town back then, and getting strings was just plain hard to do. I think we conned the drug store owner into bringing them in sometimes, but he'd make mistakes, and bring in Black Diamond acoustic strings sometimes. Then we'd cobble something together best we could out of these sets, and plug our period pieces into mid 60's black face amps, and we thought we were kings. Apparently we were, because the price of the guitars and amps we played every day is now a King's ransom.
I remember Dad telling me how nearly impossible it was during the Second World War getting strings, because the steel all went to the war effort.
I also own both, two real '56s and two Masterbuild Strats a '56 copy and a '54 anniversary. I totally agree with CDaughtry, I just favor Chris Fleming as Masterbuilder. I haven't played a better Strat than my vintage one, but on the other hand the '54 Masterbuild is very close to real ones. That's the guitar I take out and it's my new number one.
My two vintage '56s are in the 25+k$ range in todays vintage market, I don't think I would spend that money. But I wouldn't sell mine either, because it is not easy to get great sounding vintage Strats. Most owners will not part with them, the ones which "cirlce" a lot in the vintage market are not the best examples of what pre-CBS (specially the 50's) sound like.
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