Finger Flashing Speed = Excellence?

[FenderBoy]

When was it that a well executed melody or a simply stated guitar line started to lose out to flashyness?
Or, maybe what I'm really asking is why is it that the speed of a guitar player is SO OFTEN seen as the MOST important measure of greatness?

I've been thinking about this again since I attended a jam where I ran into a guy from the other Fender forum who used to play with a group I later joined in his place.
When I left that group because the set list was just SO LAME it was unbelievable, the lead guitar player asked if I had quit because he was SO good.
All he was was fast. He could run up and down the neck five times in three seconds but gave little consideration to using his instrument to actually say something.

Now, I don't think that everything should be simply stated, but I just wonder why it appears as though the first thing lots of players go for today is speed over content.

[Motojunkie]

When was it that a well executed melody or a simply stated guitar line started to lose out to flashyness?
Or, maybe what I'm really asking is why is it that the speed of a guitar player is SO OFTEN seen as the MOST important measure of greatness?

I've been thinking about this again since I attended a jam where I ran into a guy from the other Fender forum who used to play with a group I later joined in his place.
When I left that group because the set list was just SO LAME it was unbelievable, the lead guitar player asked if I had quit because he was SO good.
All he was was fast. He could run up and down the neck five times in three seconds but gave little consideration to using his instrument to actually say something.

Now, I don't think that everything should be simply stated, but I just wonder why it appears as though the first thing lots of players go for today is speed over content.

Good question...I wonder the same thing. I thought that maybe I was just a little insecure since I'm not fast or flashy, but now I see that maybe that's not the case.

[rant]
The thing I can't stand is when a guy is fast as hell, yet can't stay in key. Then when said guy is finished wanking, he's all proud of his playing....I'm thinking - "Does this guy have any hearing whatsoever? How the hell can he be so smug over playing like crap?"

I used to be called "stone hands" when I played football since I couldn't catch...I have since referred to these type guys as having "stone ears". [/rant]

Thanks for listening to my little rant.

[FenderBoy]

I hear ya moto.

Last jam I attended this fella gets up and plays lightening fast licks every time it's his turn...but he was out of tune...and didn't bother to make any adjustments between songs during the three tune set.

Afterwards, he was oblivious to that when it was mentioned to him.

"Really?"

[Cogs]

I for one like fast playing. But not for it's own sake. If it doesn't sound good at half speed, it won't sound good at warp, either. But a burst of speed or a flurry of notes at the right time is cool, IMO.

[cooltone]

Some of that can be compared to athletics. Me on the rings compared to Paul Hamm...no contest. There is a certain grace, art and beauty to what he does. When Vince Gill plays with jaw dropping speed, it's the same thing. There's a lot of other players like him, too.

There can be a certain 'sour grapes' that goes along with my criticism of wanking speed freaks, 'cause I can't do it and wish I could. But, I'd like to think that I have an ear for what works and what doesn't.

[Cogs]

When someone goes off constantly, it's obvious they've picked up some kind of "look at me" attitude. That stems from an insecurity & some unhealthy need for attention.
Jerry Garcia used to say, "serve the MUSIC".

[VibroCount]

Jerry Garcia used to say, "serve the MUSIC".

!

Can we have an "Amen"?

!

Oh, yeah...!

[tonemonkey]

Speed=excellence?

Nah. Speed can be a facet in the jewel of excellence, but a jewel with a single facet, does very little in the way of sparkling. I'm not particularly fast or flash, but I think I have some taste. Other people are fast without the taste. What you need is really a little of both sides of the coin, or a lot if you want to be regarded as truly great.

There are some folks who have it, and a hell of a lot more who think they do, and what they have really is just dexterity. Very impressive in a wayto make your fingers move that fast, but really it's pointless, as it says nothing. Problem is that many people who do not have a truly musical ear are impressed by it, and when they fete the performer an already overlarge ego gets further boosted.

[juniorspecial]

I blame the "idea" that speed = excellence squarely where it belongs:

Alvin Lee!

He's the culprit!


:lol

[Tele-Bob]

As one who is in the process of slowing down, I totally understand what FB is saying. I can still slash and burn when necessary, but I only whip that out once or twice a night and try to do it as a cresciendo towards the end of a solo. I play in two host bands at the open mic and I see lots of players come up and participate in the speed contest. Some guys are so bent on speed that all they do is execute patterns and scales. There is nothing "musical" about what they're playing. They're playing, but they're not players.
These guys treat the verse, bridge and chorus of a song as "those annoying parts between their solos." Why is soloing so friggin important anyway? Very few people in the audience actually give a damn if you can solo well or not. But everyone in the audience is very responsive to a great rythm groove. (which about 98% of what a band should be doing during the course of a night)

[moonpie]

Eric Clapton
B B King
Albert King
Jimmy Vaughn
Mark Knopfler
Steve Cropper
Curtis Mayfield
Pop Staples


None of them are fast and flashy, and I could listen to them play all day long.

BTW: I can play the Minute Waltz in 27 seconds. :wail2

[sabby]

I'm more impressed by a player coax ten tones out of one, languid bent note and a player who throws in 100 notes in the same time. Yet, I have to admit that I've been working on playing note-y runs in low-volume swells, as if thery're waftin in from the distance. There's something tateful about understaed gaudiness -- if such a thing can exist. But the louder get, I tend to sustained melodies with those languid, coaxed notes. (Or at least I try with fitful success.)

[Offshore Angler]

It's just one thing in your bag of tricks. Going from 1/4's to 1/8s through to 32nds is a great way to build a solo to a higher energy level. Plus, and yep -I'm saying it again - there is a level of showmanship required to be a great player in a live setting. You are a PERFORMER onstage as well as an artist.

Playing at lightning speed is neither right or wrong in and of itself. It depends entirely on CONTEXT. If you're doing "Hot for Teacher" I think a Billy Gibbons approved slow burn isn't going to sound real good. If you're doing "Crazy" hammer-on arpeggios might not fit to well.

I will buck the system though, and say that being able to pull off a few high speed jaw-dropper licks every night is one of the talents you need have to be considered a good all-around gigging guitarist.

Let's face it. THERE ARE a lot of sour grapes flying around in the world of guitar players. Remember the old joke - How many guitar players does it take to change a light bulb?

FYI - the answer is 12. One to do it and 11 to sit and watch and say "I could have done it better."

It's also the source of a lot of gear snobbery, IMHO. "Sure he can play, but I have a 50's Custom Shop Strat and a Dumble" seems to be a prevalent attitude lately.

Bob, Rickenjangle, and some of the other guys I play or have played with are pretty darned good. And they all have the same attitude - I'm comfortable being who I am doing what I do, and realise that being a good gigger means not only doing what you like well, but a few things you don't like to do too. That's why you practice. To get better at the things that are not natural to you. Then you grow an develop, and the band sounds better.

So, yes, I do think speed (combined with accuracy, timing, and proper use in context) IS one of the measures of a great guitar player and something we should all work at.

[FenderBoy]

"Serve the music" -

AMEN!

[Rickenjangle]

Bob, Rickenjangle, and some of the other guys I play or have played with are pretty darned good. And they all have the same attitude - I'm comfortable being who I am doing what I do, and realise that being a good gigger means not only doing what you like well, but a few things you don't like to do too.

Thanks for the kind words, OA. The funny thing is, I have never had blazing speed. I like to manhandle the guitar neck and wring notes out of it, never been able to gently play. After this weekend's 2 four-hour gigs, my hands were pretty wrecked. I stopped chasing the speed dragon a couple years ago when I started writing songs. It's what makes me happy, and sure, I'd love to be able to do a little more 'shredding' but I had to go where my strengths lie, and I have more to say, musically and lyrically, by being the singer who takes fewer solos. (except when the spirit takes me...but then I find I'm recycling the same couple-dozen licks)

Speaking of licks, OA's got the whole package: a large back catalog of tasty riffs, speed on tap but never overused, great tone, and above all, taste. Mikey and I were grinning like fools when we first had Chuck in to play...suddenly I was hearing the things I wanted to hear but couldn't play while I was singing.

So, to relate back to the original topic: Speed = excellence? Well, put my vote in for "The song's the thing" and if the speed is serving the song, then that's great. If not, you might as well be performing circus tricks.

[dez]

Nothing wrong with speed and nothing wrong with slowness. If one plays the way they play and just tries to make good music what's the difference? Not everyone is going to succeed at what they try but if one plays honestly and from the heart, whether burning or smoldering, I give them credit.

[Wilko]

Clapton is called "SLOWHAND" and it's a compliment.

do the math.

[curtisstetka]

Some of the greatest music on the planet was written by JS Bach. If any of you have ever attempted to learn and master a piece you know that it requires some major chops to play it in a tasteful, musical fashion.

The speed isn't the main thing going on. But the beautiful music in some cases just isn't possible without it.

There's obviously more to great playing than speed but unfortunately for those of us who seem cursed to second gear, it is one of the essential elements.

Like Teleboob was saying, it's a cool thing to have in your pants to whip out a couple times a night. Uh, he was talking about speedy playing, right?

[Rickenjangle]

... Teleboob ...

Freudian slip...or in-joke...you be the judge. :rofl

[curtisstetka]

In-joke, I swear.

I got to thinking some more about this. You know, in many ways the guitar lends itself to various "tricks" that sound flashy but are not in fact that difficult to play. I'm sure you can think of some. We've all got 'em.

Maybe it's a topic for another thread but it seems to me that very often there are ways to generate audience excitement and musical intensity that are not always speed-dependant.

Sure, a flurry of 32nd notes makes the kids excited but sometimes just hanging onto one note and making it sing does even more. Ripping scales up and down all over the place may be melodically interesting in some ways but personally (being speed-retarded for the most part) I like to play something harmonic, rhythmic, or timbrely (is that a word?) interesting instead. Lay down some 3 against the groove's 4 and see what happens, that sort of thing.

[NeoFauve]

I know a pretty good way to slow down.
Smash the crap out of your fretting hand wrist, to the point where the Doc setting the bone bits in place goes a little blank when you mention you're a musician. I don't really recommend it though.

But during my recupperation time I heard and got John Hiatt's "Bring the Family." The first time I'd really heard Ry Cooder.
Kinda' opened my eyes to the idea that lyrics matter, and a guitar solo can be just as poetic.
All the parts of that band mesh so nicely. I heard it and didn't really say, "How'd they do that?" It was more like, "Ahhhh, they did that."

Not being able to pick up my guitar really altered what I looked for in music.

[hudpucker]

Let's face it. THERE ARE a lot of sour grapes flying around in the world of guitar players.

One of the first things my first gtr teacher (who also played gtr for Junior Walker, FWIW) told me was that 'musicians are jealous bitches.' In retrospect, generally speaking, he was correct.

Instead of, say, blues guys and shredders finding solidarity in both being guitarists, more often than not they are in competition, if only in their heads.

"Way too many notes. He's overplaying badly--sounds like a typewriter."

"Well now, that's only the 13th time he's played that same lick tonight."


After I had learned my 'classic rock' jams, I got into shred for a couple of years in the mid 80s. Shred definitely helped me grow as a musician since I was compelled to learn basic theory and my technical prowess increased seemingly exponentially. So why did I get out of shred? Frankly, I saw it as a dead-end venture--the equivalent of musical calisthenics. Sure, it's nice to be able to sprint faster than most but sometimes you don't have to run to get to where you want to go. Sometimes, though, it does help. As a result of learning how to shred, I have, despite the years, retained a 'top gear' that most players (who aren't currently active shredders) can't match. Frankly, lots of we 80s kids are in this same boat.

Is this 'top gear' necessary? Nope.
Does it make me a better musician? Not intrinsically, no.
Is it appropriate at certain times? You bet it is--especially playing live when drunken patrons want a bit of 'flash' or as an unexpected phrase in a recording/performance.

When fast playing becomes the end instead of a means to a musical or artistic end then it has gone too far, IMO. Fast for fast's sake is boring to me; fast in the context of a certain song/phrase can really move me, however.

Most youngsters who start out looking to be super-fast players do so within an immature context--learning to play fast just to be fast. Realize, though, that most will eventually move to other areas of musicianship and that labelling these unfinished/unevolved players as mere 'speed demons' effectively short changes their still untapped potential. Most active speedsters are younger---they didn't move from blues or jazz. A lot of jazz and blues players, however, are former shredders.

Keep in mind that 'fast' is also quite subjective. One player might find, say, Van Halen to be fast; others might scoff at VH's 'speed' and be more impressed with Michael Angelo. What's 'fast', then? Depends on where you're coming from.

The ability to sprint is never a liability; rather, it is when you needlessly sprint continuously that you may look foolish to some.

[Rickenjangle]

I I like to play something harmonic, rhythmic, or timbrely (is that a word?) interesting instead. Lay down some 3 against the groove's 4 and see what happens, that sort of thing.

You raise a good point, Curtis. As a speed-challenged player myself, I try to develop some kind of interesting melodic motif. But what seems to go over best with crowds of bar patrons who just want to dance...is rhythm. Taking a single lick and playing in repeatedly but varying the rhythm is a cool way to build tension. I use that lick during E blues tunes where you play the 14th fret of the G string, bend it up a full tone, then fret and play the B and E strings at the 12th fret. I do it a lot, and it sounds like a Chuck Berry lick, but sometimes what I do is make it last 4 beats, then cut it and make it 3 and then cram it into 2 beats, so it speeds up in relation to the rhythm section. Seems to kick the song into higher gear, and because it's being played over different chords, there's a harmonic tension too.

By the way, I *think* the word is "timbrally," if there is such a word.

[Kap'n]

When I left that group because the set list was just SO LAME it was unbelievable, the lead guitar player asked if I had quit because he was SO good.
All he was was fast. He could run up and down the neck five times in three seconds but gave little consideration to using his instrument to actually say something.

I had a very hard time finding a band in Rochester in the late 80's specifically because of this. It ended up being such a dry place I ended up recording for Luther and the BBB's just for something to do.

[Offshore Angler]

Rickenjangle, back at ya'.

OK, first some R&R history. EC got the name "Slowhand" due to the clapping the audience would do while he changed a string - one he broke during one of his pointless wanking out of time solos he was famous for at the time. Think "Crossroads".

And Hudpucker brings up a very good point. Most shredders have a vastly superior understanding of theory than the average pentatonic blues buster. You have to know theory to put those licks together and make them sound good. EVH is a master. Most of the cool shredding is based in classical. So lets give the guys their props.

[Rickenjangle]

... Luther and the BBB's just for something to do.

Ah, so you met him too, huh? I met and jammed with him once but we weren't on the same page, musically. He had a droolworthy collection of Vox amps, though, and a nice home studio. I wasn't wild about his aesthetic, and he obviously wasn't interested in working with me, either.

[Rickenjangle]

OK, first some R&R history. EC got the name "Slowhand" due to the clapping the audience would do while he changed a string - one he broke during one of his pointless wanking out of time solos he was famous for at the time. Think "Crossroads".

I think that this was actually during his tenure as a BluesBreaker, if I'm not mistaken. His blues playing was a little bit tighter then, more structured, as opposed to the Cream period. Speaking of Crossroads, I've read in numerous interviews that he cringes when listening to the solos on that song, in particular the place where he gets off the rhythm. Me? That's my favorite part of the solo; it makes it so much more unique.

[Kap'n]

Ah, so you met him too, huh? I met and jammed with him once but we weren't on the same page, musically. He had a droolworthy collection of Vox amps, though, and a nice home studio. I wasn't wild about his aesthetic, and he obviously wasn't interested in working with me, either.

Yep, and an awesome Rick Combo 800. His bit was recording Xmas records. He figured all he had to do was have one hit, and it'd pay him off every year for the rest of his life.

It's a Credit Card Christmas

Are You Ready for Christmas?

Ooh, ooh, Wha'd You Get?

I recorded a few tunes with him. No idea whether he kept the tracks. I didn't come back after he started telling me about a store up in Canada, where he could outfit the band with Beatle-boots.

One of the more famous local bands referred to him as "Loser."

[EJG]

I'm not very good at all, so I don't need to worry about this. My son, however, is getting pretty good. He's been concentrating on getting faster lately, and has achieved remarkable results. However, after one of his acoustic shows during which he blazed away at top speed all night long, I told him that while its impressive, it leads to ear fatigue on the part of the listeners after a while. He took this to heart and during his most recent shows he's only let loose a few times. The result has been a much more favorable audience reaction. He seems to get many more compliments (and phone numbers of young ladies) now.

[moonpie]

Think of the intro to "Teach Your Children"

Jerry Garcia playing steel guitar..............it ain't fast or flashy, but it sure hits the spot.

Think of the sax riff in Gerry Raferty's "Baker Street"..........
it ain't fast or flashy, but it sure hit's the spot.


Some of you old farts remember a song called "Love is Strange" by Mickey&Sylvia......that lick is what the term "hook" is all about.
Mickey Baker also taught guitar and wrote books about jazz technique.
He could have played whatever he wanted at that break, but those ten notes are perfect....just what the song needed.


I get turned off real quick with folks playing behind their head, duck walking, turning back flips while they play notes that don't mean anything.


For me, the closer I can get to a vocal sound from my guitars, the gladder (I couldn't spell happy er) I am, and Southerners don't talk fast.

Or a sax....I like to try to sound like a sax.




Or a train.....can't play country if you can't sound like a train whistle.

[Kap'n]

Some of you old farts remember a song called "Love is Strange" by Mickey&Sylvia......that lick is what the term "hook" is all about.

Yep, and Mickey had tone that would take Albert Collins' head off! I would not have wanted to be in the same room when that was recorded.

Yet it works perfectly in the song.

[Mikey]

Guys, interesting thread. But.... I've seen it at least a dozen times. only in the context of drummers. It's all the vogue now to be fast. In drummer-land being fast is near to God. Funny, but I haven't met anyone over 25 that believes it to be the case. Most of us pursue speed as a way of getting noticed. Speed drumming definately has it's place, especially in drum lines for school marching bands and maybe even a little in punk music. When I challenged an entire drum forum population to name one song where drumming speed made the record a million seller, no one claimed the prize.
Certainley, in exercising our chops, there is value to speed. You never know when being able to put in 4 bars of uber speed paradiddle fill might just add to the song you know, but normally you just don't need it. Only musicians can appreciate it anyway. So.............. drummers just eventually wise up and come to the place of serving the song in a rational way speed-wise and most guitarists, I assume grow-up musically as well. It just so damn maddening that the ones who don't mature get the spot light and kick our asses financially. Oh well, so goes the world.

[Mikey]

Oh!, thanks for the "Love Is Strange" reference. I used to listen to that song sooooo much. It was almost perfect. Way ahead of it's time.

[Offshore Angler]

Moonpie, I hear ya'. The thing I'm trying to say is that just because something isn't another's cup of tea, it doesn't make it wrong or talentless.

[moonpie]

We're in agreement there for sure OA.

[Rickenjangle]

Yep, and an awesome Rick Combo 800. His bit was recording Xmas records. He figured all he had to do was have one hit, and it'd pay him off every year for the rest of his life.

It's a Credit Card Christmas

Are You Ready for Christmas?

Ooh, ooh, Wha'd You Get?

I recorded a few tunes with him. No idea whether he kept the tracks. I didn't come back after he started telling me about a store up in Canada, where he could outfit the band with Beatle-boots.

One of the more famous local bands referred to him as "Loser."

Yeah, Ooh, ooh, Wha'd You Get (for Christmas)...now, there's a song that really gives me that old Christmas cheer

Was that band the Chesterfield Kings, by any chance? And what's with the name of L's band...BBB's...Bothered By Boredom...Breastfed By Bullshit is what a friend of mine said about them...lol

[Offshore Angler]

Yeah, and I'm just a defenseless little poodle avatar. I'm not messing with the moonpie "make my day" avatar!

[Motojunkie]

My saying is - "I'd much rather be David Gilmour than Yngwie Malmsteen....."

And, that pretty much sums up where I'd like to be......

[Kap'n]

Was that band the Chesterfield Kings, by any chance? And what's with the name of L's band...BBB's...Bothered By Boredom...Breastfed By Bullshit is what a friend of mine said about them...lol

I don't want to get into a Kitty Kelly moment here, but it was probably someone in the band, or a spouse of theirs. It certainly wasn't the folks from the world's loudest band,
IMMACULATE MARY!

Luther said BBB stood for "Bothered by Boredom." Odd for somebody who spent his musical career strip-mining the 1964-5 era Beatles.

[chuckocaster]

i think a guitar player should only be measured by how fast he can hammer on/pull off while pointing at the crowd with his freehand. call me crazy, but that takes true musicianship.