the real truth about mexican pickups

Now that we're back onto MIM pups may I ask a few questions?

I'm no tech expert in guitars, hell I know very little on the tech used for guitars. From what I remember from my youth days when I look a bit into pups, every pole piece was made of magnetic material and then you had a coil around them.

When I bought my MIM in 2001, the pups that were in there (the 2 singles, I have a HSS Strat) had 2 little magnetic bars and the pole pieces were made of regular metal. (they were not magnetic)

Now, I don't really know but too me this is not the ideal pup setup, is it?
According the tech at the reseller I got my Strat from, this was where Fender cut corners to lower the price of their MIM guitars. (and most likely the rest of the electronics too)

Can somebody tell me if these original pups I had are standard pups config or were they really a cheap alternative?

OA- Imperfections and problems are in my fingers! :D

Sounds like ceramic magnets which are cheaper than alnico to make.

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Originally Posted by NeoFauve

OA- Imperfections and problems are in my fingers! :D

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He, he! Last job we did my pedalboard got soaked, and my Suck button must've broke, cause I played pretty good!

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Originally Posted by cross

whole lotta stuff to read here...

secong example:
got myself a faded SG. Swapped pups for mod fun to 4 conductors to get the buckers splitted 'cos I always thought SGs were capable of more sounds than most players use her for. Greatest idea ever for me! Two simple coil taps and I can get a least 10 times more sounds out of her sometimes even Stratlike to a certain extend... I loved the mod so much I'm considering a Jimmy Page wiring mod. my question: where to get a SG like that?

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This always amuses me. I have had guitars with split coils in the past and for the life of me, I have never found a use for that sound. In fact no one I know has ever used that split coild sound. They all have it, but no one uses it. At least on a gig anyway. No offense man, but your post made me think about this. I don't know anyone who actually uses that sound. Crazy.

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Originally Posted by Marcondo

Sounds like ceramic magnets which are cheaper than alnico to make.

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So, if I understand correctly, ceramic pups are made of 2 strips of magnetic metal and the pole pieces are of regular metal (which is the ceramic part?)
And AlniCO pups are made with magnetic pole pieces.

This might be simplistic to the max but am I in the right direction?

"Ceramic" and "Alnico" are two different types of magnets.


Alnico is an alloy of three metals, Aluminum, Nickel and Cobalt, hence the name. Nickel and Cobalt being two of the three magnetic elements. Iron would be the third. Alnico has the advantage of being relaitvely lightweight fo a given magnetic strength. Another property Alnico has is that it can be temporarily demagentized by strong magnetic fields, but snaps back. This is important for speakers, because it results in some of the compression you hear with an alnico speaker. I'm sure CK could tell you more about its application in pickups. Alnico magnets can only be made in a few shapes. Nickel and cobalt are relatively expensive metals.

Ceramic magnets are made with magnetic particles (iron?) suspended it a matrix of, you guessed it, ceramic. Because it's ceramic, it can be molded into any number of shapes, and is inexpensive to produce. Because it's inexpensive, and more stable in application than Alnico, it replaced Alnico for many applications.

mercy! all these replies and no answers. i am not asking what is "better" just what is? if mr. kinman is as confused as i am then i should not me suprised this thread ending up being the slow boat to china so to speak.

Fender doesnt release any specs on the MIM pickups because they dont sell them seperatly. I can get you dc resistance hernies and magnet type and wire used on the 57/62ri CS69 Fat 50's Nocaster and a few others which specs are published but they dont tell anything about the MIM versions.

Kap'n, cool info, thanks.
That cleared up the ALniCo vs ceramic dlilema.

But what about the actual construction of the pup (single coil)?
I gather that the pole pieces are to be the magnetized parts and, according your explaination, they are to be either ceramic or ALniCO.
(Damn I'm bright, hey? :D )

Just about every pups I've seen (not that many actually) were made with the pole pieces being magnetized and the wiring coiled around them.
On the ones that came with my MIM HSS Strat, they were made differently.
The pole pieces were not of magnetized material. Only the two metal bars on each sides were. The coil was below the bars.

I'm just wondering if these original pups were normal quality pups or if they were of the cheapest quality to reduce the cost of the guitar.

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Originally Posted by thetallcoolone

But what about the actual construction of the pup (single coil)?
I gather that the pole pieces are to be the magnetized parts and, according your explaination, they are to be either ceramic or ALniCO..

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Virtually no ceramic pickups exist, where the magnets themselves are inside the coil. I think the sole excetion to that is the old Fender/Seth Lover humbucker.

On a typical Fender single coil, the rods are actual magnets. Strictly speaking, they're not "pole pieces." I believe a pole piece is a non-magnetic piece of steel 'loaded' by a magnet.

Cheaper Fender-style pickups have steel polepieces, loaded by a ceramic bar magnet on the bottom.

On a traditional humbucker, there's a single bar magnet that loads both rows of polepieces, one side north, the other south. That bar magnet is either ceramic or alnico.

P-90's have true pole pieces, and are loaded by two bar magnets, either alnico or ceramic.

you guys might :bonk for asking this. But
Why is it Fender and Gibson pickups have the most after market pickup clones? Why hasn't there been any drastically new desighns?
I have a 1959 Harmony Stratotone jupiter. That I find sounds better then even my gibson sometimes. Why aren't cool guitars like this not modernised into new equally cool guitars?
My friend once told me you will know the differnce of sound quality through a good amp. IF your using a cheapo 15w A gibson gonna sound the same as a squier. I belive he's right, I couldn't tell the differnce till I got my hrdx. Now when I plug cheaper guitars I notice the differnce right away (maybe i have trained my ear?)
and one last point i have to make (thats if your still bothering to read this haha) Harmony Guitars in the 1960's had more orders then they could fill. they had 2 options to build a bigger plant, or outsource there guitars. They choice to outsource to Japan. They essencially let the japanese into the americain market, and with in 5 years by the 70's the Japanese had put Harmony out of buisness. The factory closed people lost there jobs. I've noticed the prices on korean and chinese guitars creeping up slowly. So im saying whats the point of buying a koriean for 1000 bucks when you can support US for 1300 ang get a much nicer guitar

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Originally Posted by Tele-Bob

This always amuses me. I have had guitars with split coils in the past and for the life of me, I have never found a use for that sound. In fact no one I know has ever used that split coild sound. They all have it, but no one uses it.

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A split coil JB sounds decent in the bridge position, when it's mixed with the middle to get a bit of quack. Otherwise lame.

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Originally Posted by Constellation80

you guys might :bonk for asking this. But
Why is it Fender and Gibson pickups have the most after market pickup clones?

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Because 90+% of all electric guitars out there use Strat-style or Gibson humbucker style pickups. There's not a lot of market for, for example, a lipstick tube pickup designed to fit a Jaguar.

Back before the advent of the clones in the early-mid 70's, most guitar manufacturers used proprietary pickup designs. During the 70's, everybody wanted what the GUITAR HEROES used, hence the clones, and the universal design. Dimarzio comes out with the Super Distortion pickup, and the rest is history.

the reason is man is because people are so hooked on having a lester or tele or strat etc. it's an iconic status symbol. no offense to the LPF, but i can barely read it at times because of this.

there have been attempts at producing stuff like that, but it never really sells enough to make a big dent in the guitar buisness. sad to say cause a lot of that "junk" stuff is freakin awesome. i had a teisco with a microphone for a pup, and it freakin rocked. like no other tone i've heard. but do you think it's going to sell enough? not hardly.

that's really the reason i build and modify my guitars. because i cannot buy them like the way i want them. and if i ordered them from someone the price would be outrageous. people are scared of stuff that is "different". look in some history books at all the wars, deaths, persecutions, exiles, etc. they've all pretty much taken place because people were scared of differences. so sad to see.

i digress...

i swap pups for me, not the audience. granted it is always such a little change that most the time others can't tell the difference. but on my sg and jazzmaster, it made all the difference in the world. lesters and strats, whatever. i love those guitars, but they don't really excite me too much. i like the more "non standard" stuff.

and for pups, sorry to say but i do have a preference. and i know it when i hear it. and most of the time, it ain't with a standard off the machine winder. sorry, but i like the handbuilt stuff. it has character, and ain't as pretty lookin.

I lost track on where this thread was heading, but here's my personal take:

When I went shopping for a strat, I went through the shops ENTIRE stock. Took my own personal amp in for the final showdown between three that I thought knocked me out. Ending up buying a nice sunburst strat.

I was recording quiet a bit so I installed some EMG pups. I know, I'm a sucker for those things. I was also into a "humbucker in the neck" thing so it was kinda cool. Missed the strat sound I had heard when I bought the strat, so I went for a more traditional tone: the EMG-DG.

Nah, still not there. Plus I got tired of changing out the battery. I thought, hey, I like the Clapton strat sound. I bought a set of Lace pups and tried that for a while. Nope, still not there.

Then I heard of some nice things about the Tex Tone pups, if that's the right name. Hmm, not my thing.

Going through some boxes I find the original pups that where in the guitar. Blam! It was love at first strum. It was the sound that made me buy the guitar in the first place. I had my tech rewire the guard to reduce the hum (I don't know what he did to be frank). So there it was: the shitty Delta-Tone pups where the sland.

My point is that there are too many variances that make a guitar sing to you. Shitty pup might be PERFECT in that certain guitar. Who knows...

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Originally Posted by Tele-Bob

This always amuses me. I have had guitars with split coils in the past and for the life of me, I have never found a use for that sound. In fact no one I know has ever used that split coild sound. They all have it, but no one uses it. At least on a gig anyway. No offense man, but your post made me think about this. I don't know anyone who actually uses that sound. Crazy.

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well the point is.... I do use it. Don't know why I shouldn't it adds a whole lot of nouances to the tone. The neck bucker with the bridge split gives some more trebble shimmer etc... since I've those split options installed I haven't used the knobs on my amp or equipment as often as I used to. It's no 'REAL' SC sound no doubt but I love messing around with it 'cos I love finding new tone n don't care too much about 'The Tone Of My Heroes' like many do. 'Oh damn that doesn't sound vintage!' 'Nah that ain't like a Strat's supposed to sound.' whatever. I don't know how you guys think about it but certain tones inspires me to play different stuff as well as adjusting the tone to my favors n that's why I love versatile guitars+'senseless' gimmiks, good pots etc...
maby that will change when I get older and I just want a real simple sound... but who knows... I guess that's what everyone going through... :blbros

The Tex Mex p'ups that came in my, (are you sitting down?), $150, Fender 50th Anniversary, Tex Mex Strat sounded amazing at lower volume levels. But in a club they just didn't get it done. I had a set of Robert Cray Custom Shop p'ups that I dropped in and it transformed the guitar.

Cheap p'ups just don't sound that good when the volume gets loud. A great set of p'ups is judged on the sounds they pick up from the guitar. They should also be judged on some of the sounds that get left out. Crank up a Squier sometime, real loud, and you'll hear what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Tele-Bob

This always amuses me. I have had guitars with split coils in the past and for the life of me, I have never found a use for that sound. In fact no one I know has ever used that split coild sound. They all have it, but no one uses it. At least on a gig anyway. No offense man, but your post made me think about this. I don't know anyone who actually uses that sound. Crazy.

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TB, I have never had a use nor cared for that "split humbucker tone" either. Having said that, however, I have seen Robben Ford do some amazing things (and get some righteous tones) from a split coil equipped Baker (which was similar to his Fender signature model).

You could count the extremely rare cases on one hand where people have actually used that sound so some advantage, and most of those times were probably in the recording studio. :ahem
:ha!

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Originally Posted by Tele-Bob

The Tex Mex p'ups that came in my, (are you sitting down?), $150, Fender 50th Anniversary, Tex Mex Strat sounded amazing at lower volume levels. But in a club they just didn't get it done.

Cheap p'ups just don't sound that good when the volume gets loud.

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I'm pretty sure that Jimmie Vaughan has 'gotten it done' when playing strats with Tex Mex pups at stage volume.

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Originally Posted by Tele-Bob

You could count the extremely rare cases on one hand where people have actually used that sound so some advantage, and most of those times were probably in the recording studio.

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I know you're trying to help but, frankly, why don't you just simply state that YOU'VE never heard a split coil tone that YOU personally found appealing instead of erroneously assuming that your own personal experiences are indicative of some great tonal truism?

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Originally Posted by hudpucker

I'm pretty sure that Jimmie Vaughan has 'gotten it done' when playing strats with Tex Mex pups at stage volume.

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I don`t believe for a second, that JV plays a Mexican Strat on stage. If he does, its maybe for photot ops, but he doesn`t have to play one of those, so why would he??

CT.:ahem

hudpucker, I have a split coil on a Strat Clone on the bridge. If i'm in a studio enviorn, it MIGHT be usefull, but in all reality, in that situation I'd just opt for a true single coil guitar. Why compromise?

Now, on the split coil played live I have a real problem with usefulness. The pup balance is good with the two coils working, but if I split it, the output drops quite a noticeable bit. So I'd have to go jack up my rig to compensate. But in a live setting, that's not an option. So it doesn't work for me live, and recording it isn't necessary, so why even have it? The only time I've ever used it is on a gonzo solo where I switched it back and forth on a long sustain.

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Originally Posted by CocoTone

I don`t believe for a second, that JV plays a Mexican Strat on stage. If he does, its maybe for photot ops, but he doesn`t have to play one of those, so why would he??

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I don't mean to be flippant but that's irrelevant; Bob portrayed his statement as being objectively 'true' under all circumstances for all players so, in essence, he's saying that NO ONE can 'get it done' with Tex Mex pups under any circumstances. Logically speaking, he'd have to have heard ALL players who use Tex Mex pups live before he could make a definitive statement portrayable as fact. His statement is logically untenable.

Realistically, I'm sure that most people would agree with his sentiment (heck, I don't use cheap pups, either) but again, logically speaking, his statement is untenable.

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

hudpucker, I have a split coil on a Strat Clone on the bridge. If i'm in a studio enviorn, it MIGHT be usefull, but in all reality, in that situation I'd just opt for a true single coil guitar. Why compromise?

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Perhaps someone wants to use both tones live in one song without switching guitars and is willing to accept what tonal consequences there might be. They may even prefer the split coil tone in certain instances, too. Perhaps a particular pup exhibits real mojo (in the ears of that player) when split. Who are we to believe that we can envision all potential usages of any given tonality? Besides, Bob completely glossed over the fact that cross said that he (or she, I don't know) uses the split-coil tones and finds them useful.

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Originally Posted by Kap'n

A split coil JB sounds decent in the bridge position, when it's mixed with the middle to get a bit of quack. Otherwise lame.

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I definitely agree with the first half. The JB I put in my Fat Strat sounded fantastic with the the middle pickup for quack.

Also, my Godin LGX-SA had a Duncan Jazz II in the neck that sounded killer split--no huge volume drop (other than what you'd expect--one coil isn't as loud as two). I used that sound constantly when gigging that guitar and it was at times indistinguishable from the Tele I had then.

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Originally Posted by pc

I definitely agree with the first half. The JB I put in my Fat Strat sounded fantastic with the the middle pickup for quack.

Also, my Godin LGX-SA had a Duncan Jazz II in the neck that sounded killer split--no huge volume drop (other than what you'd expect--one coil isn't as loud as two). I used that sound constantly when gigging that guitar and it was at times indistinguishable from the Tele I had then.

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I used to have an older Godin Tele copy with splittable hotrail-type PU`s, and it sounded pretty,,,well souned like a Tele with the coils split. Nice axe it was. Godin make some nice stuff.

CT.:ahem

OK, I'll say this about changing pickups:

If one runs and the other doesn't, I drive the one that does.
I work on the one that doesn't, as time and motivation permits, so that when the one that does doesn't, I can change to the one that does.

I don't really do much pup swaps. I had an Electra 335 copy a while back that I bought to use as a tool and leave my 78 Ibanez Artist home, as it had recently been chewed to hell and back by a Cowboy Wannabe that I let sit in with his big as a sattelite dish belt buckle.

The Ibanez had DiMarzio Super Distortions in it when I bought it, and I was playing mostly country. I paid a tech to change the DiMarzios to Bartolinis, and thing worked pretty good. After I bought the Electra, I had another tech(the one I'm married to now) swap the Bartolinis into the 335 copy.

They just didn't work in that guitar,so we swapped the originals back in and I played that Electra as my main ax for about 10 years.


So, I just drive whichever pickup works.

YMMV

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Originally Posted by CocoTone

I don`t believe for a second, that JV plays a Mexican Strat on stage. If he does, its maybe for photot ops, but he doesn`t have to play one of those, so why would he??

CT.:ahem

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Well, why would he not? I haven't played the JV, but I've got a stock
MIM 60s Classic that I would be as comfortable doing a gig with as I would my 92 MIJ 50s Reissue or my 88 American Standard.


All that being said, my favorite Strat is the GritoCaster.
She's got Rio Grandes, but I swapped the whole pickguard assembly into the body as opposed to swapping pickups, like you freaks do.
I guess I change bodies more than I do pups.
And necks....I tend to change necks a lot.
I think it's because I never had my own Tinker Toys, Barbie Dolls or Legos as a child. Man, life's a bitch :bug

hudpucker, we sometimes cut a little slack and try to assume the best in eachother. If my comments came off as flippant, too bad. So I don't write "in my personal experience" before every single post, it should be assumed. I always try to be helpful wherever I can. You don't see me making a point of condeming someone elses comments unless thay are blatantly rude. If you don't like my opinion, tough shit. Don't read it. I get so tired of this crap.

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Originally Posted by Tele-Bob

I always try to be helpful wherever I can.

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so, do you think I'm doing the right thing by driving the one that works and working on the one that doesn't, or should I trade both of the pieces of shit for a Gremlin?

The Gremlin has some serious rust, but it's mostly on the frame where it's not noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Tele-Bob

hudpucker, we sometimes cut a little slack and try to assume the best in eachother. If my comments came off as flippant, too bad. So I don't write "in my personal experience" before every single post, it should be assumed. I always try to be helpful wherever I can. You don't see me making a point of condeming someone elses comments unless thay are blatantly rude. If you don't like my opinion, tough shit. Don't read it. I get so tired of this crap.

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Yes, you do try to be helpful but in doing so you step on a lot of toes while giving the 'tonal gospel according to Bob'...

In this thread alone you've stated that:

--rarely if ever can anyone get a 'good' live tone from Tex Mex pups. Never mind the fact that this is a logically untenable statement.

--split coil tones are useless except in ultra rare circumstances. Again, this is a logically indefensible statement.

AND you've glossed over input that directly contradicts your own statements (i.e. cross' post) thus disproving your initial stance.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion Bob and you've certainly offered some sage advice at times; BUT, as long as you continue to needlessly portray your opinions as being objective on something as subjective as tone, I will continue to call you on it.

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Originally Posted by moonpie

Well, why would he not? I haven't played the JV, but I've got a stock
MIM 60s Classic that I would be as comfortable doing a gig with as I would my 92 MIJ 50s Reissue or my 88 American Standard.

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You`ve got a point, and I don`t claim to know JV at all, but from watching him in concert, and articles I`ve read about him, and the way he plays, he strikes me as a traditionaist. Shit, look at the way he dresses. I just can`t see him using a Mex Strat, when he`s prolly got some dandy Vintage Starts, as well as anything the Custom shop wants to give him is all. I know what I`d rather play in his situation.

CT.:ahem

That explains my sore toe! It's Bob's fault.

Look, the proof is right in front of us. If split coils were the sland, we'd all be playing them. But very few of us do. So by my raw data, the vast majority of guitar players have rejected them, and have voted with their dollars.

Since guitar players spend millions upon millions to sound better, spend lots of time trying new gear and modding guitars, and split coils remain an oddity, they must not be very useful.

From my personal experience, as a working player, I have no use fot them. If they work for you, good, but you're an exception to the mainstream.

hey hud n bob. stop being so offending. it's all about gear n that's all about subjective favors... of course it doesn't make sense to say that split sound aren't usefull simply because of the fact that I'm(I guess this is realistic) a lot younger than bob(me being 20) and we grew up with different sounds or leaving that out we have different ways of seeing music. on hte other hand hud seems a bit picky which I can understand in a way as well...

n concerning angler n his compromise thingy... what if I simply don't search a compromise with a coil split... :kick

oops I'm typing too slow... whatever


the point bout the aftermarket pups is that there are de facto players out there that have to/ want to have a player that suits him and sound the way they like(though it might only be some nouances that mean a big deal to them...)

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

Look, the proof is right in front of us. If split coils were the sland, we'd all be playing them. But very few of us do. So by my raw data, the vast majority of guitar players have rejected them, and have voted with their dollars.

Since guitar players spend millions upon millions to sound better, spend lots of time trying new gear and modding guitars, and split coils remain an oddity, they must not be very useful.

From my personal experience, as a working player, I have no use fot them. If they work for you, good, but you're an exception to the mainstream.

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Actually, the proof is NOT right in front of us; this community of players is NOT indicative of the preferences of the mainstream when taken as a whole; we are an online community of just under 4,800 with an average age in the early-mid 40s. That certainly isn't the most common or dominant demographic when one looks at the population of guitar players in totality.
Now, if you restrict your comments to the TFF population only then the situation is altered drastically.

Split coils are no more an oddity than a distortion pedal or a B-bender; many manufacturers offer numerous models with OEM coil-splitting options and/or features.

When you say "From my personal experience, as a working player, I have no use fot them. If they work for you, good..." that is an entirely acceptable statement since you've acknowledged that while you don't prefer it that others, in fact, might. That is in direct contrast to Bob's statement that "You could count the extremely rare cases on one hand where people have actually used that sound so some advantage, and most of those times were probably in the recording studio." Extremely rare?
There have been 2 posters in this thread alone that have stated that they do currently or have at one time found split coil tones to be useful. Your statement is an opinion while Bob's is an opinion portrayed as fact. THAT'S the distinction I'm trying to highlight, frankly.

I truly don't mean to disrespect anyone and I don't mean to offend Bob personally as he is a well-liked and well-respected member of TFF but I do wish he would stop presenting his opinion as fact, especially when presented with evidence that runs contrary to his own opinions.

cross, how'd you get to be so sensible at 20? ;)

So, to sum up, frank52, "the real truth about mexican pickups" is that they're kind of a mystery, but they seem to make people talk about nearly anything BUT mexican pickups.

My advice to you, is get a Teisco. Nearly no one has any in depth experience with them. :bonk
Pure discovery, man!

Hope this helps,
NeoFauve

PS: Congrats on an action packed 3rd post! :D

:zzz

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Originally Posted by hudpucker

cross, how'd you get to be so sensible at 20? ;)

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I'm so special :rofl


whatever my TFF friends, isn't it all about that:


:band


:dude :blbros :smokin :glug :wav


called R&R?!

Every one has a right to their opinion. And in the land of emails and forums, the tone of a letter might be misinterpreted. I personally know that I have been wrong on many occasions, but the members of TFF have kindly and quickly corrected me. That doesn’t however stop me from posting, my ideas or opinions. Sometimes there great ideas, sometimes there way out in left field but you got to just take them with a pinch of salt. Heck LOL I think sometimes people just skip what I say entirely. Tele has every right to state what he thinks or feels about guitar or pickup. Just as much as me or a new guy to the forum. I myself personally highly regard Tele Bobs opinion
And have emailed him before on purchases. Because I feel he does know what he’s talking about. And he has the same taste as I do in gear.
If you disagree with someone on something, that’s what forums are about. You discuss it. State your opinions! And let people decide for themselves what’s right.
You got to put things to the test for yourself. Not once have a read on TFF any of the older members say well you know nothing, I have blah blah experience. Who are you to say this etc. I find them to be really respectful and helpful.

That being said Teiscos are JUNK ! LOLOLOL

Yeah, whatever. I don't know jack about guitar playing. My only experience is from TFF.



PS, Please by the new CD.

Geez, OA, what a bomb!
And I thought you were the PRO around here.

I'm so bummed now. :bummer

Well, if OSA is going to come forward, I guess I will too. I'm really 14 years old and live in Montana. Everything I pretend to know, I learned here. I play cello, and not very well.

Somehow, T-B, I tend to believe what you just posted! :D

You joke, you smoke, you taunt and you please,
Cause I'm the tall cool one and I'm built to please...

See, I can still remember the song!

How did you know where I got my nick from?

I've got friends in low places.

Damn!
I don't have any acquaintances in the low places, I'm too tall!

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Originally Posted by CocoTone

I don`t believe for a second, that JV plays a Mexican Strat on stage. CT.:ahem

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i saw it from 10 feet away...:cool:

Hate to break it to you folks, but anything that can't be quantified is subjective. Meaning it's always somebody's opinion, and never an absolute fact*. I'd hope most of you would have learned that by now.









*Unless of course, it's MY opinion, then it is absolute fact, and you will bend to my awesome power. :dude

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Originally Posted by CocoTone

I don`t believe for a second, that JV plays a Mexican Strat on stage. If he does, its maybe for photot ops, but he doesn`t have to play one of those, so why would he??

CT.:ahem

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When the JV sig guitars were first made they took 5 SB ones over to the Custom Shop they reliced them and set them up and thats what JV plays on stage his own Sig fenders Stock with the Tex Mex Pickups.

He does have other nicer Vintage guitars but doesnt use them onstage anymore.

Learn something new ever` day!!:wow


CT.:ahem

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Originally Posted by CocoTone

Learn something new ever` day!!:wow


CT.:ahem

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Yeah, me too.

Then I go to sleep at night and forget it all :slap

So, any conclusions made on the original question?
What is "the real truth about mexican pickups "?

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What is "the real truth about mexican pickups "?

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The real truth about Mexican p'ups has been addressed several times in this thread. Some of it is fact. Some of it is interpretation. But anything of any relevance or consequence seems to have been covered here not only by some knowledgeable people but also by experts in the field.

I've got Mexican pups on my MIM Standard. I bought the guitar because I liked the sound, and the way it played. There was another MIM STandard in the shop, exact same hardware, that didn't sound nearly so good. Mine had a rosewood fretboard, the other had maple. Was that the difference? I don't know. But I know the guitar I bought sounded very good, and the other one was pretty ordinary.

Interestingly, most of the more expensive USA models also sounded pretty ordinary, except for a 50th Anniversary that was three times the price of the MIM Standard, but, on balance, didn't quite like as much as the one I bought.

All of which makes me think that the difference in pups between the MIM and MIA is not so great that changing pups is going to turn a mediocre guitar into a great guitar, or vice versa. I've noticed that the MIM pups *sometimes* pick up hum in positions 1,3,5 (usually near my computer) but are absolutely quiet in "virtual humbucking" positions 2,4 in all situations. Which means for the moment that if I'm getting some interference, I've got two great sounding positions to choose from, rather than five. More than enough, so for the time being, it's no big deal. Eventually, I'll probably do the shielding thing, but I'm hardly going to mess with replacing the pups -- I bought the guitar because I like the sound!

OTOH, in my experience changing out really poor pups with some good ones can make the world of difference for some instruments. Recently I swapped out the original Ibanez pups on an old 1970s Ibanez Firebird copy, and replced them with a vintage Gibson minibucker from a 72 LP in the neck and a a new SD sm-2b in the bridge position. What a difference! That guitar is now a monster. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard it. Still can't. It's a keeper -- "cold steely hands" stuff.

To reconcile this with what I've said above about the Mex vs USA Strat pups, I can only conclude that the MIM pups are actually pretty good pups!

Finally, I've got a split-coil on my SG copy in the bridge position. I like it; it adds a extra sound for that guitar. If I'm playing live, I could play with or without the split. In a live situation, I doubt anyone but me would notice the difference, anyway. I like having the split (and lots of tonal colours to choose from my collection of guitars) mostly to please me when I'm playing for myself. Sometimes playing around with a new tone will make something old sound fresh again. You guys don't just play for other people, do you?

At the end of the day, if I wasn't playing to please myself, I wouldn't play at all. So my vote is split coils are cool. Vintage Gibson and new SDs are cool. MIM and MIA pups are cool. But, deep down, I do have my strong suspicions that almost no-one besides me is really going to notice the difference...

But that's cool too. :)

-Mark

Hey, I just remembered something. I have a rat guitar with a split bucker. It's an old Carvin Strat with no finish left on it. I mean, this guitar looks like it was dragged behind the bus for miles. So I rummaged around and pulled her out today.

Those Carvin pups are LOUD! And the split sound actually works. I mean it sounds like a SC when split. It's actually quite usable! More of a rock bent than the bluesey deal so popular here, but what a killer guitar. The alder is starting to dry out so I threw a coat of Butcher's wax on it. Weird. The stuff I have laying around my place...

I must, therefore, eat the crow before it gets cold.

i would just like to say that these arguments of that "i shouldn't sound the best i can because it doesn't makethat much of a difference in a band context" is complete bullshit. it does matter. maybe we take a verbose way to find "the sound", but that is a trip we all have to make. go ask any professional orchestra member or choral person. they work their hardest to make the best sound possible, period. that is their job. and i think we as musicians who play guitar should do the same thing. and if the other guys in your band aren't up to do this, then maybe you should walk. i'm not saying that we all should own super expensive booteek stuff. but let's be honest here, music is about tone and technique. let's not kid ourselves and think just a pup swap is going to change how we sound. but if you have your chops down, you may need to swap pups to put it over the edge. but that is not to say you should just play some crap guitar and amp. but then again, maybe that's your sound. so go for it. i think we really need to diversify what we sound like. i personally get tired reading about "stevie tone" and all that other stuff. figure out what you sound like and work with that. for some people that's stuff that's off the wall, for others, it's custom made stuff.

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Originally Posted by chuckocaster

go ask any professional orchestra member or choral person. they work their hardest to make the best sound possible, period. that is their job. and i think we as musicians who play guitar should do the same thing.

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When I start gigging in concert halls, with near perfect acoustics and an quietly seated audience intent on hearing every sonic nuance my guitar and amp are capable of producing, I'll think about it. In the meantime, if I'm playing in a noisy crowded bar, if the relative volumes of the instruments are OK, the overall volume is within range, and everyone's having a good time, I'm happy. :) (And I bet I could swap pups three times in the evening and no-one, apart from me, would be the wiser.)

-Mark

I'm with ya Chucko! I have spent a long time developing a few different sounds for specific applications. I have my rock rig, my blues rig, my clean rig, and my "ready for anything" rig.

I have devoted a lot of time and effort to coming up with guitar and amp combinations that work best for the situation I'm going to be playing in. That's why I have several guitars and amps.

I have to agree with Plugger on the point of "sounding good for yourself" too. Perhaps the answer is in marrying the two points. When I am producing a sound on my guitar that is very appropriate for the gig I'm playing, I find myself really diggin' the tone because it fits so well.

I have never sat down and tried to cop any other players tone or style. I like to just produce a good tone that is right for the situation.

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Originally Posted by chuckocaster

... but let's be honest here, music is about tone and technique.

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I gotta call bullshit here, chucko.

Tone and technique are tools - but music is about what you say and the attitude you bring it with. It's about delivering the message. Tone and techniques are embellishments.

The opening riff to Satisfaction is the same regardless whether it's played on a Les Paul into a cranked stack or a nylon stringed classical. Beetoven's 5th's opening is the same whether played by an orchestra or synthed out disco studio band.

Music is at it's heart, rythymic. R&R is purely about attitude. Listen to Rumble a few times.

Absolutely - good cruchy attack and a singing sustain allows you do say more, but without a competent musician playing the axe it means nothing.

The gear itself cannot create music. And in realty, most listeners (who aren't musicians so the demographic of this forum really doesn't count) listen at least as much with their eyes as their ears. You not only have to play it, you need to sell it.

When tone becomes the primary focus - you've lost the audience.

YMMV, but that's what the years have taught me.