the real truth about mexican pickups

i have played fenders for over 35 years and i swear every day they get more confusing. in my time there was one strat and one tele. pick your color and this was it. now, there are about 50 different fender pickups. what the hell is going on? just the mexican ones include the standard, the 50s, the 60s, the tex-mex, etc. now will someone tell me once and for all what are the differences if any other than the name? and if you can tell me the difference between these and the usa pups. they way i understand it is nothing is actually made in mexico. the parts are usa and assembled there. cheap labor, etc. i want to hear from an expert and not somebody just guessing or giving second hand information. tell me about heneries, inductance, windings, the whole truth and nothing but.

I'm something of an expert regarding pickups, but I'm as confused as you are. What I can tell you is that often there are often only very minor differences between various models. This seems to be more about market penetration than actual offering variety of meritable products. I just dont understand how the ordinary man can make a decision with all the options available.

Seems like you just gotta not wander too far from what you have known and been happy with. If you like the old faithful Strat's and Tele's that only came in one kind but different colours then you are not missing out on anything by avoiding modern so called improved instruments. Many so-called improvements have little or no merit and often even prove to be retrograde steps. For my money there just aint much that's better than the originals, maybe an original or reissue with some noiseless pickups and better nut material.

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Originally Posted by Chris Kinman

I'm something of an expert regarding pickups......

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Understatement of the century!

I bought a fender clone the other day, and the pickups sounded exactly like a MIM standard.. I had to sit back for min cause i couldn't figure it out.
Thats why the US ones have lace sence or noiseless, to give them a more unique sound thats harder to duplicate. But it's not only the picups but the pots change the sound too. I think everything on the US fender is better. But that being siad one of the best deals ever was those California strats.. US body , MIM parts. I love those !

MIM's use cts pots also, fyi.

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Originally Posted by Chris Kinman

I just dont understand how the ordinary man can make a decision with all the options available.

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Ya' walk into your friendly neighborhood guitar shop, plug one in and play it.:wail2
Heneries, inductance, windings, scmindings. Whatever sounds good to a player, is good to that player.
I'm pretty ordinary, and that's what I do. :D

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Originally Posted by NeoFauve

Ya' walk into your friendly neighborhood guitar shop, plug one in and play it.:wail2
Heneries, inductance, windings, scmindings. Whatever sounds good to a player, is good to that player.
I'm pretty ordinary, and that's what I do. :D

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Exactly. Why on earth would anyone buy a new guitar and PLAN to change Pups? If it doesn't do it for you, why get it? The only time I mess with Pups is if I'm doing a project, and then I stay close to home. Texas Specials have a pronounced sound, as do American Series and the Fat 50's. If I can't make the noise I need with one of them, forget it.

Our expert is right on with respect to sticking to a formula that works. I stick to the origional style Strat, the AM 62 reissue, as that what I can afford, and is as close to an origional as can be with respect to tone, and construction. Sure a custom shop would be closer, and more $$$$,, but not enough to make that much of a diff.


CT.

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Originally Posted by telecast

Exactly. Why on earth would anyone buy a new guitar and PLAN to change Pups?

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Because you might have a predispostion to Hamels, Rolphs, Voodoos, Kinmans, etc. which don't come stock in any guitar.:bonk

One of the reasons I bought my 50th Anniversary Strat was because I knew I wouldn't have to change pickups on it. If I went AmSeries, I knew that I would change them eventually.

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Originally Posted by Kap'n

Because you might have a predispostion to Hamels, Rolphs, Voodoos, Kinmans, etc. which don't come stock in any guitar.:bonk

One of the reasons I bought my 50th Anniversary Strat was because I knew I wouldn't have to change pickups on it. If I went AmSeries, I knew that I would change them eventually.

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Ok, thanks for proving my point. If you buy a guitar that sounds good out of the box, you'd never be able to establish a 'predisposition'.

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Originally Posted by telecast

If you buy a guitar that sounds good out of the box, you'd never be able to establish a 'predisposition'.

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It's human nature to tinker and modify. A lot of people don't like the pickups that come stock. If everybody liked them then there wouldn't be any business for

Bill Lawrence
Lawrence Sound Research
OBL
Seymour Duncan
Larry DiMarzio
Chris Kinman
Bartolini
Shadow
Rolph
Hamel
P.J. Marx
T.W. Doyle
GFS
Kent Armstrong
EMG
Lace Actodyne
Lindy Fralin
VooDoo
Joe Barden
Schaller
etc.

Besides, you shouldn't discount a guitar that plays well, and feels good, just because the pickups suck. And there are plenty of sucky pickups out there.

Moreover, a lot of people tinker because that's all they have to do. I'm going to hazard a wild guess that a HUGE part of aftermarket parts sales are couch players. When you sit home and evaluate the guitar all day, you're going to hear things you don't like, real or imagined. 99% of those things would never be discernable in a band situation.

I have never ever changed pickups in a guitar I bought to play. I have changed them in guitars I bought for a project. Once they're in, the chance of me changing them again is slim to none. I have never had anyone come up to me and complain about the way I sound, or suggest I need different pickups. There's a point of diminishing returns with anything, and IMO, you've reached it well before you spend multiple hundreds of dollars for a set of Tele pups.

Discounting a guitar that doesn't sound good is a personal preference, thanks. Changing pickups is no guarantee the guitar will ever sound the way you want.

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Originally Posted by telecast

I have never ever changed pickups in a guitar I bought to play.

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Congratulations. Accept the fact that other people, in fact, do change their pickups, and can be satisfied with the result.

Otherwise, this conversation is pointless.

I took the initial quesion to be about the variety of stock Fender p'ups.

Choosing replacements or p'ups for a project is a whole other deal.
I still lean toward something I've actually heard, hopefully firsthand.

I never said I didn't accept it, I just don't understand it. I don't get why someone would spend $1,000 or more on a guitar knowing full well they would be dropping another $300 on pickups.

I can understand this philosphy though, with a less expensive guitar. Take a MIM for example. A guy spends $369 and wants it to sound a little different (better?), so for $100-125 he drops a set of Fat 50's or Vintage pups in it. Now that does make sense. It stops making sense when the pickup investment reaches 2/3 the price of the guitar, or when the cost of the guitar is such that it should sound good to begin with.

I guess it's more of a price point thing for me. Then again, I'm cheap anyway.

Here is what I have found over the years. A good guitar sounds good no matter what pickups are in it and you cant make a bad sounding guitar sound as good by changing pickups.

As to answer the original question the MIM Tele pickups bridge doesnt have a baseplate and they are wound on plastic bobbins. They use the same model in several different guitars the HWY1 Strat has the same pickups as the 50's Classic Strat MIM and the HWY1 Tele uses the same pickups the 50's Classic MIM Tele uses. If you go to Mr gearhead and look at the Fender parts numbers you can see how they use the same pickups in several models.

I don't mind the sound of the MiM standard ceramic pickups, except I've had a few where the high E had very low volume. That the main reason I changed the pickups in my first MiM standard. I still prefer the sound of Alnico magnets, but ceramics in general can sound really good.

I got that mini Squire for my son and for some reason, it sounds great, and very balanced, string to string. so far, that's the only set of ceramics I really like a lot. And they wax potted them. I don't remember if they do that to MiM standard pups...

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Originally Posted by telecast

Exactly. Why on earth would anyone buy a new guitar and PLAN to change Pups?

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Because it's a lot easier to change pups and pots and brag about your tone than it is to become a great guitar player.


That's why.

Wow, OA is more cynical than I am! :dude

I suspect there's a lot of truth to that, but I also think there are some guys that just love to tinker. I love to tinker, but I'd rather do a whole guitar than dink around with a component. :)

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

Because it's a lot easier to change pups and pots and brag about your tone than it is to become a great guitar player.


That's why.

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:D Ouch!
There IS an off chance that one's greatness could emerge right after a p'up/pot swap.
It'd be cool, and mighty handy, if there was a meter to measure the relationship of one to the other.

But what the hey, revelling in what you hear when you play is what makes the good stuff happen. I suppose there's lots of ways to reach that state.

I bought my first tele because I wanted a change. Played great, took a while to acclimate to the "tele mindset". Youknow, having tone pots that actually do something. :-)

After a while, I decided that although I liked the way the guitar played, it didn't sound quite right. Too polite. Too much like my strat, & not enough like the "blizzard of nails" tele signature sound.

So I swapped in a set of Fender CS Texas Teles pups. Much better. Saved me from having to sell the guitar & start the search all over.

That's why *I* swapped mine. YMMV.

FWIW, I don't claim to be a great player. Just another geezer that used to play out.

Incidentally, I was temporarily overtaken by modding fever & though about changing the pups in my '87 strat. That is, until I plugged it in. Sounds great, why mess with success?

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Originally Posted by telecast

Ok, thanks for proving my point. If you buy a guitar that sounds good out of the box, you'd never be able to establish a 'predisposition'.

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I've come across precisely ... um ... about ZERO of these. Even my homebrews have taken some pup swaping to get things right. Seriously, the guitar that I've bought that felt good have usually had stiff of muddy pups. The one's that sound good I couldn't afford or played not to my liking.

Oh well, just another day in a random and meaningless universe. YMMV.

I hear you guys, but good Tele tone is almost all amp and player. You pump a stock ASe through a cranked BadCat, Dr. Z, or a Matchless, and pickup brand becomes pretty moot.

If you used a crapola amp, it will sound like crapola no matter who wound your pups.

Sorry, but's that the way life is in the real world of TPFM (Tele Playing For Money.)

Hey,

Not to change the subject or anything, but there's a lot more variety of everything.

Any idea how many different kinds of Coca-Cola there are now, including different size bottles?

"Let's see, I want Diet, Caffeine-free, Vanilla-flavored, Lactose-intolerant, aspartame-free Coke, in a 12 ounce can."

"No can do, Mister. That only comes in a half-liter bottle, in an eight pack. And we aren't allowed to break up eight-packs."



You go to a big Supermarket, and you ever notice how many diffent kinds af salt there are now? You can get butter-flavored, and onion-flavored, and wacky-colored, and Kosher, and Sea, and artificial, and seasoned, and seafood, and cajun, and Jesus it just goes on and on.

Obviously, if they can make that many different kinds of salt, the number of possible guitar pickups is infinite.

Don't get me started on boring looking sedans!

:lol

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Originally Posted by telecast

Moreover, a lot of people tinker because that's all they have to do. I'm going to hazard a wild guess that a HUGE part of aftermarket parts sales are couch players. When you sit home and evaluate the guitar all day, you're going to hear things you don't like, real or imagined. 99% of those things would never be discernable in a band situation.

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I think you are on to something there. For me there are two very interesting aspects of guitar playing. First is the gear, second is the actual ability one has to play the instrument. The gear is the easiest part to improve for most couch players. Couch players work 40 hours a week and play for fun. They don't have much time to practice. For them it's a hobby they like to spend money on. Sometimes it's easy to feel more satisfied by the quality of the gear you have than your ability to actually play it. I am a couch player. I haven't jammed in a band in 10 years. I have swapped pickups, drooled over guitars and amps, but then I came to my senses. I have one good guitar that stays in tune, one amp that sounds pretty good, but would never work in a band situation, and I practice when I feel like it. I've thought of buying more gear, but really, what is the point? I have perfectly fine gear to keep me satisfied. I feel a greater sense of accomplishment from learning a new blues lick than from buying new pickups.

Don'r get me wrong. Tinkering is fine. It's fun, I do it, and there is some sort of special bond that you get from playing an instrument you built or modded.

But the issue becomes that the differences aren't enough to matter when you play live in most cases. I do it this way - if I have one I like but it sounds not to my liking, I'm not goning to change from Texas Specials to Bill Lawrences. I'm going to make a HUGE, major change and try to make it sound REALLY different. I find that pup changes work the best when you go to the extremes. If I have a Strat that I want to sound freaking huge and hairy, I'll drop HotRails in it and make it a screamer. That sort of thing.

Talking about sublte differences and then pumping it through house sound doesn't work - for me.

I choose between regular and noiseless. Glassy or overwound. When in doubt, hotter is better. Give me lots of treble and mids. Those mains will add all the girth I need. If I have too much bass, it gets muddy in the mix. Mids are what separate you from the band, and treble gives you the edge.

Course, I once used the neck pup on a Strat in 1975...

telecast does have a point, but I think a good reason some people change pickups. is for variety. I know my self I have a Gibson Sg standard, and i just bought a Gibson Sg fadded. And I plan to drop some 57 classic pickups in it.
Not that I think the 490's sound bad (infact i love them) but I want it to sound a lil differnt then my other SG. Cause whats the point of ditto ditto.
So I can see why many guys who have 5 strats 3 teles what ever would wanna experment or change pickups. So they still ahve what they love and it's a lil dit differn't then the others to keep things interesting

I see we've had somewhat of an explosion here .... it's great to see so much activity. As a pickup manufacturer I can tell you I see a lot of players fall in love with a beautiful guitar regardless of how it sounds, knowing full well they can make it sound the way they want simply by changing pickups. And they have a lot of fun doing it too. They learn stuff, have the experience and the reward of satisfaction ..... satisfaction of customizing their own guitar.

And then there is another group who have a guitar for years and years, unchanged. Then it happens one day they compare it to a friends guitar, or they start to play a different style, or whatever....and they become dissatisfied with the pickups thay have and start looking around for replacements to give them the improvements they need. A classic example is getting sick and tired of annoying 60Hz noise, a subject close to my own heart. They love their guitar (like a wife or girlfriend) and dont want to part with it and changing pickups is the perfect solution.

But when you look around the pickup market place is quite bewildering and confusing, thus the original post in this thread. People need to make informed choices and information is essential to them. That's why they like to know stuff about pickups. Technical specs is one way someone might make a decision, not the preferred way but if that's all you know......

I like to work on guitars also. It's fun. but I'm trying leave my guitars strock, or the basic stuff stock so I can learn to hear what I think the designer felt what the guitar would sound like.

I only have three guitars now. A stock AmSer Strat, a stock Epi LP standard, and the parts Tele, which of course is not stock because it came from a bunch of different guitars.

I can't always leave them stock. I'll change pots and switches. I'll shield them also, but leave teh stock pups.

Designers are people sitting in offices with a parts price list trying to squeeze performance into a price point at the behest of the sales department. I call them bean counters, counting the cents and dollars it takes to make a product in order to minimize costs and maximize profits. You have to be aware that in this extremely price conscious world 98% of the time you will get what you paid for. I have seen a 2 cent piece of wire designed out of a product to make it that much easier and cheaper to make, that missing piece of wire eventually led to problems for many players.

I heard that General Motors dismissed 28,000 production employees last year in one hit. Those folks were Americans my friends, they lost their jobs because other Americans didn't want to pay the price for quality cars that it costs to make them. Result, even cheaply MIA cars can not compete with imports from low labour cost countries. Where is this all gonna end? One speculation is that the US will no longer be the strongest power, China will. And that scares me.

I put my money where my mouth is too, I try to source materials and components for my products from western countries as much as possible. But it gets harder by the day as my supply companies are forced out of local production and driven to China, India wherever....in order to remain competitive. But in doing so have to shed staff. Its just one big ever decreasing circle that's gonna change our lives dramatically in the not too distant future. Did I digress??? uhhh sorry....I had that on my mind and it just flowed on from the post above, not that photoweborama is overly implicated, he seems to have a couple of US made guitars in his collection so, kudos to him. Buy western....buy buy buy and keep our countries strong.....I say.

Buying western made pickups and custom parts for our western guitars all helps the cause. Lets not entertain MIM stuff when so much great stuff is available from western sources for what really are great prices, considering the cost of producing them is disproportionately higher then for low labour cost sources.

Um...last time I checked, Mexico was in the western hemisphere. It is, in fact, just down the road from California.

Of course you're right.. but it Mexico IS a low labour cost country (which was my point), no disputing that.

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Originally Posted by Chris Kinman

Where is this all gonna end?

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Um, ... I got it: When every job that pays a living wage with purchasing power is replaced with one paying poverty wages. Hell of a plan, eh? :bonk

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Originally Posted by Chris Kinman

One speculation is that the US will no longer be the strongest power, China will. And that scares me.

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If the Chinese pay their workers I'd be cool with it. It'd be better than what our American political and business leaders are doing. (Mind you, have no more faith in Chinese leadership, just suprising little more in American bosses.) :ola

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Originally Posted by Chris Kinman

I heard that General Motors dismissed 28,000 production employees last year in one hit. Those folks were Americans my friends, they lost their jobs because other Americans didn't want to pay the price for quality cars that it costs to make them. Result, even cheaply MIA cars can not compete with imports from low labour cost countries. Where is this all gonna end? One speculation is that the US will no longer be the strongest power, China will. And that scares me.

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Chris, why does that scare someone from Oz?

The Seymour Duncan, (not Duncan Design) p'ups I just removed from my Korean FMT Telecaster were supposed to be a Pearly Gates and '59. I replaced them with what I know to be a domestic '59 and a Custom V. They sound better.

Are the p'ups that came in my Korean FMT Tele made "offshore"?

Well, just being back from China... The majority of them are making much more than poverty wage. About $360.00 US a month.. But then again, you can live just fine on a couple of hundred bucks a month over there. That's the difference. Cost of living is very low, and that matches the wage.

But at the rate they are going, it's not going to last forever. It's going to take some time, but eventually it will cost as much to manufacture there as it does here, or anywhere.

Since the end of the "Cultural Revolution", people over there are making up for lost time at a break neck pace. They have a huge hunger for consumer goods, and with that, it requires higher and higher salaries.

I can't say I have all American built stuff, and I can't really say I'm that conscious of it, but if the product has value for what I need it for, I buy it.

Then you have people like me, who received a MIM Standard for my 17th birthday nine years ago and really wanted a heavier sound through a cheap amp, so I put wooly humbuckers in it and used it for the alternative music it wasn't designed for.

This year I finally got my Les Paul and my musical tastes have somewhat changed, so I restored the Strat to a 3-single-coil setup. I didn't put the stock pickups back in, rather I replaced them again with an EMG-SA set. Simple enough to install and great for live performance with power on tap and noise-free operation.

As for the Les Paul, I'll probably throw some gentler pickups in it, even though the Classic's ceramic pickups sound fine for most of what I play, I'd still like to tweak some Alnico II cream in there with a set of Duncan APH's I've had sitting around for a while. I'll throw the stockers in an Epiphone Korina V for a little boost for that rocker.

We have seen this before what chris is talking about. In England.
After WW2 The brittish where one of the few countrys left in europe that could build quality cars. They where allso the number one ship producing country in the enitre world. They pretty much cornered the small car market. they where 2nd to america in Car production. But through mismanagement, poor products (people would buy it just for the name). And poor marketing. Toyota allmost over took the entire market overnight when they landed. And the english are like Americains in a buisness sence. They can't be bothered to run there own companys they sell them for the right price. As long as they have 10 sport cars in there driveway they don't give a crap about the 30 000 workers now having to seek new employment. In 1960 England from a world power in manufacturing. To NOT manufacturing. Every thing in england has been sold to germans italians even yanks. They don't even build there own trains anymore. And yet they where the standard in trains since the 1700's. They don't build ships. yet (brittainia ruled the waves) So if you guys want other countrys to decide how you work, how much your getting paid etc. Support China! western culture is so busy getting rich quick. they have lost there sence of pride inthemselves.

We were talking about pickups right?

China is just the beginning. There are a lot of other countries that will enter the fray in the coming years. Myanmar (Burma), Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam just to name a few. And once they are caught up there are all the Eastern European block, and then the Islamic states to the north of Afghanastan, lots of them that we never hear about. Plenty of low cost labour there.

I am sympathetic to their plight of poverty but if we in the west dont change our spending habits a lot of us are going to be handing our jobs over to those countries. Australia exported some 10,000 jobs to Indian call centres last year. The family business that does my Gold plating is worried because two competing platers closed last month, the work went to China. The family business that used to mould my pickup covers went bust when one large customer went to manufacturing in China. The list grows ever faster and more every month.

I was in a shop buying something last month and I found a product that was marked "Made in Australia"...I was so surprised and excited that I yelled out loud... "Hey looke here.. I found something made in Australia" ... and the whole shop full of people erupted in laughter. That would have been funny if it wasn't so tragic.

Why shouldn't I be concerned when the fabric of our economy is being ripped apart and gutted. And for what??? lower prices on consumer goods and the greed of corporations who want to cash in on that !!!! It reminds me of a bunch of termites eating away at the house they live in. Fine while the food lasts, but it has to run out one day.... and then what? Unlike tremites we just cant move house. Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I see the trend and it's gaining momentum, like a run away freight train it's gonna run over us one day. "The world it is a changing" ..... Bob Dylan.

To answer Kap'n, why am I scared? Just the obvious.... like China with it's terrible abuse of human rights one day might be our lord and master. It's conceivable, if the western economies crumble someone will step into the vacume. Its the law of nature. And it's been said that civilizations run their course and eventually disintergrate/collapse (for whatever reason) and it's also been said we are living on borrowed time. I hope it's not the case, I like my life as it is. I can only imagine what I'd be doing if I wasn't doing this, I know I'll adapt but there is a price to pay for such massive disruption.

Wow what a digression this turned out to be...... interesting food for thought though. BTW only time will tell if there is any substance to all this, maybe I'm wrong....hope so.

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Originally Posted by Super Champ

We were talking about pickups right?

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It might be hard to grasp but the humble pickup is kinda representative of what's happening in so many other facets of the economy. And who knows maybe you'll start a spending revolution that'll spread thoroughout the western economies.

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Originally Posted by Chris Kinman

It might be hard to grasp but the humble pickup is kinda representative of what's happening in so many other facets of the economy. And who knows maybe you'll start a spending revolution that'll spread thoroughout the western economies.

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I do understand that. But, we went from "are mexi pups really not as good as Am" to "why the hell would one want to change pickups or buy a guitar, then change the pickups" to how pickups "somehow" pertain to the economy. Im sure you can dig deep (like what is going on) and come up with a reason but you've strayed so far from the subject at hand that it no longer pertains to pickups.

Chris, I think you are making a classical "fallacy of composition"-error in your macro-economy analysis in post #40. Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread (sorta busy and on the job), but it is not true, that moving manual labour abroad necessarily makes Australian poorer. On the contrary it might make them wealthier because of the increased demand for goods and services from Chinese consumers. So this is less of a reason for worries. The real problem is the structural problems in those countries that can kiss a lot of manual labour goodbye. What will those people do that used to hold those jobs? On top of that - is a spread of the western lifestyle to the entire globe sustainable? The answer my friend...

It's funny how players get all on into this swapping and replacing and trying this and that, and then eventually, if they take their playing seriously enough over the years, end up with one or two preferences that really get the job done and they stop the modding and get on with the serious playing regardless of what their playing. This is not to say that modding a guitar is bad or wrong or has dubious politcal ramifications, it's just that it seems once a player reaches a certain point in their playing, the seem to concentrate more on making what they have work instead of looking for the answers in the latest, greatest gizmo just released from the Acme Answers Co.

Bob, and we agree yet again.

Plus, I find the value is in buying it and playing it. I don't understand how buying a MIM, replacing three pups, the pots, the trem, and the tuners is any cheaper than just buying a decent guitar in the first place, except that the decent guitar is still worth something and the MIM is worth $300 no matter how much you throw at it. So, if you buy a guitar. own it for a few years and sell it, the cost of ownership is less if you buy the good one! And it was good from the get-go, so you got more utility from it.

Chris, you bring up some good points, but I'd challenge som eof them. The cost of direct labor is usually pretty small. The reason the mported products cost significantly less in the US is often due to

1) A flatter distribution organization - which shows that the "services economy" is a fallacy, and

2) They are often subsidized.

In my previous life, I was chief engineer for a big corporation. The company tried vainly to reduce costs by moving operations offshore. Even though we saved money in direct labor, we ended up adding cost by shipping, the time lag our money was tied up in containers, and we created non-value adding jobs to support offshore operations. When we looked at it from every angle, it was the organization that added costs, not the manufacturing operations. In every analysis I did, it was more cost effective to manufacture here in the US. We ended up with lower cost, and quality was significantly better. Quality was the one that surprised everyone, but in retrospect it made complete sense.

If you manufacture a widget, you do internal monitoring and testing before you ship. But you can only test what you know will go wrong o what you think will could go wrong. But we're not psychics. Sometimes something slips through and becomes a problem "in the field." Now, if we're building it right here and the feedback comes back thatr w have an issue, we find the problem and fix it. But if we find the problem and it happened two months ago but it took us that long to get the product built overseas, shipped here, unshipped and distributed, I have two months of finished goods in the supply chain! Not good!

So if I put on my shoes with tassles and think like a bean counter, (simplisticly) the reduction of direct labor costs makes offshore operations look good. But if I actually listen to the people who understand, there IS NO SAVINGS IN THE LONG RUN. And the higher volume the product, the hgher the automation, and the less direct labor, so eventually, there are only higher costs assocaited with offshore manufacturing as volumeincreases!

So, it's not the people building things, it's the mindset of the guys on Mahogany Row that are increasing the cost of US goods.

And from a macro view, it all comes down to common sense. You can't have a trade deficit and a healthy economy.

China is the perfect example. We import more than weexport. We have a trade deficit, and as such, a tax deficit. So we borrow money from China to srvice the national debt. And in return, China gets to subsidize exports to the US giving them an unfair advantage in the markeplace...

Mgad, I'm piping in hear becasue I feel it is YOU that is making a grievous error in the perception of the spread of Asian rim manufacturing replacing ours. Please please please people, remember that China first and formost is a COMUNIST nation. At their core their leadrship not only does not adhier to our Western values for society, they absolutely hate us and intend to do us harm. The $$$s that are being funneled into their economy (and primaily their goverment) IS and WILL be used to further their aganeda. Liberal bedsetters and all you sexual intellectuals LISTEN-UP! At this point, not only are we tossing our manufacturing jobs and infrastructure, we are WAY behing the curve in percieving this growing and dangerous situation. We are litteraly "waking the sleepign dragon". And this quote comes not from me but from senior business associates in Korea who are a tad more faminliar with thier RED neighbor. We should not be planting more Wal-Marts we should by this point be pumping out tanks and such in large numbers lest our Chinese manufacturing partners WILL become our OverLords. And all quicker that you can imagine.

Maybe it makes some wealthier, but the people I know that have had their businesses ruined by offshore sourcing by their good customers. Chinese consumers can't afford western products, hell even many westerners can't afford them. And when 1000M Chinese all start driving cars around the greenhouse effect may make all this discussion moot. But I do take your point about fallacy of composition. Yeah, maybe I should see it differently but recently I saw a lot of disturbing stuff and it does tend to ruffle feathers. Lets digress back to pickups and guitars huh!!! :D

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Originally Posted by RocketMan

At their core their leadrship not only does not adhier to our Western values for society, they absolutely hate us and intend to do us harm.

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Some folks say that about Middle Eastern countries, too.

I'm positive China and Middle Eastern countries say that about us too.

Hell, I say that about my own government.

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Originally Posted by Chris Kinman

Lets digress back to pickups and guitars huh!!! :D

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No problemo!

So, what's in the pipeline Chris? And I totally agree that it's just too confusing out there.

Back to my view on all this - pups will make small changes, but a Strat through a Fender amp will sound like --- a Strat through a Fender amp. A Lester thought a Marshal will sound like what it is, and a Tele through a Dr. Z will sound - awesome. The pups are maybe the last 5% of the equation, but decent playing will overshadow that small contribution.

The other part of this I struggle with is how we get so caught up in trying to recreate the vintage stuff, which was mostly pretty cheap stuff to begin with.

My two main working guitars are a worthless Esquire clone, and a Strat+ with VN's. So, everything is totally wrong about my guitars anyway. I like em because they play great and stay in tune. I can deal with all the other issues (aka, the ubiquitous "tone" thing) via my amp and the sound system. Last time we played and people were mud-diving in front of the stage, I was musing about the whole tone deal while my guitar gently shreiked.

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Originally Posted by Tele-Bob

It's funny how players get all on into this swapping and replacing and trying this and that, and then eventually, if they take their playing seriously enough over the years, end up with one or two preferences that really get the job done and they stop the modding and get on with the serious playing regardless of what their playing. This is not to say that modding a guitar is bad or wrong or has dubious politcal ramifications, it's just that it seems once a player reaches a certain point in their playing, the seem to concentrate more on making what they have work instead of looking for the answers in the latest, greatest gizmo just released from the Acme Answers Co.

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Kinda like life in general huh TB?? Some call it maturing.

CT.:ahem

Offshore Angler, I'm really glad to hear that at least some US manufacturers have/are still learning the often false economies of low-cost offshore sourcing. Your illustrations re time lag and quality issues, costs involved in logistics etc are heartwarming, but I'm afraid not enough people in the drivers seat understand or care what you have learned. If your experience was shared widespread why then does China have a BOOM economy and we in the west are all mostly the dooldrums? (dont answer that :) And the only profit increases of big corporations come from cost cutting and mass staff retrenchments...not efficiency or sales increases. It all comes back to spending patterns, consumers want cheaper prices and manufacturers have to provide or else the competition will. The race began years ago, the question is who are the real winners in the end? Not the consumers or the manufacturers I suspect. Ironic aint it? There are more ways to win a war than firing live ammunition.

RocketMan, good on ya for expressing your views. I dont think alarm bells are ever a bad thing. Gotta keep people on their toes lest we lapse into complacency (which IS a VERY bad thing)

Super Champ, your right of course, I admitted to digressing. But hell it was an interesting digression and one or two others thought so too. I'm done.

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Originally Posted by Chris Kinman

Maybe it makes some wealthier, but the people I know that have had their businesses ruined by offshore sourcing by their good customers. Chinese consumers can't afford western products, hell even many westerners can't afford them. And when 1000M Chinese all start driving cars around the greenhouse effect may make all this discussion moot. But I do take your point about fallacy of composition. Yeah, maybe I should see it differently but recently I saw a lot of disturbing stuff and it does tend to ruffle feathers. Lets digress back to pickups and guitars huh!!! :D

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Give them time, and they will be craving vintage Fenders with genuine Kinman Pups. The people with the ruined business are just unfortunate. I pity them a lot, but there is no real answer but to start anew. Many people won't be able to do that. Sorry again.

But I agree, back to guitars :)

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Originally Posted by RocketMan

Mgad, I'm piping in hear becasue I feel it is YOU that is making a grievous error in the perception of the spread of Asian rim manufacturing replacing ours. Please please please people, remember that China first and formost is a COMUNIST nation. At their core their leadrship not only does not adhier to our Western values for society, they absolutely hate us and intend to do us harm. The $$$s that are being funneled into their economy (and primaily their goverment) IS and WILL be used to further their aganeda. Liberal bedsetters and all you sexual intellectuals LISTEN-UP! At this point, not only are we tossing our manufacturing jobs and infrastructure, we are WAY behing the curve in percieving this growing and dangerous situation. We are litteraly "waking the sleepign dragon". And this quote comes not from me but from senior business associates in Korea who are a tad more faminliar with thier RED neighbor. We should not be planting more Wal-Marts we should by this point be pumping out tanks and such in large numbers lest our Chinese manufacturing partners WILL become our OverLords. And all quicker that you can imagine.

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I sorta both agree and disagree, but that is as far as I am following you out in that swamp. Could be fun, but this is not the place.

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Originally Posted by CocoTone

Kinda like life in general huh TB?? Some call it maturing.

CT.:ahem

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Sounds more like two testimonials to me. I can name many players who are concerned about their gear who are also successful players of repute. Don't equate your own personal experiences as being indicative of some greater truism--there are simply too many examples to the contrary.

As far as the vintage deal, it really is the quirkyness that we look for. I've played many an aftermarket pup that sounded great. Great all the time, and great everywhere on the neck. And therin lies the problem. I really like a guitar that does something a little different as it reponds to playing. It adds a nice dynamic to the playing.

The vintage stuff that I like is generally the ones that have personality. Perhaps one pole peice has aged differently than the others. Maybe it was built that way. But character comes from inperfections. Some of the aftermarkets seem just a little too well behaved for live playing. I've read how many companies have tried to get rid of the "problems" inherent to certain pup types. Well, I dig some of the problems! Being well-behaved and totally predictable is so NOT Rock and Roll!

But then I think of a guy like Chris, and understand consistensy is exactly what he sells. But as far as the quirks, yo can leave them in the design and we'll be very happy, Thank You very much. In fact, that's why I settled on the VN's in my Stratocaster. They somehow remained unsophisticated enough to sound good.

Well the way I see it, the Mexican pickups don't sound bad, but they have a big string-to-string balance problem. They taper the ceramic magnets to fit the contour radius of a neck. Unfortunately, it’s usually not contoured to match the radius of the neck of the guitar they are put in.

Basically, if you set your string height by the high and low E, your middle strings are way too hot, and if you set by the middle stings, your high and low E are too quiet. I'm not sure if staggered pole pieces are that much better, but they seem to be.

One of the Strats I saw in China had staggered ceramic pickups. That would have been interesting to see how that one sounded. If it got rid of the string-to-string balance problems MiM ceramics are know for.

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Originally Posted by hudpucker

Sounds more like two testimonials to me. I can name many players who are concerned about their gear who are also successful players of repute. Don't equate your own personal experiences as being indicative of some greater truism--there are simply too many examples to the contrary.

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Could`ve worn I used the term `in general`,,,I`m only speaking from my own experiences. Like someone else said, in another thread maybe,, a good player can make anything sound good.

CT.:ahem

Is it time again for us to all start harassing Chris about a noiseless P90?

We haven't forgotten Chris! Every time I see a sweet Warmoth body routed out for P90's I am reminded of how much I'd like to have a good noiseless set.

whole lotta stuff to read here...

but for example my case:

I'm a tall guy with long fingers/big hands. that's why I like fatter necks. for my style of playing I prefer medium jumbos. I like natural necks 'cos my hands tend to sweat when playing guitar. I don't like the single coil humming so I'll go with some noiseless ones.

So now you tell me which Strat to buy in the FIRST place that can get that job better done than a Mexican JV with the pups I like...?!

secong example:
got myself a faded SG. Swapped pups for mod fun to 4 conductors to get the buckers splitted 'cos I always thought SGs were capable of more sounds than most players use her for. Greatest idea ever for me! Two simple coil taps and I can get a least 10 times more sounds out of her sometimes even Stratlike to a certain extend... I loved the mod so much I'm considering a Jimmy Page wiring mod. my question: where to get a SG like that?

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Originally Posted by photoweborama

Well the way I see it, the Mexican pickups don't sound bad, but they have a big string-to-string balance problem. They taper the ceramic magnets to fit the contour radius of a neck. Unfortunately, it’s usually not contoured to match the radius of the neck of the guitar they are put in.

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Phtot, old buddy, you're thinking too linear! OK, I will now share a secret of mine that I figured out a while back.

Vintage pups were built for a smaller neck radius. So, when you put them in a modern axe, the middle poles are too high. So right there is the secret to the vintage pup sound.

You raise the treble side, lower the bass and you get great balance from the strings excpet the really low end. And guess what, live, playing rock ( in the single coil way - not grungy or crunchy) low end is in the way! And hence, you get that great Strat cutting tone through the PA.

There, the cat's out of the bag. I'm probably going to be asked to hand in my Spandex and wig now.

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Could be fun, but this is not the place.

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Mgad;
I agree.