Obama's here!!

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Originally Posted by redb

That is assuming that the founding fathers were 100% correct and it is always in our best interest to follow their advice.

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They could not foresee the need for the FDA or regulating interstate commerce, transportation or the stock market. There are some things the federal government is uniquely positioned to handle. Most of what they do does not fall into that category. I believe the federal government could be 30% of it's current size and do all we require. Anything not done at the federal level could be done locally if the people were willing to fund those things. Right now we have very little to say about what the federal government spends our money on. We (the people) need more control of our government and big government makes that impossible........Bill

Of course the Founders were not 100% correct. They were human and fallable. That's why there's a mechanism for changing the Constitution. The mechanism is deliberately slow and requires a lot of consensus to do so.

Obviously, that's been thrown out the freaking window.


I believe it makes a HUGE difference what size the government is.

More government = less freedom. What's confusing about that? The more taxes gathered, the less choices people can make for themselves. The more some government operation crowds out and destroys private enterprise, the less choices people can make.

Personally, I don't want to live as a ward of the state, where my "bounty" is doled out according to what some politician thinks is appropriate for me.

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Originally Posted by curtisstetka

Of course the Founders were not 100% correct. They were human and fallable. That's why there's a mechanism for changing the Constitution. The mechanism is deliberately slow and requires a lot of consensus to do so.

Obviously, that's been thrown out the freaking window.


I believe it makes a HUGE difference what size the government is.

More government = less freedom. What's confusing about that? The more taxes gathered, the less choices people can make for themselves. The more some government operation crowds out and destroys private enterprise, the less choices people can make.

Personally, I don't want to live as a ward of the state, where my "bounty" is doled out according to what some politician thinks is appropriate for me.

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A-FREAKIN'-MEN!!!

+1000!!!

I do not think it is so cut and dry to say smaller government is necesarrily better. The argument between public and private is complicated and I think both sides have valid arguments but I will point out that I feel that this country has a long way to go before we are really in the realm of big government.

And most swedes and finns and dutch dont have a problem with their governments which are HUGE relative to ours. And most of them feel their nations are a lot more free than america. Whether they are right or not is not my concern, nor an issue I want people to get angry about. Im just saying that there are a lot of people who feel free living in a country with 70% income taxes on the highest income levels.

If you want to be a socialist you should move to a socialist country like Sweden where you can be taken care of. Then you'll see why they have such a high alcoholism rate - they are very unmotivated.

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Originally Posted by Gris

If you want to be a socialist you should move to a socialist country like Sweden where you can be taken care of. Then you'll see why they have such a high alcoholism rate - they are very unmotivated.

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I didnt say they were right, just that they felt that way. Its not fair to say that they are just wrong about the way they feel just because its not the same way we think. Especially when they feel the same thing about us.

Korea is nearly twice as productive per work hour and they have nationalized health care.

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Originally Posted by redb

I didnt say they were right, just that they felt that way.

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Maybe they feel as powerless as some of us do because the government is so large they have little to say about anything.

One other thing the founding fathers said when they created the government is that it is our duty to change to a new system of government if the one we have no longer works. I feel were there now and it should be dismantled and rebuilt in the image of the original design. Of course if I got serious about doing that, they'd throw me in jail for treason.......Bill

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redb

I didnt say they were right, just that they felt that way. Its not fair to say that they are just wrong about the way they feel just because its not the same way we think. Especially when they feel the same thing about us.

Korea is nearly twice as productive per work hour and they have nationalized health care.

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I NEVER said they were wrong in their thoughts. Please don't put words in my mouth that aren't there. I just said YOU should go live there since you seem to be pushing socialism. This country was not created in the scheme of socialism - quite the contrary.

BTW - I am all in favor of national health care. You're wrong again about me there. See what happens when you ASS-ume things.

I rarely comment on politics.

Here's my little take,
it's far worse than politicians.
And this is one of the "behind the scenes tin foil hat scenarios" that inevitably takes place:
Big Government breeds entrenched bearuecrats <sp> that are unaccountable, unelectable, and make rules that become law by no legislation! That is the worst, ugliest aspect of big government. Nixon created many of these alphabet soup agencies, and it has grown exponentially ever since.
(He wasn't the first, by any means...FDR paved the way!).

Oh,and for the most part, kill the lobbyists.

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Originally Posted by Cygnus X1

Oh,and for the most part, kill the lobbyists.

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If you took most of the functions of the federal government out of their hands and passed them to the local level, lobbyists would have a very hard time influencing policy and legislation.........Bill

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Originally Posted by Gris

I NEVER said they were wrong in their thoughts. Please don't put words in my mouth that aren't there. I just said YOU should go live there since you seem to be pushing socialism. This country was not created in the scheme of socialism - quite the contrary.

BTW - I am all in favor of national health care. You're wrong again about me there. See what happens when you ASS-ume things.

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First of all your ASS-ume thing is lame. Everyone knows assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME D: (I mainly meant to say that I didnt agree with them, looking back at what I wrote I can see why you would take it that way, my apologies.)

And I really take offense to that bolded remark. This is my country just as much as it is yours, if I want it to be socialist then I am free to vote for it to be so. With >75% of my generation going to college, it may turn into that, and then you will be free to leave.
Im sure people said "this is america, get out if you dont like it" to the former slaves who didnt like that they couldnt vote because of grandfather clauses. People said the same thing to people who looked at the patriot act with skepticism.

The founding fathers envisioned a country where religion had no influence, yet I dont see gay marraige because religious groups (especially the mormons with the recent prop 8 thing) overwhelmingly dont want it.

You're right, Kap'n. Bokonon. I had forgotten my Vonnegut.

The big trouble with American politics today (besides all the rancor) is that any elected national official has to spend about 60% of the time raising money. That's what they do all day.
And you know what that leads to -- a lot of whoring out to big-money interests.
I felt that this is just what happened over the last 12 years.
A lot of the crises we've got now are because some cutie-pies got in there and changed the laws and various policies. Sub-prime mortgages? All the brokerage laws?
Even the oil crisis -- that little event that wiped out Detroit in one summer -- was not owed to oil shortages. It was because of anonymous brokerage houses betting on oil futures. Again, thanks to "little tweaks" in the laws.

I like Obama. I'm glad my kids finally get to hear a president who sounds intelligent. I haven't heard too many of them in my lifetime.

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Originally Posted by redb

And I really take offense to that bolded remark. This is my country just as much as it is yours, if I want it to be socialist then I am free to vote for it to be so. With >75% of my generation going to college, it may turn into that, and then you will be free to leave. Im sure people said "this is america, get out if you dont like it" to the former slaves who didnt like that they couldnt vote because of grandfather clauses. People said the same thing to people who looked at the patriot act with skepticism. The founding fathers envisioned a country where religion had no influence, yet I dont see gay marraige because religious groups (especially the mormons with the recent prop 8 thing) overwhelmingly dont want it.

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WRONG on all counts, again. Under your desired big government nation, it's a lot more mine since I'm sure I've paid a few hundred grand in taxes more than you, LOL. BTW, I have three college degrees, including a doctorate - but, I didn't any of them to figure out that socialism is not the way. If you are lucky enough top raise some kids you will figure that one out! Again wrong, I despise the 'Patriot' Act. Over-the-top wrong (and offensive) comparing yourself to a slave. Badly wrong, yet again, thinking that gay rights were defeated on account of religious interests (there weren't enough of them to do it - it took the black vote to kill it). Wrong again, prospectively, if you assume I am anti-gay rights or believe religion has any place in politics. Basically, you are just wrong, wrong, wrong all the time because you are very young and do think before opening mouth and inserting foot. Live a few more decades then get back to us with, hopefully, some wisdom... ;-)

:-)

In order to avoid issues I will simply quote simon & garfunkel:

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Originally Posted by the boxer

A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest

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I will still say though, that age clearly has no correspondance to intelligence, maturity, or reading comprehension. I think George W. Bush and Sarah Palin prove that point beyond any shadow of a doubt.

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Originally Posted by redb

I will still say though, that age clearly has no correspondance to intelligence, maturity, or reading comprehension. I think George W. Bush and Sarah Palin prove that point beyond any shadow of a doubt.

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Well, that's the dumbest thing you've said yet. One or two examples or exceptions don't prove anything. Tis mathematically, or rather statistically, unsupportable. You have taken statistics, no? You do understand the concept of sample size, no? You are so illogical it's humorous. Everyone (except you) knows experience is invaluable. Next thing you will be telling us you are more qualified to fly a jetliner than the experienced pilot, because you read a book on it. The only thing that is not funny is how disrespectful you are to others, including those who have lived three times as long and know a hundred times more than you about life, as well as those who have served this country and lost family members in service to preserve a free, not socialist or communist country.

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Originally Posted by Gris

Well, that's the dumbest thing you've said yet. One or two examples or exceptions don't prove anything. Tis mathematically, or rather statistically, unsupportable. You have taken statistics, no? You do understand the concept of sample size, no? You are so illogical it's humorous. Everyone (except you) knows experience is invaluable. Next thing you will be telling us you are more qualified to fly a jetliner than the experienced pilot, because you read a book on it. The only thing that is not funny is how disrespectful you are to others, including those who have lived three times as long and know a hundred times more than you about life, as well as those who have served this country and lost family members in service to preserve a free, not socialist or communist country.

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learn to take a joke.

and get some hooked on phonics, your reading comprehension is EPICLY horrible.

p.s. I may be an ass, but youre old.

No, wrong again (I've lost count of how many times you've been wrong). I scored off the charts on reading speed and comprehension, as well logic. IIRC I got one of the highest scores on record on the LSAT (if you know what that is). FWIW, it involves digesting and analyzing massive amounts of print under severe time constraints. Are you ever right?

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Originally Posted by Gris

No, wrong again (I've lost count of how many times you've been wrong). I scored off the charts on reading speed and comprehension, as well logic. IIRC I got one of the highest scores on record on the LSAT (if you know what that is). FWIW, it involves digesting and analyzing massive amounts of print under severe time constraints. Are you ever right?

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Im not impressed by your internet character's fictional accomplishments. I probably wouldnt believe you even if you had shown in this thread a simple ability to read and glean information from text. You are a joke, "sir", you are ridiculous, "sir", you need to get a life, "sir", but most of all, you need to learn how to fucking read.

At least a child is aware of his/her lack of mental development.

You are truely, unquestionably - not trolling, joking or exaggerating - a person whom I would NEVER consider the words of to be worth listening too.


In other words, words that you may actually understand, you are a fool. An old man whose brain has finally given up on trying to muster any real intelligent thought.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Wellposter.jpg

lol!!! No, it won't.
redb, this seems to be the second conflict you've been involved in here today. I'm going to recommend some anbesol & a nap. If you are still fussy later on then we're going to have to consider some time out.

Personally, I think you guys are way too hard on redb. I may have to step in on the big government vs small government debate. Quite a few of you are saying that big government = less freedom but that is far too simplistic. Obama said in his inaugural address that it was a question of what worked in what situation, and not a question of big vs little. I couldn't agree more and the best example is the question of public health care. The US has one of the expensive and least universally available systems in the world. Most Canadians find it hard to believe that the US DOESN'T have some sort of universal medical care. In any case, universal health care has all sorts of benefits and doesn't erode freedom. On the contrary, it helps to guarantee a certain level of personal security without which there can't be much freedom anyway.

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Originally Posted by redb

I think the size of government is an overblown issue. As long as individual citizens are well off and free to do as the please within reason (so, no shooting your neighbors, giving booze to 12 year olds, selling meth, that sort of thing, but definately NOT saying people cant get abortions, do stem cell research, smoke in their own damn homes, buy a gun)

...

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The size of government has nothing to do with the enforcement of law. Personally, I think abortion should be illegal. Whether or not you agree is another question, but I don't think it has to do with the size of government any more than enforcing a law against shooting your neighbours.

This will probably start another round of heated debate, but what the hell, Canada is cold in February. Bring it on!

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Originally Posted by 71818

lol!!! No, it won't.
redb, this seems to be the second conflict you've been involved in here today. I'm going to recommend some anbesol & a nap. If you are still fussy later on then we're going to have to consider some time out.

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Thats fine. I would just like you to consider this:

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Originally Posted by redb

I do not think it is so cut and dry to say smaller government is necesarrily better. The argument between public and private is complicated and I think both sides have valid arguments but I will point out that I feel that this country has a long way to go before we are really in the realm of big government.

And most swedes and finns and dutch dont have a problem with their governments which are HUGE relative to ours. And most of them feel their nations are a lot more free than america. Whether they are right or not is not my concern, nor an issue I want people to get angry about. Im just saying that there are a lot of people who feel free living in a country with 70% income taxes on the highest income levels.

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was immediately followed by

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gris

If you want to be a socialist you should move to a socialist country like Sweden where you can be taken care of.

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To me, that is a VERY innapropriate comment. He just told me to get out of america because of the way I think the government should be run! Remember what phantomman said?

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Originally Posted by phantomman

So oh most weisened of heimers......tell us mere phillistines about the last time you spent a thousand yankee dollahs on a single-item purchase, what that item was, and how did it perform on your grueling tour schedule.

Pics would be heppful, an' no -- your skateboard, glow-in-the-dark Nikes, an' XBot do not count.

You crack me up!

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Twice in the last 24 hours I have had forum members make what I consider to be very mean spirited comments, completely unwarranted. I really will try to keep it down, but please understand that Im not looking to pick a fight with forum members. I just want there to be an understanding that I dont come here to be insulted.

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Originally Posted by Doc W

In any case, universal health care has all sorts of benefits and doesn't erode freedom.

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Au contraire, Doc.

You might explain the benefits (an' costs) of Canada's "GST", and its impact on goods an' services produced or sourced there. As well, it seems a bit incongruous in the 21st century that a Canadian would be forced to wait as long as two years for routine diagnostic tests that generally take a month to schedule and perform here in the US. While you're at it, it might interest you to know that there are more MRI scanners in the city of Philadelphia than there are in your entire country.

You guys got a great health-care system up there......as long as you don't git sick.

Edit-Nevermind. Phew.

This thread has taught me one thing -- never report that the president is visiting your area.............Bill

Redb, once again you change my words around. I never said 'get out of America,' I only said you should move there if you like socialism so much. YOU have a bad habit of making inaccurate statements then name calling when someone calls you on it. I haven't attacked you personally once, only pointed out how wrong you are on your 'facts.' You seem to take great pride in insulting people without any basis. Nothing I have said is fictional. I put myself through college on an athletic scholarship and made the Dean's list while getting a dual degree in finance and economics. I put myself through grad school by working three jobs while raising a family. I KNOW from a lifetime of experience that hard work matters, at least when you are in a non socialist country...

Guys... This thread was going pretty well for a while, but now it's going off the tracks. Let's try to refrain from the personal attacks. I don't care who started it, just don't. Both sides until recently, had presented facts and opinions without getting personal. Debate is good. Different visions are fine. Attacking each other is not. Please stop so that we can continue with honest debate. Calling names does not make your point stronger.

Regards,
Flintpunk (Al)

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Originally Posted by cwilliamrose

This thread has taught me one thing -- never report that the president is visiting your area.............Bill

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:laughing: Maybe if you hadn't used his surname or used two exclamation points...
It kinda' made it look like you were happy, and respected him.

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Originally Posted by NeoFauve

:laughing: Maybe if you hadn't used his surname or used two exclamation points...
It kinda' made it look like you were happy, and respected him.

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That, or he was doing a 'Paul Revere'. "Obama is coming, Obama is coming!"

:laughing:

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Originally Posted by NeoFauve

:laughing: Maybe if you hadn't used his surname or used two exclamation points...
It kinda' made it look like you were happy, and respected him.

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Yeah, it was an attempt at appearing to be overly excited.

It's not that I don't respect him, he's a very sharp guy and he may do good things. Until he does something and I see the results I'll reserve judgment. If the spending spree fails in the long term, which I suspect it will,,,,,,,

........Bill

But you can't blame that on him. Bush/Paulson did an even less accountable one and any president would do the same - for political purposes if nothing else. Can't appear to be doing nothing... ;-)

Bush did a lousy job so I'd rather not use his administration as the benchmark.

The new stimulus package may have some short term benefit. Will that benefit be a lasting one? That's my question. I'd much rather see the feds downside themselves and take away the tax burden. Another way to put is; Put government workers on the street and get the private sector jobs back. The government produces nothing, the private sector is where the products come from. That would be a good trade-off to me.............Bill

Speaking of Budokan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMYIB...ext=1&index=38
:hi:

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Originally Posted by Gris

Redb, once again you change my words around. I never said 'get out of America,' I only said you should move there if you like socialism so much.

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If you will offer a serious answer; why should I have to move to live in a country that matches my ideals? If I wish to live in a socialist nation, why should I have to move? Why can't I just vote to make this country more socialist if that is what I desire?


Your behavior is in line with a philosophy that essentially boils down to "my way or the highway". I dont know if thats you - and how could I? - but thats what I see.

Oh, and cwill, the stimilus bill and fed action will not help in the long run. The government knows that, the idea is the same as put someone on bypass, its a temporary solution, if they cant get the heart to start back up, there is no long term solution. Long run fixes require fundamental changes in the way our economy is structured.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redb

If you will offer a serious answer; why should I have to move to live in a country that matches my ideals? If I wish to live in a socialist nation, why should I have to move? Why can't I just vote to make this country more socialist if that is what I desire?

Your behavior is in line with a philosophy that essentially boils down to "my way or the highway". I dont know if thats you - and how could I? - but thats what I see

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Serious answer = because MANY people (including some close family members of mine) have made the ultimate sacrifice and given their very LIVES to preserve a way of life that overtly rejects socialism. This country as a governmental entity only exists because some brave people did not want government telling them what to do. It is not MY way, it is this country's very fabric that rejects socialism. You will not see it here in your lifetime. Ergo, if you want it you will have to move.

ps - FWIW, I am far from what the current mob calls a 'conservative.' In fact, I am what most would label a 'liberal,' though I don't see it that way and abhor labels. I believe in individual rights, which in my way of looking at things requires less government, though I do believe in some form of universal health care.

Adam Smith Capitalist Economics don't really work either so what do you suggest.
Jerry

See the original poster's post #61.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gris

Serious answer = because MANY people (including some close family members of mine) have made the ultimate sacrifice and given their very LIVES to preserve a way of life that overtly rejects socialism. This country as a governmental entity only exists because some brave people did not want government telling them what to do. It is not MY way, it is this country's very fabric that rejects socialism. You will not see it here in your lifetime. Ergo, if you want it you will have to move.

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Im afraid we have some fundamental differences in our perspectives, and these are the sort of things that can never truely be worked out, especially over the internet. I will simply say how I see things and we will just have to agree that to us, our views are right, and that the other is wrong, and thats really all that can be done.

I think those people died for freedom. That freedom means that people are free to give up their rights any time they chose.

All I hope to see in my lifetime is a country where each person starts with equal footing and succeeds or fails based on themselves. That is, however, not what these two eyes have seen from "the market".

Post 61 does not address the failure of our current economic problems. In a changing world what once appeared to work is now an obvious failure. That is why the majority of the population voted for change.
Jerry

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Originally Posted by thegeezer

Post 61 does not address the failure of our current economic problems. In a changing world what once appeared to work is now an obvious failure. That is why the majority of the population voted for change.

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http://www.tjadamowicz.com/img/bumper.jpg

:D

I dunno. The Repubs are all about curtailing personal freedoms based upon their own brand of 'morality.'


For a political party that touts less government they sure do like to spend taxpayers' money to keep some people from being themselves. In fact, trying to outrage people with what should be, at best, secondary issues (like gay marriage, abortion, etc) simply shows that they have no answers for the primary and important issues such as the economy, the Middle East, crumbling U.S. infrastructure, unchecked corporate greed, etc.

"We can't fix A so we'll outrage 'em with B."

+1

Nothing in that pic that says anything Republicans. Could have been a Libertarian, Constitutionalist, Anti-Federalist, etc.

There isn't one group that has a monopoly on infinite wisdom and logic to dictate what should be more important and how to prioritize issues that people feel strongly about. Why is one person's feelings less important than another's? Why should the economy and the Middle East and such be the most important issues to tackle first? Why are such things classified as 'secondary issues', when many voting citizens actually believe that they're primary issues? (rhetorical questions for the sake of discussion, nothing personal meant by it).

BTW, that's not my car...I believe it was taken in Florida. I just find it funny. :D

It outlines the modern GOP 'attack' on 'those liberals' who are, apparently, frothing at the mouth to take away your guns, rape your checkbook and who are weak on national defense.

Classic Republiscam attack propaganda whether they take 'credit' for it or not.

Don't get me wrong; the Dumbocreeps do the same types of things as well (e.g. "McSame" despite the fact that McCain and Bush so clearly despise each other).

Both parties are controlled by idealogues and that is the problem. To win a nomination you have to poison and abandon the center and play nice with the right/left wing whack jobs. Then, in the general election, everyone makes a run for centrist positions while their own words uttered in primaries (again, stated to placate the party nutballs) are used against them by the opponent. It's political folly and most people aren't clever enough to understand this.

To the detriment of our National Unity, unfortunately...

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Originally Posted by flintpunk

Guys... This thread was going pretty well for a while, but now it's going off the tracks. Let's try to refrain from the personal attacks. I don't care who started it, just don't. Both sides until recently, had presented facts and opinions without getting personal. Debate is good. Different visions are fine. Attacking each other is not. Please stop so that we can continue with honest debate. Calling names does not make your point stronger.

Regards,
Flintpunk (Al)

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Hey Al,
you are starting to sound like a moderator!

When President Bush remained solidified in his chair of purposes in the Ovalish Office....many things were possiblistic. The integritisitic natures of his forthgoing intensions were of monumentues meanings to peoples everywhere on the Earth globe.

http://www.q-bo.com/Images/DumbBush3.jpg

To think that I voted for him. :bawl

If anyone is thinking there's an answer in what the Democrats or Republicans are offering I believe you'll live your entire life being very disappointed. Until there's at least one more electable choice, this country will continue to be dragged in the wrong direction -- a direction that changes very little based on which party gains the advantage.

I have a question for those with a background in economics. Is there an economic model that considers a government that puts a large tax burden on the population and returns very little to those people for their money?

I could actually get behind socialized medicine if we had an efficient system of government. It should be much better than the split approach we're using now.

Cutting taxes to nil is NOT the answer nor is raising them to the ceiling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

Is the role of government to extract as much tax money as possible from the economy?? That is not the same thing as minimizing the tax burden to allow the economy to flourish. The government needs to shrink, not grow as large as posible just short of killing it's host.....Bill

But shrink WHAT parts of the Gov't? To state that 'less is more' fails to take into account many critical variables. Lack of oversite is one reason we're in the mess we're in now. LESS oversite is the answer?

I don't think so. Then again, advocating more oversite is to increase the size of the Gov't and nobody get less for the dollar than the Gov't.

Shrink the lobbyists! Start becoming an objective group brought together to take care of the business of the infrastructure that serves all of our citizens. Maybe!

One need only study the law and history of the Supreme Court to see where National gvt serves a need and vice versa. Clearly it is a balancing act. Anti-trust laws are needed, enviro reg is needed, national defense is needed, etc.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at Redb's suggestion that we are free to vote our freedom away. Doesn't matter I guess, since that is not a real world issue, only an argument for argument's sake...

Lobbyists are paid by groups of citizens in order to influence a local political representative. They can be paid by corporations as well as non-profit orgs.

WHICH lobbyists? And how can you legally limit the access to our elected officials? Isn't that unconstitutional?


Just demonstrating how none of this can be solved with simple actions which is why blaming 'this mess' on the 'other side' is ignorant.

The wiifm's - The gimme -gimme- gimme's -The take care of me's - The You owe me's is our problem. When it is more profitable to "work the system" than it is to actually work, we will always be in this situation. Nix the entitlement programs and our kids and grandkids won't be burdened with this mess.

Entitlements? Would you include those who 'game' the current tax codes and pay nothing? How about the super wealthy who employ lobbyists to influence politicians to write the tax laws in their favor?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hudpucker

But shrink WHAT parts of the Gov't?

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Those things which do not require management on a national scale. That includes the majority of the federal government's current programs and expenditures. As I stated in another post, 30% of current size is a good target number. Local governments would pick up the programs that have value to it's citizens, the rest would go away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hudpucker

lobbyists to influence politicians

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as I said, "when it is more profitable to work the system than actually work....."