About buying vintage Fenders

[BluejazzMalmsteen]

Over the past year I've bought 3 vintage guitars and had to send them right back to the respective dealers because of undisclosed or misrepresented info on problems with them.
And...whenever I talk to MOST dealers about vintage instruments, they flat out lie...or...refuse to give details that Im asking about regarding the quality of parts of the guitar....especially when it comes to questions about the neck!!
such as ..."is there a flip at the end of the neck?....does each note on each string play clearly above the 12th fret?" They grab the guitar play some chords and say.."sounds okay to me." Idiots!!
Im including so called "vintage only" dealers in this as well.
They tend to be VAGUE when I ask just general questions. I basically have to ask 20, or so, extemely specific questions...and when I hit the right one...then..pandoras box finally opens and I start to get the scoop that maybe its just another POS that Im inquiring about. I find the entire process time consuming and frustrating and expensive.

[Jim barth]

I have had good luck with Southworth's, Dave's Guitar Sh0p. Buck Sulcers Guitar Network, and Rumble Seat Music.

[BluejazzMalmsteen]

Yeah, I deal with Dave's a lot on new guitars ..some used..they're good. But Southworth out and out lied about a '60's strat they sent to me. Thanks for the tips on the other two..I'll check them out.

[Marcondo]

The problem as I see it is most dealers just arent as into it as most of the people that frequent these guitar forums.

I'd say the average guy/gal that just hangs around a good guitar forum for a few months and learns and reads knows more than most Vintage guitar dealers.

I've sent back several new guitars just becauise I didnt like the way they play. Remember just because a guitar is Vintage doesnt automaticly make it a killer axe just means its old.

If I ever bought a Vintage instrument I would have to purchase it from the original owner and know its history maybe see some pics of the owner with the guitar in the 50's etc.

Its pretty easy to fake Vintage Fenders and I suspect at least 25-30% for sale out there are fakes.

[cody]

Originally posted by Marcondo
The problem as I see it is most dealers just arent as into it as most of the people that frequent these guitar forums.

I'd say the average guy/gal that just hangs around a good guitar forum for a few months and learns and reads knows more than most Vintage guitar dealers.

I disagree. A lot of vintage dealers are collectors and extremely knowledgeable about old guitars, they publish or contribute to books on the subject, and quite a few are members of/visitors to websites such as this.

More often than not, when I go to a vintage store and ask questions about something that looks a bit off (far too common), I'm met by a disinterested "huh", "I never noticed" or "hard to say".
On a couple of these occasions, someone walks in the door with a guitar he's looking to sell, and the change is remarkable.
I always pay close attention when this happens, because this is when I learn some of the finer details of spotting non-originalities, repairs, key places to inspect a guitar.
Now, suddenly, nothing gets past the dealer. The confused guy who was surprised when you pointed out that this guitar's neck is in fact three-piece is GONE.
In his place is a Master who turns the guitar over a couple of times, and says something like: "This body is definitely newer than the neck... What is the body, a '64?"

I make mental notes of who seems trustworthy, and I'm bummed to read the above thing about Southworth... Never heard a bad thing about Dave's, but another store mentioned here did buy a Goldtop LP off eBay; entire top oversprayed, a few issues according to the seller... when it came up on the store's website a few weeks later, there was no mention of overspray or issues; in fact, now it was "the ONE". I guess you have to ask the probing questions no matter who you deal with...
I've tried asking dealers: "Is there anything I didn't ask that I should know about", but only gotten a defensive "Whaddaya mean?", followed by a vague "It's a great little guitar, what can I say". Still got stiffed. :! :!

[qtipburst]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim barth
I have had good luck with Southworth's, Dave's Guitar Sh0p. Buck Sulcers Guitar Network, and Rumble Seat Music. [/QUOT

Jim I feel sorry for you exept for Dave those others are real POS in my book. I have sent guitars back to every one of them. :dead :gun2

[qtipburst]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BluejazzMalmsteen
Yeah, I deal with Dave's a lot on new guitars ..some used..they're good. But Southworth out and out lied about a '60's strat they sent to me. Thanks for the tips on the other two..I'll check them out. [/QUOT

I would be very careful with Rumble Seat they lie about everything they can get away with.

[qtipburst]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marcondo
The problem as I see it is most dealers just arent as into it as most of the people that frequent these guitar forums.

I'd say the average guy/gal that just hangs around a good guitar forum for a few months and learns and reads knows more than most Vintage guitar dealers.

I've sent back several new guitars just becauise I didnt like the way they play. Remember just because a guitar is Vintage doesnt automaticly make it a killer axe just means its old.

If I ever bought a Vintage instrument I would have to purchase it from the original owner and know its history maybe see some pics of the owner with the guitar in the 50's etc.

Its pretty easy to fake Vintage Fenders and I suspect at least 25-30% for sale out there are fakes. [/QUOTE




Hi Mark , it's a vintage dealers job to "know" everything about what he/she is selling. Most of the dealers "do" know and pass off a bad guitar any way that's the problem. It's just plain dishonest dealing. These crooks wouldn't dare try that to people in the know. They love newbe's they can bend over. I swear 85% if all the vintage guitar dealers are dishonest crooks who should be locked up.

[qtipburst]

Sorry for the rant , but this stuff makes me very ,very angry. I love vintage guitars ,but they are almost imposible to buy now. If one is really clean & original it's huge $$$. When you see the"to good too be ture" price it's beat to shit or all changed or broken up. I'm done with vintage , I'v been lied to , cheated & rooked out of $1000's , but I don't blame anyone but myself for being ignorant. I'm very well studied now, but it took a lot of hard lessons to get there. Just be carful out there. I'll tell you the real dope about any dealer just drop me an email and I'd be glad to help anyone buying a vintage guitar.

[60Strat]

Originally posted by BluejazzMalmsteen
Over the past year I've bought 3 vintage guitars and had to send them right back to the respective dealers because of undisclosed or misrepresented info on problems with them.
And...whenever I talk to MOST dealers about vintage instruments, they flat out lie...or...refuse to give details that Im asking about regarding the quality of parts of the guitar....especially when it comes to questions about the neck!!
such as ..."is there a flip at the end of the neck?....does each note on each string play clearly above the 12th fret?" They grab the guitar play some chords and say.."sounds okay to me." Idiots!!
Im including so called "vintage only" dealers in this as well.
They tend to be VAGUE when I ask just general questions. I basically have to ask 20, or so, extemely specific questions...and when I hit the right one...then..pandoras box finally opens and I start to get the scoop that maybe its just another POS that Im inquiring about. I find the entire process time consuming and frustrating and expensive.

Just one silly question:
Why do you buy music instruments unseen and without playing them if you`ve got that big problems with the dealers?
What do you expect?
"Yes this instrument for 10.000 $ has a fret buzz on the G string at Fret 13!" ?????
These guys want to sell their instruments!
20 extremely specific questions?????
:lolspin
Well I think my dealer would never give me answer to 20 extremely specific questions! He would ask me to come and play that axe!

Just my 2cent

[qtipburst]

60 Burst your right. I always go & personaly inspect & play vintage gutars before I buy them. I drove 1000 mi. to buy my 1958 Gold Top & wouldn't have done it any other way. :) :nya :wail1 :wav

[Nelson F]

Originally posted by qtipburst
60 Burst your right. I always go & personaly inspect & play vintage gutars before I buy them. I drove 1000 mi. to buy my 1958 Gold Top & wouldn't have done it any other way. :) :nya :wail1 :wav

Ying Yang! That's 60 strat not 60 Burst""""

[BluejazzMalmsteen]

Originally posted by 60Strat


Just one silly question:
Why do you buy music instruments unseen and without playing them if you`ve got that big problems with the dealers?
What do you expect?
"Yes this instrument for 10.000 $ has a fret buzz on the G string at Fret 13!" ?????
These guys want to sell their instruments!
20 extremely specific questions?????
:lolspin
Well I think my dealer would never give me answer to 20 extremely specific questions! He would ask me to come and play that axe!

Just my 2cent

They were all two or three THOUSAND miles away...Thats why I didnt test them in person.

[60Strat]

Originally posted by BluejazzMalmsteen


They were all two or three THOUSAND miles away...Thats why I didnt test them in person.

Yes, that`s right, US is definitely something different than Germany. Ways are much longer there and you can`t travel thousands of miles to play a guitar.

On the other hand my experience with dealers describing a guitar is really bad. Not because the dealers were idiots, just because everyone sees a guitar different.
Two years ago my dream was a PRS Cu22 in dark cherry. My dealer phoned me several times and described me different Cu22s and it was always dissappointing when I made the trip and played and saw the guitars.
Normally you`ve got a pic of your dreamguitar in your mind and it is hard to get exactly that guitar.

I´ve got a nice guitar collection but no real vintage instrument. If I would make the decision to get me a 10000$ vintage Strat I would never (NEVER) order it unseen.

If your financial situation is extremely different to mine, that could be the point:
If 10 Grands were peanuts for me I maybe would order unseen, too.

What I didn`t like about your post was, that you said, that most vitage dealers are idiots. I don`t believe that!
As in every business you`ve got about 25% floppers, same for craftsmanship, doctors, and all fields of activity.
As I said before, dealers are just human, they want to sell instruments.:nelson

[60Strat]

Originally posted by Nelson F


Ying Yang! That's 60 strat not 60 Burst""""

Yep! Very easy to differentiate!
I`m the guy with the murderous English

[qtipburst]

Originally posted by 60Strat


Yep! Very easy to differentiate!
I`m the guy with the murderous English

Sorry 60 Strat for the mistake. I noticed after ,but you know what I meant.

[Dave Paetow]

If I were in the market for a vintage Strat, I would personally check it out. I would go to the dealer even if it is a long ways away (I've done it before) and give the guitar a complete inspection. Pull the neck, pull the guard, look at the pot codes, solder joints, tooling marks, nail holes, routes, body shape, neck tooling holes, neck date, etc...
Some dealers miss stuff, or are not that on top of things. Some are plain sheisters, too. Some dealers are not very forthcoming with information. I've pointed out wrong stuff, then they come back with 'yea, I forgot to tell you about that'.

It's a buyer beware market out there.

[BluejazzMalmsteen]

Originally posted by Dave Paetow
Pull the neck, pull the guard, look at the pot codes, solder joints, tooling marks, nail holes, routes, body shape, neck tooling holes, neck date, etc...

Is there an exact date as to when those nail holes ceased to be used? I'm finding vague info regarding late '64 early '65 late '65 etc.
Did any holes for any reason exist on the back of the body, as in one pin rout hole near the neckplate?

[Cogs]

Four clamping holes, two on the back & two on the front. Filled before lacquering. Three small nail holes under the PG, one under the jackplate. Unfilled. BTW- I doubt if I would buy ANY vintage guitar w/out seeing & holding it first, unless I knew the person/shop & their rep.

[BluejazzMalmsteen]

Originally posted by 71818
Three small nail holes under the PG, one under the jackplate. .

Right. but this only went to a certan date. I'm trying to find out that date definitively.
Thanks for the info on the filled holes!

[Marcondo]

Just a guess but the nail holes were probably there until CBS bought Fender. They started doing all kinds of different things then like the pickups went from hand wound to machine wound etc.

[Cogs]

If the neck pocket has a bare spot where the painting handle was attached, it probably won't have the nail-holes. If the neck pocket has paint in it, then it probably has the nail holes. If the nail holes have paint in them, it's probably a refin. Sometime between '63-'65 they changed(I think).

[Watto]

www.jacksonsrareguitars.com have some great items.They will answer any questions

Watto

[BluejazzMalmsteen]

The reason this is confusing to me is that I'm trying to analyze a Nov. '64 Strat and the guy at Provide.net says different things on this "nail hole" issue:

Example 1: "Fender maintained this technique of using the nails until the end of 1964. At this point Fender implemented a "drying tree" to hold bodies as they dried. "

Example 2: " There should be three or four nail holes under the pickguard, control plate or bridge plate on every original finish solidbody pre-1965 Fender instrument. NO EXCEPTIONS! "

Example 3: "Fender used this nail technique until about late 1964. "

Example 4: "I should also mention I've seen a rare pre-CBS example without any nail holes. This guitar was a May 1959 Tele Custom. A fairly early example of this model; maybe because of the body binding and the early production this guitar didn't use nails as dry legs? I can't explain it"

Example 5: "About 12/64 the "nail holes" are no longer present under the pickguard. "

Example 6: "If the nail holes are missing or have paint in them, the body was refinished. Fender used this nail technique until about fall of 1964. "

Example 7: "This Strat has a neck date of December 1964, and still has the "nail holes" under the pickguard. The nails holes were pretty much gone by fall of 1964."
WTF

[Marcondo]

What I read from all this info is a 64 should have nail holes but ones made from Oct-Dec might not have them.

If there is any question at all look elsewhere. Lots more real 64's out there if you really want one.

[BluejazzMalmsteen]

That's sort of what I make of it too. It just seems odd that it could possibly vary over that length of period. As in....changing back and forth--nails--no nails-nails-no nails
Is it possible that the neck could be made in September, the SN plate in November, and the body in January? That's not an abnormal spread is it? ( I know it's not currently, I own a couple of examples of widespread parts assembly)

[Cogs]

.

Is it possible that the neck could be made in September, the SN plate in November, and the body in January? That's not an abnormal spread is it?

Yes, it's possible.
Stop over analyzing. Ever notice that the first four letters of the word spell "anal"?:lol2
These guitars were made by humans in a factory that was constantly trying to streamline production. SDo, sometime in the fall of 1964 somebody said, "I think it would be quicker & easier to put handles on the bodies when we paint them. And it'll save space, too." Someone else said, "Let's try it & see how it goes." There will ALWAYS be some overlapping when a large manufacturer changes a procedure & they test it out to see how it works.
Post pics of this guitar if you have it, & we'll all take a look & see what we can come up with.

[Cogs]

Originally posted by Watto
www.jacksonsrareguitars.com have some great items.They will answer any questions

:nay :LC :% :dead :sean :edr :hurl :lol2
STRATOCASTER '60 CLOSET CLASSIC CUSTOM SHOP 2002 SUNBURST SECONDHAND...$3998
STRATOCASTER 1964 L OLYMPIC WHITE REFIN...$7728
STRATOCASTER 1965 SUNBURST...$13104!!!
STRATOCASTER 1966 FIREMIST GOLD...$15792
STRATOCASTER 1964 L OLYMPIC WHITE...$20160!!!
STRATOCASTER 1957 MARY KAY[sic] BLONDE...$43680!!!

[blustrat95]

Wow are those prices ridiculous. I mean, I don't claim to be some suami guru dali llama expert here, but for the price of their 65 sunburst Strat I could've bought two 1962 (with replaced switch and pots) Strats all of two years ago -- OK DR Evil, why don't you just ask for a million bazillion dollars.

[Watto]

Originally posted by 71818
:nay :LC :% :dead :sean :edr :hurl :lol2
STRATOCASTER '60 CLOSET CLASSIC CUSTOM SHOP 2002 SUNBURST SECONDHAND...$3998
STRATOCASTER 1964 L OLYMPIC WHITE REFIN...$7728
STRATOCASTER 1965 SUNBURST...$13104!!!
STRATOCASTER 1966 FIREMIST GOLD...$15792
STRATOCASTER 1964 L OLYMPIC WHITE...$20160!!!
STRATOCASTER 1957 MARY KAY[sic] BLONDE...$43680!!!

I never said they were cheap,But here in Australia no American Fenders new or old are.If you think these are expensive check out his prices for Gibson Historics.WTF
This is the main reason I now collect Japanese Fenders and Tokais.

Watto

[Old Dog New Trix]

It's great to see so man guys on top of things these days. I have not bought a vintage guitar for a while now.I am glad we have a few already. It sure sounds like a crap shoot trying to find a good one these days. Seems all the really nice examples go into the dealers private collection or someone on a waiting list gets a phone call or they end up getting traded on the first day of a show amongst dealers.
I have always make a point of studying the inspection marks and pencil and ink writings, rubber stamps on the neck pocket of the mid sixties guitars, etc....a lot of the fakes and refins miss that stuff. Black lighting a finish only works for a while when the finish ages it does not work.
Most if not all fake Headstock decals don't pass off. Pick ups are another story, that is where they have it nailed down, lot of pickups out there that are fake.Really hard to tell.Some pretty good "artists" out there that can replicate and age plastic and hardware these days too.You can pull a lot of old wire and certain electronics out of old radio and amplifiers and use them too.
There are more custom color guitars out there now then were made.
I would most certainly fly, drive etc... to any place to check out a guitar if I were looking for a highly collectable or museum quality instrument.We are talking a lot of $$$$$$ already.
Lets hear about some more horror stories on misrepresented guitars ?
There are some dealers out there that have gotten guitars
they didn't know were fixed up !!! Some really talented 'artists" out there.Be careful.You can't ALWAYS blame the dealer ?

[BluejazzMalmsteen]

Originally posted by Watto
www.jacksonsrareguitars.com have some great items.They will answer any questions

Watto

I'm not sure why this was posted.

[blustrat95]

I didn't realize those prices were in Australian $. They make more sense now. They aren't amazing prices, but how many vintage guitars posted on the internet have amazing prices anyway? If a vintage guitar is priced low, a buyer will think it has issues. If it is reasonable, it probably has something to hide, and if it is too high, well then it's just outrageous.
Looks like things are tough all over.:ax

[Cogs]

Those prices I posted up above are U.S. DOLLARS. And yes, they are outrageous.

[Watto]

Originally posted by BluejazzMalmsteen
Over the past year I've bought 3 vintage guitars and had to send them right back to the respective dealers because of undisclosed or misrepresented info on problems with them.
And...whenever I talk to MOST dealers about vintage instruments, they flat out lie...or...refuse to give details that Im asking about regarding the quality of parts of the guitar....especially when it comes to questions about the neck!!
such as ..."is there a flip at the end of the neck?....does each note on each string play clearly above the 12th fret?" They grab the guitar play some chords and say.."sounds okay to me." Idiots!!
Im including so called "vintage only" dealers in this as well.
They tend to be VAGUE when I ask just general questions. I basically have to ask 20, or so, extemely specific questions...and when I hit the right one...then..pandoras box finally opens and I start to get the scoop that maybe its just another POS that Im inquiring about. I find the entire process time consuming and frustrating and expensive.

Jacksons may be outrageously expensive and half way across the world,but you won't come across any of these problems if you inquire about their guitars.It was an example that not ALL vintage dealers are like the ones you were complaining about.

That is why I posted their site.

[Watto]

Originally posted by BluejazzMalmsteen
I'm not sure why this was posted.

See Above

[Cogs]

Originally posted by Watto
Jacksons may be outrageously expensive and half way across the world,but you won't come across any of these problems if you inquire about their guitars.It was an example that not ALL vintage dealers are like the ones you were complaining about.

That is why I posted their site.

Yes, their guitars are priced through the roof because they're the way they aught to be- like the '64 REFIN for $8K!!!:dead

[blustrat95]

Those prices I posted up above are U.S. DOLLARS. And yes, they are outrageous.

D'oh! Yes they are outrageous, even if they have purity of essence and bodily fluids and have never been exposed to flouridized water.
For God's sake Mandrake....

[Cogs]

"I don't avoid Jacksons Rare Guitars, Mandrake... but I do deny them my $$."

[Lurks]

The jingle goes something like..''you pay twice the price at ..J A C K S O N S ''

These kinds of places are living on borrowed time in an internet savy world .

Take JRG's prices on used Vibrokings..$3695 US. Fender Australia lists new VK's at $4225 US. Get on the net you score a VK new from US, for say $1800 US, add another $1000 US for fedex and taxes etc..$2800 landed at your door, probably faster than you can get it from the locals..there is no need to get ripped off any more...