songwriters' lounge

Rickenjangle, I agree 100%, but I think for a fledgling songwriter it's a trap that draws them into introspective word-smithing that won't connect with an audience. Nothing wrong with that if it's a catharthis type of writing binge.


Well, here's some "I" in a song I recorded a while back just to show I'll break my own rules. Song was goofy lyrically, but melodically it kicks ass. So I keep it around for a rewrite.

Mrs OA loved it until she figured out it was about the dog.


****************************
LSFAD

I watched you watch me while I watched TV
I’d say your name and you tipped your head
And your eyes smiled at me.
All the years between us, have seen us both grow grey
And I could tell what you were thinking
Though you’d never much to say.

(Chorus)
But then, you had to go away
Away, you had to go away

When I’d get home whenever
You’d always greet me with a smile
My day was never over till I talked to you a while
You always seemed so happy
When we’d ride in my old truck
With you on that seat next to me I was never out of luck

(Bridge)
For fifteen years we were just so happy
Through thick and thin you were by my side
But now you’re gone, this big old house is empty
You cant believe how many nights that I….

Repeat Verse 1
Chorus
coda

Shoot, that puts a tear in my eye! I wish I had a dog so I could go home and hug him!

here's anew one i wrote last night. still working out the third verse, but it seemed to come together real quick. a pop-rock type song in the "superdrag" type of rock.

"This One Pony Town"

mary sees what she's been missing
the answer's not buying in it's selling out
all the reasons she's been given
are now coming out of her mouth
shouldn't we feel like the lucky ones,
watching her come out of her shell?
she might feel just like a hypocrite
cause her whole world's gone south

i will never let you drown
in this one pony town

i tried to tell you to be careful
i tried to tell you the truth
there's a lot of ugly people
none of them are quite like you
but i can't hold your hand forever
you've got to see it for yourself
you can trust that i have been there
i'm trying to save you from yourself

chorus

(want to put a nifty guitar solo before the 3rd verse)

now that you've been turned out
don't you think it's time for you to come home?
where i won't tell you lies
just to get you to stay for the night
i know it might sound strange
but i think you're more than that




and that's as far as i got. like i said, i'm still working out the third verse but i tend to just put the words in to redo later. i'm thinking of dropping two lines out of the last verse also to keep it fresh and shorten up the ending. beings that i want this one to be "poppier" than most of my songs.

i'll let it sit for a couple days and then go back to edit and tighten things up lyrically.

chucko, I really like the "ear" of this lyric. With no attitude on my part and no obligation on yours (hey, I'm going to invent a new acronym for that: NAOMP-NOOP), I feel like the rhyme scheme keeps the main rhymes too far part in the verses. What if you went more like this?

mary sees what she's been missing
it's not what you buy, it's what you sell..
Shouldn't we feel like the lucky ones,
watching her come out of her shell?
All the reasons she's been given
are now coming out of her mouth...
she might feel just like a hypocrite
cause her whole world's gone south

If you think of the rhyme this way, the rest of lyric may come easier. I'd also look at avoiding "yourself" at the end of a line. That's how a million girls/dreams/hearts/dinner plates have ended up "on the shelf." ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gravity Jim

I'd also look at avoiding "yourself" at the end of a line. That's how a million girls/dreams/hearts/dinner plates have ended up "on the shelf." ;)

---

Perhaps the worst Eagles lyric ever. :lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kap'n

Perhaps the worst Eagles lyric ever. :lol

---

And with so many clunky ones to choose from, too. How can anyone top, "Well, I'm runnin' down the road tryin' to loosen my load?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gravity Jim

"Well, I'm runnin' down the road tryin' to loosen my load?"

---

I find castor oil works better than jogging.

Hahahaha

thanks for the input jim, it is appreciated. like i said, i'll come back to it in a couple days and edit. i just have to write stuff down as it comes to me or i'll never remember it later. will update when i get the words sorted out.

This site has lots of stuff that might be helpful in jogging the mind.
http://www.musesmuse.com/menu-help.html
I know my mind needs some jogging. :bonk
Found it in Acoustic Gtr magazine.
It's sort of a Reader's Digest on the subject of songwriting.
I've only skimmed around, but I printed a couple articles for train reading.



Keep on rockin'!
Your pal,
NF:yay

hey guys and gal(s?), i'm a little late to the party, but i've been lurking this thread since it started. been WAY too busy lately to even think about writing, but things are finally settling into a groove, and i'm starting a new project that's going to rely heavily on originals, so i thought i'd pop in for a little inspiration and whatnot.(BTW, i love just about everything i've read here).

my biggest problem is a combination of laziness and perfectionism-if it's not stellar right out of the box i have a hard time finishing it. but a lot of times i just let those half formed ideas percolate (sometimes for years) in the back of my head, then revisit them once in a while to see what a little perspective can do. here's a good example of this- i've had the first line of this song bouncing around for about six or seven years, and just finally put a riff to it and then it all fell in place. it's about a time in my life that i don't neccesarily regret, but wouldn't care to revisit, and it's called "Spun". A-F#-D-A, think everclear (more on that later).

It's hard to sleep with someone when you never sleep
Still hard to break a promise that you never meant to keep
I can't shut my eyes, and watch the world go by
I can't shut my mouth and stop these lies from coming out

Never should've had that last one, hell i never should've had the first
i'm amazed how fucking fast it went from a blessing to a curse
never should've cracked that bottle, yeah drinking only makes it worse
never should've gave in 'cuz i know i'll never quench this thirst but

what am i doing here, in this stupid place
what am i doing with this stupid smile on my stupid face
what am i doing acting strong when i know i'm weak
too tired to leave, and too spun to sleep

I don't wanna live like this, with this bleeding heart
I don't wanna live this way, with this secret fear
I don't wanna die like this, waiting for a stolen kiss
I don't wanna die this way with my pulse pounding in my ears

what am i doing here...

Stop the music, at least almost, whisper (or shout) "Rebirth" and bring on the instrumental thunder.

I've tried it.

here's another one that goes back about 15 years. (it's a really stonesy thing in G w/ an A7 right where you'd expect it to be). It's called "Dale's House" 'cuz that's the name of my roommate at the time.

I woke up this morning, with jack daniels on my breath
a bastard of a headache, and a stranger in my bed
my landlord called up bitchin', 'boout the backrent i ain't paid
my roommate drank my whiskey, man i've had better days

CHORUS: I wanna new car,(big G-Bb-B-C walk here) I wanna new house
I wanna new life, man I gotta get out
I wanna go home, my life is going nowhere
I wanna go home, but I'm already there (C-B-A-G rundown here)

Got laid off from my last job, quit the one before
I hate the one I got now, but man i really need the dough
I wonder why I bother, gettin' out of bed
It's the first day of the rest of my life, and i wish i was dead

CHORUS

LEAD

Spent three years with a lover, who loved messing with my mind
took three years to recover, I was wasted all the time
so now i spend my nights with, whoever takes me home
yeah sex is overrated, but i hate to sleep alone

CHORUS

I wanna go home, but i'm already there.

:yay

i can dig that man. i'd really love to hear the whole song, but then again, i haven't recorded what i've done.

keep them coming fish de bone!

Nice stuff bonefish. :yay

Yes Indeed :yay

thanks guys.

here's another one from around the same time frame as "spun". it's based around an open C slid up to a D, then an Em Am riff. it's called (for rasons that escape me now) "Cherry Wheat". (bonus points-see if you can spot the stephen king reference)

I am not crying for the loves I have lost
I am not weeping let me get this across to you
I am not grieving for my broken heart
I've just been staring too long at the dark

I denied three times like Peter and was then myself denied
the truth I see before me stems from all my lies
the world has ways to drag you down an you know she keeps on trying but...

I am not crying...
Iam not cyring...

I am not bleeding though I'm cut to the quick
I am not wounded, I am not sick
I am not worried and I don't intend to start
I've just been staring to long at the dark

LEAD BREAK

I am not screaming that life is unfair
I know it is and I do not care
I am not trying to tear it all apart
I've just been staring too long at the dark

All the crazy things we tell ourselves to keep our mental health
seem to fade away when you're driving home by yourself
the world has was to drag you down an you know it keeps on tryin but...
I am not crying...
I am not crying...
I am not crying... (fade) Co-written w/ shane garry

i just remembered, i've got a rough demo of "dale's house" and a few others on our soundclick page here

Well, folks, it looks like I might be writing a country song.
It just sprouted up around a couple of lines I had in a notebook that must be 3 or 4 years old.
Kind of an old school, maybe Roy Orbison feel.
A few verses and a bridge so far.

Twice As Blue

There’s a breeze stirring the blinds
No moon out to get in my eyes
I should be dreaming
So should you
Toss and turn
What else is new?

Half awake and half asleep
Naked as the starless sky
And twice as dark
Twice as blue
Once again
Without a clue

How to lay now and then in their places
One in front and one behind
What lies beyond
Slips right through
I'm twice as dark
Twice as blue

It’s later than it ought to be
Sweet slumber, I could not find
Bloodshot eyes
Things to do
Coffee black
Sun breaks through

Is it regret
Or just the quiet ‘round here
That’s laid me so low since you’ve gone?
I told myself
That I didn’t want
And couldn’t possibly need for a while
Then you, I loved
I desired, I craved, but I pushed you away
Now I’m wondering, what have I done?

Twice As Blue-Bill Knell c2005

Here's another one from my recent spurt. I'm curious to hear what y'all think.

C'est La Vie

Driving by the reservoir
When something stirred
Thought I heard a voice
Couldn’t make out a word

Fog kissing the water
Dancing on the breeze
Evocative of something
That left me uneasy

Cest la vie
So it goes
Just take the wheel
And let it roll

Falling through bare branches
Moonlight on the road
Scattered revelations
Show me where to go

Bending with the yellow lines
A ribbon of black
Winding through the shadows
To bring me back

It seems by now I might be used to all these things I see
I ought to know this road as well as where it always leads
But the wonder never wanes
If anything it grows
Like a spring that feeds the water from so far below
You get what you need
But never really know

(Instrumental chorus, maybe)

Waiting at a traffic light
At the edge of town
For no real reason
Not a soul around

Changing now from red to green
The mist turns to rain
Wonder why I stop at all
When it’s really all the same

It seems by now I might be used to all these things I see
I ought to know this road as well as where it always leads
But the wonder never wanes
If anything it grows
Like a spring that feeds the water from so far below
You get what you need
But never really know

Reaching for the radio
It turns me on
How suddenly it’s all so clear
For the span of a song

Cest la vie
So it goes
Just take the wheel
And let it roll…

"C'est La Vie" c Bill Knell 2006

I never used to be one of these "write everyday" people.
But it seems to work, at least when there's ideas percolating.
Wierd. And I've been going through some older stuff, and noticing similarities in the POV of the what I'm writing.
The old stuff came and was worked on so sporadically that I figured it was just random, lucky. Now I actually set aside some time, pretty much daily to work on 'em. They do start off just occurring to me, but then in the more concious, worked-on parts, I'm noticing, come from the same place. Similar thoughts surface.
Interesting goings-on.

Cheers,
NF

Neo-Fauve, that's a true observation. You can't hide yourself, no matter what. Even songs that I wrote for corporate events, where the object is to rally the troops and get peole fired up about thier jobs? I look back a couple of years later, and I can see what was happening in my life in those lyrics.

I like what you're writing, BTW... drop by Indiana and we'll make an album. :)

And I'm not sure "Twice As Blue" is a country song. What if Burt Bacharach wrote the music? And then it got covered by Wilco?

Thanks, Jim.

As long as Burt doesn't sing it.:D

In the the writing classes I've taken, at least "creative" writing, the idea was always to write what you know. Prodded by an assignment, it always seemed easy to get rolling. When I've purposely set out to write a song, the monster always kind of said, "Yeah, sure! :rl "
But when I just jot down something or record some idea that pops into my head, it's almost like the whole thing exists already, somewhere. I just have to write and escavate around that first thing and it starts showing up.
Pretty neat.

great article in the latest rolling stone with neil young-he talks about his process, kinda like being a receiver more than a creator. i've heard keef expound on the topic in a similar fashion. the really good songs write themselves. (or as we not so eloquently put it-"the muse shat upon us.") when you start editing you start second guessing yourself AND the muse. YMMV, but i try to keep the finished product as close to the original lightning bolt as possible.

Some cool posts...

I'm as hopeless in writing lyrics as I am singing them....

:bonk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kap'n

So how does one go about writing a song? We're getting harassed by friends that we need to start doing original material.

---

This was a while ago, but I've thinkin 'bout writing something in reply to this, Kap'n, and since the subject is timeless...

1. Find what could be a title, or a concept, or something that happened recently that you've been thinking about - a seed that can grow or a grain of sand that can irritate or just a point of departure.

2.Grab a stack of blank pages, look at what you just have written on top of the first page (answer to 1.) and start write everything that comes into your mind - and everything! Make a point of not censuring yourself or editing out stuff you find embarassing. And don't bother about making full sentences or making sense. The editing comes later. Do this until your arm is numb. Rest and do it again.

3. Read through what you have written. Some of the sentences and some of the thoughts should be interesting or beautiful or weird enough to continue working with.

4. Try and decide what form you are aiming for - verse chorus bridge? strophic with a refrain each last line? Decide where your little strands of words should go.

5. Now you have metric "templates" and rhyme words, cause you´re gonna have to write some more to fill in the gaps and make sense and you can also rewrite some of what you saved that doesn't fit meter-wise.

6. Write music to the lyric. And the youre gonna have to rewrite the lyric to fit the music. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kap'n

... but when it comes to getting a blank sheet of paper, I can't come up with a concept that I think is worth writing about.

---

´

I wonder if there is such a thing as a concept that is not worth writing about. :D

Regarding Kap'ns' question:
Personally, I've never had any luck with the "I'm going to write a song about..." approach.
I find that they usually start themselves.
A short bit of melody and words just comes into my head together.
It's like a hole is poked in a wall and I get a little peek at what's inside. I'll write around that and try to rip it open or fit my head through the opening.

I listen to A LOT of music. So I suspect the forms and structure pile up and pollute my thoughts. Then I go about living my life, and personal things show up in the lyrics. Maybe literally, maybe in a a more symbolic form.
I find out what it's about somewhere along the line and I can either clarify things or obscure them more. I never know which will work better.

Lately I do it AWAY from the guitar.
I write and write and re-write and tweak with the initial melody idea always in mind. It'll start to develop as I flesh out the lyrics. I'll hear verse and chorus melodies often enough up here-> :bonk during all this.
When it seems kind of whole, I'll pick up the guitar work on learning it. Not that they're anything difficult.

My playing is so habit based that I'm afraid I'd tend to paint myself into corners if I steer w/the guitar.

My tip is keep a tape recorder of notebook around, and look at what shows up. Maybe it'll point you toward something.

A tape recorder or a notebook is a great thing to have around. Whenever I get an idea, I get it down as soon as I can. Preferably i'll record it real quick just so I dont have to remember how it went. Ideas seem to come real often most of the time, except for when I actually want to write a song. So it's good to already have something in your head when you sit down to write (aka something written down or recorded previously)

i have a huge notepad of poems that i write in. and usually what happens is the good ideas will stay in my head. then when i write a song (in another notebook) they come back and work themselves into the songs. when i hit a road bump i go back into the poem book and search for ideas.

i never sit down and say "i'm writing a song today", because that never turns out. i usually just start playing guitar and something will come out if i'm inspired, and if not (like what has been happening a lot lately) then no big deal.

i usually write from start to finish, leaves spaces where i can't think of anything to go. and then go back a couple days later and see what's up with it.

Ooops... :bonk

A 3rd (?) draft of "Twice As Blue," my (potentially) country song.:D

Twice As Blue
There’s a breeze stirring the blinds
No moon out to get in my eyes
I should be dreaming
So should you
Toss and turn
What else is new?

Half awake and half asleep
Naked as the starless sky
And twice as dark
Twice as blue
Once again
Without a clue

BRIDGE I
These deeper shades
Of The coolest of hues
Go so well with the way that I feel
Oh if they would
Would just begin to fade
Or maybe start to wear thin and reveal

How to lay now and then in their places
One in front, one behind
What lies beyond
Slips right through
(It’s) Twice as dark
(I’m) Twice as blue

BRIDGE
Instrumental Bridge/Break

It’s later than it ought to be
No sweet slumber could I find
Bloodshot eyes
Things to do
Coffee black
Sun breaks through

BRIDGE II
Is it regret
Or just the quiet ‘round here
That’s laid me so low since you’ve gone?
I told myself
That I didn’t want
And couldn’t possibly need for a while
Then you, I loved
I desired, I craved, but I pushed you away
Now I’m wondering, what have I done?


There’s a breeze stirring the blinds...

It’s later than it ought to be...

“Twice As Blue” Bill Knell c2006

Late night
Quiet moon
Stars shake and tremble in the sky

Makes me think 'bout times gone by
Before when I was lonesome it was easy to cry-ee-ay-aye

...(i wanna steal that "quiet hue" line right about here.)

Go, Neo

think alt-country (i guess)

MONACO

Am (1 bar) F (1 bar) C (2 bars)

monaco, you promised to be my friend
then i watched you fold, just like a chianese fan
when you told me you loved me, i thought it was real
i guess you just had me under your spell

i watched the waves slowly roll up and drag your castle into the sea
the only ones who were laughing, were the seagulls and me
i laid my finger on your cheek, and watched your freckles sparkle like the sand
the beauty of watching things decompose, is something you'll never understand

Dm, Am (still working on how long they'll last)

you always felt safer, at a place that gave you just enough rope

C, G (same as above) both together will be 4 bars

love unconditional to you, is just a joke


and that's it so far. i've had the same problem as before, completing a third verse. i know i want to talk about seeing a daughter i should have fathered, and seeing "monaco" act strong and tall. but i've been hitting a brick wall in regards to wording and fleshing out the third verse.

chuckobunny: maybe it doesn't require a third verse.

Same black clouds
Bring another early night
Drinking the last of the cooking wine
Seems all right

Cause it's Friday
Friday with the power going out
Yes it's Friday
Wood getting low and my baby outta town
Friday in the mountains
Swear I haven't seen the sun
since last July

Well, April showers bring lots more than promises of May flowers
April showers, on a Friday, bring the blues

i've been working on it, i just need to fine tune the wording of it. i hear ya on the maybe no third verse, sometimes i don't put one in. it's just that the story is longer than 2 verses, but then again, i might not want to extend the story that long...i guess we'll see.

here's another one i wrote last night.

forget the others, i never cared much for them
they have a hard time seeing what's in front of them
if it doesn't fit inside their little guilded box
then it's not so easy to forget, and it means too much

there's 2 sides to every coin, gotta take the good with the bad
don't let go of yourself just to entertain a fad
so if you want to judge me by the marks upon my skin
then you're missing the point, not once, but once again

(chorus)
you're searching out a prize you'll never win
you're seeking the shelter of an empty friend
and you'll always come up short
with people who fight a holy war

there's not much i can do from my cave casting light on the wall
the shadows and flicker, then eventually fall
....

same problem, finishing the third verse...

A little girl with onyx eyes puts her tiny hand in mine and smiles a suffering into my soul
I see her clear and infinite beautiful child, she disappears into my longing my heart
While Monaco is super-starring, super hero, castle wrecking, diving crazy strong into the sea
And seagulls plot their salty course and freckles look like constellations...(blah blah blah, brush it up)

there's not much i can do from my cave, wicks casting light on the wall
the shadows dance and flicker, then eventually fall
In darkness we light these candles, ask a blessing and forgiveness
while the shadows grow, extinguishing the light, still you don't see me

or sumpin' like that. Hack A. Way

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chuckocaster

forget the others, i never cared much for them

---

I love that line :yay

damn annie, that's some fucking awesome ass word smithing. no joke, no lie. :dude shoot me an email, maybe we can work on some of this stuff.

thanks moonie. a friend of mine and i are going to do an album when comes home from up the river called "the others". it's a whole philosophy we have, and it was weird to find someone else that refers to "them" in the same way, and have it be the same people and idea...

Thanks, amigo. I'll drop you a line.

Here's a "ba dump ta dum, ta dum, ta dum" thought:

"She's slithers up beside him and says
Baby what you want, what you need, what you got?"

monaco (reworked)

monaco, you promised to be my friend
then i watched you fold just like a chianese fan
when you told me you loved me i thought it was real
but you just had me under your spell

i watched the waves slowly roll up and drag your castle into the sea
the only ones laughing were the seagulls and me
so i laid my finger on your cheek and watched your freckles sparkle like the sand
the beauty of watching things come undone you'll never understand

you always felt safer in a place that gave you just enough rope
sometimes i wish you would change, so i could give you hope

i saw you that day in the store, then he saw me too
so i laid his mouth open, for the things he did to you
that's when i saw your little girl staring up with big eyes
i wish i could kill my feelings, and just tell lies
and one day you'll have to explain why i acted so that day
about the love we once had, and why you didn't stay