http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090412/D97H7N0O0.html
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Sweet!
We caught them and we executed them under "rule .303".
(nothin' at all ambiguous about musket fire)
:appl: :appl: :appl:
I'm happy the capitan is safe and I support the manner in which the situation was resolved. However, without a plan of action to prevent future attacks on US flagged vessels, the way this incident was handled will not bode well for those involved in the next incident. And the WILL be a next incident.
I've been watching the pirate activity for a while, and am disappointed with nearly every diplomat's reaction, regardless of what country they are from. The situation is not nearly as hopeless as they proclaim, citing maritime law and a nearly non-existant government in Somalia. Diplomatic solutions only need to be enacted once the hostages are on land in a foreign country. While on the open sea, at least in the case of the USA, the military's primary duty is to protect American interests and keep the shipping lanes free.
True, the area of activity is huge and the US doesn't have nearly enough ships to ensure safety for every ship, but that sort of solutuion would only be effective if there is no pirate activity. In my opinion, once pirate activity began the Navy should have begun assiging an armed squad of men to each US vessel that did not specifically turn down the protection. If attacked, the orders should have been to use deadly force without additional authorization. Then the US diplomats should make very public announcements that US flagged vessels are armed and will defend against any pirate activity.
Yes, put a contingent of U. S. Marines on every ship that sails under the Stars & Stripes. That would put a halt to a lot of this lawlessness.
I think if, once or twice a year, a band of pirates attacked an innocent-looking freighter only to find it was a decoy crewed by heavily armed special forces (like the SEALs that rescued the captain today), piracy might start looking like too big a gamble.
SEAL snipers from 25 meters.:confused:
http://images.outdoorinteractive.net/mgen/272608_oi.jpg
I don't think any of the thieves should have made out alive..
I was glad of the outcome,but it was depressing watching the press conference afterwards.None of the press seemed elated or thankful,it was almost like the Grand Inquisition,questioning the moves and motives.Some of our "news" people seem very un-American.
I think that the shipping industry should supply their own security from corporations that specialize in this. More jobs!
Yeah, it might keep Blackwater (or whatever they call themselves today) out of trouble.
Quote:
Originally Posted by refin
Ya think???
Good job, way to go Navy!
BW
A big thumbs up to those involved in the rescue. Well done! But the game has now changed.
I see at least four things that could be done to largely eliminate piracy.
1) (already mentioned) Decoy ships, heavily armed flying various flags and sporting various markings.
2) Convoys. It worked in WWII against a much better equipped enemy. Ships go in and out in groups covered by naval vessels.
3) Blockade any port the pirates use. This may cause legitimate cargo to be stopped. Too bad, if the citizens want goods coming into those ports, they'll kill the pirates themselves.
4) Assassination teams. Send ex-CIA, KGB, etc into Somalia to take out any pirates they can find. There's no real government there anyway, this should work pretty well.
Anyone else got a suggestion?........Bill
"Anyone else got a suggestion?........Bill"
one Ma Deuce on every civilian maritime vessel
There seems to be a reluctance to arm civilian vessels otherwise I would have included that one........BillQuote:
Originally Posted by doc540
I don't think we'll be sending special forces into Somalia. We sent Rangers and SFOD-Delta in there, and it was a nightmare nobody's going to forget soon. Blockading the ports the pirates use is problematic because they may not use established ports, and stopping whatever legitimate shipping there is in Somalia would only make things worse there. There are also international, diplomatic issues with blockading another country's port or carrying out military operations there.
Seems like there's a lot we could be doing offshore, though, to make piracy so dangerous to the pirates that they (mostly) give it up.
If you wanted to go in country, it would have to be covert.Quote:
Originally Posted by elicross
I don't think there are any diplomatic issues since there's no real government. If there was a government, the UN could insist on them stopping the pirates under penalty of a complete blockade of the country. The place is lawless and needs to be treated that way.
I think it's cheaper and less dangerous to put up a blockade instead of trying to protect numerous individual ships over a very large area. No ship penetrates the blockade without a search and a legitimate reason for crossing the line. Any outbound vessel refusing to stop or trying to avoid a search would be sunk -- no questions asked.........Bill
OK, then, one Barrett .50 and a set of earplugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilliamrose
The problem isn't so much Somalia itself as Somalia's neighbors that might frown on U.S. military action there, especially given the current climate in the world in general and largely Muslim nations in particular. Any action we took inside Somalia would have to be covert, and we'd have to hope it stayed very covert.Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilliamrose
And even putting aside the political angle -- and the question of whether or not it's right to hunt and kill a criminal without trial -- would a few assassinations really stop piracy? I don't know. If U.S. law had allowed the authorities to assassinate Al Capone, would that have stopped bootlegging? I think whatever action we (the U.S. or the U.N.) take, it needs to send the message that *anyone* engaging in piracy at any time stands a good chance of meeting the fate Capt. Phillips' three captors met.
Assigning a military squad to each US flagged vessel to repel borders at sea would not violate anyone's rights, nor create any diplomatic tensions. US military security onboard US flagged vessels at sea should be perfectly acceptable.
Now, if a group of pirates attempted to board that US flagged vessel, and were killed or wounded in the process, well then perhaps they should have paid attention to whose house they were trying to rob. It wouldn't take very many attempts before the pirates would avoid at all costs any US flagged vessel, and prey upon vessels of other nations. Likewise, it wouldn't take very long before other nations started doing the same. In a very short timeframe, piracy would become a thing of the past.
One problem that could arise as a result might be that pirates could begin arming themselves better, or making decisions to attack US vessels instead of simply trying to capture them. Once fired upon, the US could declare a 'war' because of the hostile acts and begin 'hunting' the pirate mother ships as well as take other steps such as blockading ports and obtaining UN backing. A quick look at Google Earth indicates there aren't very many ports in Somalia to begin with, so it wouldn't require a tremendous amount of resources.
Great news. Special Ops are always a crap shoot. Glad to see they pulled this one off and even happier to see O'bama had the b*lls to order it. My fave first cousin was one of the contingent that was supposed to save the Iran hostages way back when. We all know the sacrifices that are made.
That requires that the criminal act occur first, I'd rather prevent it if possible. A blockade would do that. So would convoys.Quote:
Originally Posted by elicross
Ideally you'd like to limit casualties to the criminals and I doubt that will be the case if this continues to happen. They'll kill a few crew members, destroy a few ships -- just to remind the world they have the upper hand......Bill
Well, presumably a criminal act has occurred as soon as somebody tries to board a ship without permission. If they fire on the ship, or even near it, that's certainly a criminal act. If we had a well-armed, well-trained security force on a ship, I'd think they could kill the pirates or send 'em packing before they got a chance to even try to board. And in international waters, I think they'd be justified in pursuing and capturing any pirates who turned and ran after being surprised by a military force on what they thought was an unarmed freighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilliamrose
Maybe I just like the idea of that surprise. :D
The point needs to be made, they do NOT have the upper hand unless we sit back and allow them to have the upper hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilliamrose
It's not as easy to sink an ocean going vessel as one might think. These pirates certainly do not have the resources required to do so at sea. The open sea is not a place you can set a home-made roadside bomb and wait for a convoy to pass, nor can they strap a bomb to their chest and walk into an unsuspecting marketplace. With a diligent watch established onboard the vessel and radar assets to paint a picture of what is nearby or approaching, the element of surprise is pretty much eliminated. The military has the trained disciplined individuals to pull this off, while these practices are often ignored in the commercial fleets.
Also, if the U.S. does not take immediate proactive steps to protect our commerce, the commercial companies will. Then you could potentially have untrained armed individuals riding these vessels anxiously hoping someone trys to attack them so they can get all trigger happy. That could leave a much bigger mess to clean up.
These companies make trillions let them pay for their own security.
I seriously doubt that they make trillions.Quote:
Originally Posted by thegeezer
On the other hand, anti-piracy is specifically what the U.S. Navy was initially established for.
I was thinking they could set it on fire, no need to sink it. A tanker would make an especially nice display.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesotech
Anyway, I agree WE need to do something very forceful and do it quickly or it will confirm what they already feel (that they have us by the short ones)...........Bill
The piracy in those waters has been going on for years. Funny we've just woken up to it.
I have wondered about the use of the new drone aircraft in a situation like this. I don't know the range -- but I imagine they should be able to take off from a carrier.
That coastline presents a LOT of open water, but given our spy satellites etc, I dunno, seems like a doable thing, finding these bastards.
I bet anything there's a team in the Pentagon already up to Chapter 37 of this playbook.
That's ALL we need: A buncha seafaring PinkertonsQuote:
Originally Posted by thegeezer
It's interesting that the piracy stuff is getting a lot of press since Bechtel and Xe maybe looking for jobs for their mercs soon.
The piracy stuff has been getting a lot of press for a few years now. Unfortunately, until they targeted a US ship most American's didn't pay any attention.
I personally had begun to believe that the pirates were well aware of the U.S.A.'s position on piracy and steered clear of those ships on purpose. It seems that these particular pirates were rather young, and perhaps were not aware of their pending fate, or foolishly thought they could beat the odds.
Yep. When this incident first made the news, I thought "Wow, these pirates are either incredibly desperate or incredibly stupid." I was thinking if this was a movie, there'd be a Boss Pirate back at Pirate HQ screaming at his dumbass minions: "You attacked an AMERICAN ship?! And kidnapped an AMERICAN captain?!"
And then, of course, he'd suddenly shoot one of 'em dead to make him an example for all the other pirates.
'Cause really, even if this whole thing had somehow gone well for the pirates, it would still be extremely bad news for the pirate biz in the long run.
they took 3 more last night... learning disabilities?
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090414/D97I51IO1.html
I hear our congress is planing on wasting more of our tax money by having hearings on the matter in stead of just leaving it up to the military, I think they plan on calling Jonny Depp as the first whitness so they can get some real insight into the matter!!
Well that is what CBS reported and private security with Navy oversight is a very good idea, you all seem to think the one incident in Iraq is the way private security is, just a bunch of cowboys shooting at everybody, they aren't that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by thegeezer
They had some military staffers on NPR and said that the Navy is not in the business of interdicting pirates on the high seas even though commerce protection was their original reason for existing.
Someone also said the Somali's are pissed because they're tired of toxic waste from other countries being dumped off their coast and fishing trawlers wiping out their fishing stocks. Of course you won't hear those complaints on the nightly news.
There are always at least two sides to every conflict if toxic waste is the problem they sure haven't let anybody know and they have had plenty of opportunities.
They have no government. Who are they going to let know? Reports are that chemical waste and all that "safe" spent nuclear fuel has been dumped there by European nations and China since the government in Somalia collapsed. It's ruined their fishing industry and they have no one to turn to.
Interesting reading
Interesting reading two
Apparently the pirates were not deterred---
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090414/ap_on_re_af/piracy
They haven't hijacked another U.S. ship yet. Maybe they only learned not to mess with us crazy cowboys.
...aaaaand another thread goes political for no apparent reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25
Somehow this piracy thing must be America's fault, but I just can't see it yet.
You know your right about it being our fault, it must be something like the way we are always the first ones to get there and help out when other nations have natural disasters, or maybe its the way we top other nations spending in trying to stop the spread of AIDS by a money factor of 2 to 1!
Wait...who's suggested piracy in the Gulf of Aden is America's fault? I musta missed that.
They've had no functioning government since 1991, hence no 1st Amendment press freedoms. Sorry you didn't read about toxic waste dumping in Somalia on Fox News. You might have to read something outside the bubble of what passes for news in the US.
http://www1.american.edu/TED/somalia.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle418665.ece
http://www.benadir-watch.com/2005%20...ping_waste.pdf
I saw a computer simulation on the news that suggests it might have been a lot trickier than it sounds. It showed the lifeboat rocking back and forth on the waves -- which, when you think about it, it probably did, and the deck of the ship the snipers were on was probably in motion, too. And it explained that the three Navy snipers took out the three pirates with one shot each, all at the same time. If any one of the shooters had missed or been too early or too late, one of the pirates could've realized what was happening and killed Capt. Phillips. 25 meters might be short range for U.S. military snipers, but that rescue still must've taken some serious skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by doc540
I worked for a yachtbuilder for some years, and met a lot of people who were pretty well traveled.
One guy was telling me of a spot...I think around southeast Asia somewhere...where the fishermen will steer right across your bow because they think if they do that the bad luck will jump off their boat onto yours. Apparently some fisherman have been shot at because the yachtsman thought he was about to get robbed.
Let's not forget -there were some Air Force SOC guys there too. Those USAF SOC's are pretty tough hombres. The way this played out was much more along their lines of doing things. And fading into the shadows afterwards is pretty much in keeping with their way of doing business too.
I agree that times change and missions change, but in my copy of the Blue Jacket's manual, it's still written that protecting commerce on the high seas and keeping shipping lanes open is a prime mission of the Navy. The fact that we haven't needed to deal with pirates in over 200 years shouldn't absolve the mission, or disolve the Navy. One of the other missions of the Navy is to act as a deterrant to war (or piracy). Perhaps the fact that we DO have a Navy is what has caused us not to have been bothered by pirates in the past 200 years.
I don't believe we need to be everybodies Navy or attempt to take on the entire pirate problem for the world, but I do believe that we need to take care of our own. If by doing so, it helps solve the pirate problem for others, then great. If it doesn't, at least our vessels and crews will be safe and protected.
The talking heads on TV who advocate private security alternatives are certainly welcome to say so, and any commercial company that wishes to hire their own security should also be allowed to do so. However, that shouldn't give our Government a free shot to take a pass on protecting its citizens.
Jus ma 'pinion
It's there. You just have to read between the lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by elicross
This a problem that needs to be addressed I am not looking for fault but I am looking for potential reasons and solutions, big difference. More unneeded politics interjecting some one is pointing fingers.
geezer, this is a classic case of a politcal solution being in need. The root cause of the problem is the failure of government in Somalia. The pirates are a symptom, not the cause.
If that is the case let's keep an open mind and if we have been part of toxic waste dumping than we should help fix the problem hopefully without invading another country.
I honestly can't tell if you're being ironic or not.... :wah:Quote:
Originally Posted by 71818
It's pretty simple, seek and destroy all the Somalia pirates. I could care less why they want to kill, kidnap and steal.
F-em I say, kill them all. All they understand is violence and it's time somebody put them in their place.
By doing nothing, they are encouraged and emboldened.
I guess they aren't the only ones that only understand violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by muddy
It's the reality of the situation and it will only escalate without decisive action.Quote:
Originally Posted by thegeezer
Your right to a degree, you have to know when diplomicy and reasoning with certain factions is futile. Sad to say but pain or death is all these savages will understand.
It would be like trying to reason with a serial killer...?
These savages are human beings with families and needs just like you. It's amazing what desperation will do to a head of household. The sad thing is WE don't know that much about their group to even negotiate with them. The world corporations need to make restitution where they do wrong. We need to be fair, just and open when dealing with so called savages.Quote:
Originally Posted by muddy
By the way I am a Nam era Vet.