Have A Good DAW

Partly inspired by what I hear in The JamZone and wanting to partake in the fun; after years of knowing I want a home studio; and after three years of start -STOP-loooong.... silence.... -start -CRASH -loooooong... silence.... repeat... FRUSTRATION trying to make Sonar 3 work on my PC, I am putting together something very nice, I think. I've never built a computer and I'm confident I can do it with help and support. I've decided I want a digital audio workstation (DAW, for those who don't know, like me a very short time ago) dedicated only to music recording. I've gathered info here and elsewhere, negotiated a rough budget, and have tentatively decided on this:

• Sonar 5 Producer
• Asus M2N-SLI Deluxe socket AM2 motherboard
• AMD Athlon 64 duel core 4200+ AM2 CPU
• CORSAIR XMS2 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM 675 (PC2 5400) memory
• Seagate Barracuda 80GB 7200 RPM 2MB Cache IDE Ultra ATA100 Hard Drive
• Seagate (Perpendicular Recording Technology) 320GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
• Emu 1820M 24-Bit/192kHz Interface with 2 Preamps
• Leadtek PX6600TD-256 Geforce 6600 256MB 128-bit DDR PCI Express x16 Video Card
• SAMSUNG 2M Cache ATA/ATAPI DVD Burner With LightScribe
• Antec TRUEPOWERII TPII-550 ATX12V 550W Power Supply
• COOLER MASTER Centurion 5 ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
• Windows xp home w/sp2
• Yorkville YSM1 powered monitors (already owned)
• Shure SM58 mics, 2 already owned, will look into condensor mics

It's relatively powerful and expensive given my limited recording experience, and I'm fairly decided it's what I'm gonna do. I have a number of songs I've been sitting on for too long, much more partially written material, and a head daily full of rhythms, bass lines, chord structures, and melodies that just drift into unrealized creative artistic intention. It's time.

So, does anyone have any feedback, info, or wisdom to dispense on this project? Thanks for any offerings.

I think fezz is gonna be your one-stop shop for Windows DAW audio wisdom. He runs ACID Pro as his DAW. I'd love to help, but I'm a Mac user and have zero knowledge of the PC side.

I can tell you that Maxtor SATA drives have been very widely regarded by the audio community. I'm running two of them in my G5 and they have been completely trouble free. I'm sure the Seagates are fine, too.

Don't know Corsair, but I can also tell you that I wouldn't rely on anything but Crucial sticks in my DAW. I've heard too many stories, and they all ended with, "and then I called Crucial and everything was OK."

If you're going to record vocals and/or acoustic guitar, a good large-diaphragm condenser mic will be your favorite piece of gear.

Sounds pretty sweet. I think I would go with both Drives as SATA. I would consider XP-Pro also (I think the differences between home and pro mostly have to do with networking support but since you are trying to build your ultimate DAW I would pony up the extra couple of bills for XP pro.)

Make sure you keep those drives cool. 7200rpm drives like to fail if they get too warm. If you can, get a LCD monitor also so you don't have to worry about interference from a CRT.

LCD monitor changed my life. When I got a used 20" Apple Cinema Display, I didn't have to turn to magnetic north or south any more, to calm the hum. It was amazing how different it was.

I, like Jim, am a total Mac guy and won't be able to help you with the hardware. I use generic hard drives but I'm thinking about getting a 10,000 RPM drive to use as storage for my audio and video.

Thanks Jim, bzimm, and Hookerman. One change I've decided on is I'm gonna go with an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 sound card used with a currently-owned Yamaha MG10 mixer. Much cheaper--about $400--than the Emu 1820M, leaving me money to buy other stuff, like...

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Originally Posted by Gravity Jim

If you're going to record vocals and/or acoustic guitar, a good large-diaphragm condenser mic will be your favorite piece of gear.

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What could you suggest, Jim? I've eyed the Studio Projects B1 Large Diaphragm Condenser Microphone as a good budget mic.

I've done heavy DAW stuff on both platforms. I'm a Mac guy now, but I've done the PC thing extensively. The system you're considering is great looking on paper but most of it is entirely unnecessary to make great audio. Looks to me like you went to DUC or another high-end audio or video forum and copied the specs from the latest/greatest posts.

Great audio on a PC platform can be had with an effecient hard drive, goodly sum of RAM, and a good processor. Increments in any of those areas help, but going to the tip-top of the market eventually begins to waste your money.

Any DAW company (as well as I) will recommend an external drive for audio files seperate from your OS drive. (Note that Fezz doesn't do this on his, so again, not necessary, but I highly recommend it if you ever intend to record more four or more tracks at once). I also find that the more RAM you have, the better. Aside from that, the latest liquid-hydrogen super cooled neon-lit shock-mounted whatsit will be worth about zero in the overall picture.

Now... here's the key. If you have that awesome system and also decide to play Quake 4 on it and surf the net, you may as well go to a garage sale and get a Pentium II machine. The more stuff you put on the system that doesn't have to do with the DAW, the more problems you'll eventually have.

Further, all the stuff you read about dual boot systems is crap in my opinion. It's another great-on-paper idea about how to keep your Internet/Email/Gaming/Word Pro system entirely separate from your audio system, but it is generally fraught with problems as time goes on and you need to use the Internet to occasionally update your DAW software or download plugins, etc.

That's my 2 cents, worth about exactly that.

wellstrung, that B1 is a good mic. So are the similarly priced mics from AKG, Audio Technica and Shure (my fave recent condensers).

Thanks for the feedback, pc.

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Originally Posted by pc

I've done heavy DAW stuff on both platforms. I'm a Mac guy now, but I've done the PC thing extensively. The system you're considering is great looking on paper but most of it is entirely unnecessary to make great audio. Looks to me like you went to DUC or another high-end audio or video forum and copied the specs from the latest/greatest posts.

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Actually, I went here: http://www.tweakheadz.com/, here http://studio-central.com/phpbb/index.php , here http://forum.cakewalk.com/ mostly, and to a bunch of online retailers to compare prices. I read and researched, asked some questions, and narrowed it to this. I got a really good deal (I believe) on Sonar 5 at http://www.digitraxx.com/cw_sonarpro.html, and I am shopping/price comparing wisely for components, weighing cost vs performance. I have done a fair bit of homework, and I have some more to do.

I am interested specifically in what you consider entirely unecessary as I sincerely don't know.

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Originally Posted by pc

Great audio on a PC platform can be had with an effecient hard drive, goodly sum of RAM, and a good processor. Increments in any of those areas help, but going to the tip-top of the market eventually begins to waste your money.

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I agree completely. None of what I've listed is tip-top. Hard drives are highly rated and low/middling cost. The 2GBs of Corsair memory (not the "value" stuff) is highly reviewed and relatively inexpensive. The AMD cpu just fell 40% in price a couple weeks ago and by many accounts what I got is among the best for the money. The motherboard is also highly regarded and is far from tip-top of the line. I acknowledge and respect your opinion, and it does lead me to do more considering.

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Originally Posted by pc

Any DAW company (as well as I) will recommend an external drive for audio files seperate from your OS drive. (Note that Fezz doesn't do this on his, so again, not necessary, but I highly recommend it if you ever intend to record more four or more tracks at once). I also find that the more RAM you have, the better. Aside from that, the latest liquid-hydrogen super cooled neon-lit shock-mounted whatsit will be worth about zero in the overall picture.

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When you say "external" do you mean literally external or do you mean just separate from the OS drive? In my list I have 80GB HD for OS and programs, 320GB for audio files. Do you consider 2GBs of memory adequate? I have no l-hscn-ls-m whatsits listed. The video card is way on the low end, and gets excellent reviews, and the DVD burner gets excellent reviews and is downright cheap.

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Originally Posted by pc

Now... here's the key. If you have that awesome system and also decide to play Quake 4 on it and surf the net, you may as well go to a garage sale and get a Pentium II machine. The more stuff you put on the system that doesn't have to do with the DAW, the more problems you'll eventually have.

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This will be exclusively a DAW. I'll have my current separate machine for Office work, accessing TFF and other net stops, and all other 'puter stuff.

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Originally Posted by pc

Further, all the stuff you read about dual boot systems is crap in my opinion. It's another great-on-paper idea about how to keep your Internet/Email/Gaming/Word Pro system entirely separate from your audio system, but it is generally fraught with problems as time goes on and you need to use the Internet to occasionally update your DAW software or download plugins, etc.

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I'll have firewalls and virus protection and will access the net only for updates and plugin downloads.

Everything, including an LCD monitor (Acer 19"), OS, Sonar 5, keyboard, mouse, would be less than $1600. Overkill? Yup. You and others may judge me a fool if I do this. But my mind is made up to have a separate DAW computer; It is not made up, however, on exactly what it will be (that's why this post). I judge that what I've listed has an excellent cost/performance ratio, AND I'm interested in spending less money, so if you or anyone else has specific recommendations on how to do this, please let me know.

I have so badly wanted a usable, functional studio for so long, and I have been soooOOOOO FRUSTRATED trying to use Sonar 3 thru my current computer. I have decent monitors, a MIDI keyboard, a mixer, mics, drum machine, bass, guitars, amps already, and sometimes I am CRAZY with creative drive to record my musical ideas. I have to do something like this.

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Originally Posted by pc

That's my 2 cents, worth about exactly that.

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I am richer for it. :spin:

I've been building pcs for a few years. I usually find that just a few steps down from SOA saves a lot of dough. Whatever you do, do not buy a cheap PS, the Antek is great. After chasing down some flaky problems on my current machine finally contacted tech support for my motherboard manufacturer, the tech guy said to get an Antek truepower - now the machine is rock steady. I like AMD cpus too.

I can't help you with PC hardware -- it seems like you're on the right track with all you rresearch and determination to create a great system for the investment.

But if it 'twere me, I'd take GJ's advice and get a great mike or two. And if you've got the real estate, I'd really get started right with two widescreen monitors. That's the one thing I long for in my own Mac rig -- one for the mixer, one for viewing the track waveforms with minimal interferance.

Thanks JAM. Again, I do believe what I've listed is steps down from SOA. And maybe I need to back another step or two. Yes, all I've gathered tells me, don't compromise on PSU. The one I'm looking at is $80. Not cheap, but far from tops.

Clayville, Yup. A condenser mic (or two) will be soon in my future. Regarding vid monitor, one will have to do for now, but that's an easy add-on any time regardless of the system. I've already made sure to consider only multi-display video cards.

Thanks GJ for the answer to the mic question.

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Originally Posted by wellstrung

...that's an easy add-on any time ...

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That's what I thought... a year and a half ago when I bought my rig! :comp26:

You sound like you're making all the right considerations. When I said "external" drive--you're right on, I just mean second drive. Internal and SCSI is fine. In my experience, not SATA though. Bad news.

I would not consider using an AMD for a PC-based system, based on the laundry lists of bizarre incompatibilities that always seem to crop up. I'm DEFINITELY no Intel salesman, don't get me wrong, and I would buy or recommend AMD to anyone for most PC uses. For audio-only though, I'd think twice and thrice about it. DUC and the Sonar boards were cluttered with AMD-specific problems last year, despite it constantly getting the unofficial nod from all the supposed audio gurus. There is no doubt AMD has the most bang-for-buck (again I say) "on paper," but again, the sheer number of problems these same Gurus then had to try to suss out at the boards was staggering.

IMO, even with an Intel chip, if you spend more than $1000 you may be going beyond what's necessary for an awesome DAW.

My "State of the art" PC DAW in the late 90s and early 2000s was a Win98 system that cost $600 (no monitor included in that). It still runs flawlessly to this day, despite my later issues with XP machines.

And yes, 2 Gig of RAM is plenty. 1 to 1.5 Gig of high-speed RAM would be fine, but if you plan to use a lot of software instruments/samplers, more is always better, so 2 Gig should be awesome. JAM is right about not skimping on the PS too.

pc,

I would guess the compatibility problems have to do with the chipset used, rather than the cpu itself. Because of the 'bargain' element to some of the AMD MB chipsets, I'm not surprised there are some issues.

'Zactly. I know he didn't mention ProTools, but it and the Sonar pro and semi-pro stuff seem to have no end of problems with over half the AMDs packages marketed, definitely including the more expensive AMDs. Can't skimp on the MoBo either, but it seems like there was a lot more room for diversity of MoBo choice, whereas so many of the AMD chipsets were/are problematic for higher-end audio/video software.

There was a sticky-thread at DUC (probably still there) with the ultimate PC DAW, which included a very specific AMD CPU, which the poster (who was well known there as an extremely helpful and brilliant ProTools/PC guru) had put through all the paces and found it to be 100% compatible. Then you just watched the posts collect with all the folks who bought "the next model down" of the AMD that was 100% imcompatible. Then the posts collected with all the people who tried all the other similar AMDs in their self-builds, half of which worked for this user but not for that user.

Then... insult to injury... the next release of ProTools didn't work with the original recommended AMD. And so on. The Intel proponents continually flamed the AMD proponents because Intel stuff was always so much more compatible (though of course still susceptible to the literally hundreds of software conflicts, including Windows XP SP2, which essentially shut down all ProTools users for months back then...)

I hate to even say it, but I haven't been back to DUC since I got the Mac. Haven't needed it.

:couch

The bottom line - make sure the exact CPU, MoBo, Memory etc is going to work with the software and hardware you'll be using. But since AMD seems to be gaining on Intel, maybe there's more incentive for the software and hardware companies to provide better support for these platforms.

@wellstrung,

If youve never built a machine from scratch, some companies will install the CPU and memory on the MB and test it. It can be a little tricky mounting the cooling fan on the CPU.

Truly, with all respect, what's a guy to do?

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Originally Posted by pc

...In my experience, not SATA though. Bad news...

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I read: SATA good. SATA bad. Back and forth. Yikes. I don't know.

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Originally Posted by pc

...I would not consider using an AMD for a PC-based system, based on the laundry lists of bizarre incompatibilities that always seem to crop up.

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Good! Bad! AMD! Intel! The debate rages...

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Originally Posted by pc

IMO, even with an Intel chip, if you spend more than $1000 you may be going beyond what's necessary for an awesome DAW.

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What are you including in this $1000? Monitor? software? OS?

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Originally Posted by fezz parka

Windoz boxes are so unpredictable that I rarely upgrade, once they work, I don't want to touch them.

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Hence my desire to research and invest NOW what I need to create a stable workstation with a long shelf life. And I know, no assurances.

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Originally Posted by fezz parka

Use as much RAM as you can,

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2GB should be good for now with 32-bit Windows xp, which I read does not handle more than 2.5GB RAM without potential problems.

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Originally Posted by fezz parka

make sure your graphics card doesn't interfere with your audio (I like the Matrox cards, anything using nvidia chips will eff you up) and get a good interface (the Emu is just a fancy Soundblaster) like a MOTU or Echo card. 24 bit is great, but anything above 48khz is a waste of hard drive space for the home user. Your clock source is the most important thing.

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Fezz, do you have a sound and graphics cards combo you might recommend. The combo I'm considering run together about $150. Budget stuff for sure.

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Originally Posted by fezz parka

Most important: your performance and the material you record. Garbage in is garbage out, no matter if it's a cassette machine or ProTools HD.:D

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ACKNOWLEDGED! The issue all along for years: [Expressed with dramatic, passionate flair:] "I'm an artist, not a technician, dammit!" Well, I'm looking at this project as an instrument on which I can create my music. For years,
A) I've been overwhelmed by and afraid of the technology.
B) I've said to myself, I can't afford this.
C) I try to work with the system I have and it is so much trouble, I can't focus on the music, only the troubleshooting to try to make it work.

Thanks again, everyone, for the help. This is going to happen, and there are SO MANY VARIABLES, it is insane!

I'm going to continue to gather info before I make the plunge. My left hand's out of commission anyway with a broken finger, so I have time.

If you can verify that the EXACT system you want will work, personally I'd go for it. Dont let all the variables scare you so much it deters you from getting a good system.

Just my .02

Yes. I still think you're already ahead of the major problem-causers in that you intend it to be a DAW-only rig.

My $1000 figure does not include software or any external gear (good studio monitors, preamps, mics, etc.), but was meant to include an LCD panel (since I mentioned my $600 system did not include a video monitor, but naturally included keyboard, mouse, etc.). A good sound/interface card was also included in that amount.

As for SATA, I still say bad. If your plan is to do things like record one track of guitar (voice, etc.) at a time over existing tracks, it won't matter. If you ever intend to record four or more tracks of audio at a time, SATA will kill you.

I already said I am not an Intel fan and that I will recommend AMD any day of the week for PCs. However, you must remember that the high-end audio software is coded and Beta'd on Intel machines, never on AMD machines. You're playing the odds any time you step outside the known.

JAM wrote above to verify the exact system you propose will work, and I agree with that. I just add to verify it with the manufacturer of your proposed software (FAQs on any DAW site: "We recommend..."), not with anybody at a discussion forum for DAW software (or guitars). Which, yes, even includes me.

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Originally Posted by JAM

@wellstrung,

If youve never built a machine from scratch, some companies will install the CPU and memory on the MB and test it. It can be a little tricky mounting the cooling fan on the CPU.

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I have an experienced IT friend who's offered to spend some time during the construction. He's built many (tho none for audio).

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Originally Posted by JAM

If you can verify that the EXACT system you want will work, personally I'd go for it.

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I'm getting close...

All good sound advice from everyone. I'll be doing some more info gathering today and will order probably this evening. Thanks again Jim, bzimm, Hookerman, pc, JAM, clayville, and Fezz. I just want to be smart and deliberate about all this and make a good purchase, and I'm excited like a kid who can't wait.

You're doing it smart and I bet you'll have a blast once it's done. :sun

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Originally Posted by pc

You're doing it smart and I bet you'll have a blast once it's done. :sun

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Yeah, I think so too.

BTW, I had clients with a computer consulting company, I'd watch them build a system a couple of times, and once they upgraded the MoBo on my office system. They moved out of the area and I figured it wouldnt be too hard to do myself. The first system had the CPU, fan and memory installed, but I've done a couple since from scratch. It's really not that difficult. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Gravity Jim

I can tell you that Maxtor SATA drives have been very widely regarded by the audio community. I'm running two of them in my G5 and they have been completely trouble free. I'm sure the Seagates are fine, too.

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I just ran across and verified the info that Maxor was gobbled up by Seagate last year. Nothing useful here, but there it is.