The Sunday Thread for June 1, 2025

School is nearly out for the summer and folks are planning their vacations, the pools are open, and the summer storms have begun. We've been hit with some heavy rains and tornado warnings, so the evenings are still cool, but the days are getting warmer.

Last night I spent a wonderful evening with my family enjoying my granddaughter's dance recital. She's on a dance competition team, so last night was the event where all the teams could strut their stuff. I was quite impressed with the show, which lasted over two hours and featured over one hundred dancers. The finale was a jumble of moving bodies on the stage. Then, we went for dinner at Outback. I left for home about 10:20 and listened to baseball all the way home (it was being played on the west coast).

Today is shaping up to be a typical Sunday. Church in the morning, lunch at my favorite place, some guitar playing, and baseball, again. Today promises to be a lovely day, although it's 45 degrees right now. I've been managing to get my daily walks in between rainstorms, but that shouldn't be an issue today.

The incessant creeping of old age is beginning to have its effects. My back is constantly making it difficult to bend over - especially for tying shoes - and I've developed tinnitus in my right ear. According to my AI doctor, it's "Pulsatile Tinnitus,"

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a rare form of tinnitus characterized by hearing a rhythmic sound?such as a thumping, whooshing, or swooshing?that typically matches the beat of your pulse or heartbeat. Unlike the more common constant ringing of typical tinnitus, the sounds in pulsatile tinnitus are synchronized with your pulse and may be heard in one or both ears

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The underlying cause might be high blood pressure, or some other condition involving the vascular system, so while I now concentrate on bringing my blood pressure down, I'll probably need to see my doc. I'm due for a "wellness check," anyway. The good news is that I'm not aware of it while there's music or TV playing.

Welcome June! I hope everyone has a terrific beginning of the month!

Oh well, we had a good run. This forum is now clearing the shark in street shoes.

It's funny, I had much the same thought last night. It's funny, when we're young, so many things seem permanent and we give them little thought. As we grow older, permanence is a fleeting concept. A lot of things don't last.

The folk club I belong to just celebrated 40 years. That may not sound like much, but we're now in our third location. The first two have gone out of business. So much for permanence, eh? After talking with a former co-worker, I realized that I had made a career using a lot of technology that just doesn't exist anymore.

Did you ever wonder why those grand castles in Europe stand after 600 years? But no one lives in them, no one keeps them up. They are simply remnants. There's always turnover. Long-time church members retire, move away, or die. Without newcomers, the church would shrivel up. Fortunately, we seem to be seeing a bit of a revival in church attendance and membership these days.

Guitars are simple objects. At their core, they are essentially just six strings struck to produce a variety of tones. The simple things seem to persist. The more complex give way to the "next great thing." Maybe that's why we like guitars.

TFF has been on life support for a number of years, now. I do remember when they almost pulled the plug. As a non-commercial, non-subscription model, it's a bit of an anachronism; a labor of love, so to speak. At some point, the ownership will retire, move away or die. And TFF will also become just a memory.

It's been a good run.

I will miss not having this place for my Sunday fix but until then I will carry on.

This month will be a busy one. Changes are afoot. Construction is to begin anew and this time I plan to be in the midst of the action hopefully enabling it to be finished in a timely fashion. I'll find out this week if all my sacrifices I've made will be worth it and how long will it take to resolve the case.

I might even play guitar today.

Is the forum ending? I didn’t see any announcement of that happening so kinda bummed about it.

Went out for breakfast on one of the Harleys and we are enjoying a blue-skied, upper 60 degree day here behind the Cheddar Curtain in Wisconsin. My wife and I are looking forward to a get-together later this afternoon with some of the friends I worked with at the local Harley shop. It should be a fun afternoon with good people.

Sorry if I made it seem that TFF was ending. I know of no such plan, and like the others have said, I would be saddened by its passing. Still, it's merely a husk of its former self. There aren't any new members, and the random poster coming for answers get them and move on. I have no explanation for this shift in online behavior other than to guess that forums like this created a community of sorts, and that's not happening here.

Oddest to me is the fact that I have shifted mostly to playing acoustic guitar. And none of mine are Fenders! :bonk

And I'm one of the frequent posters here!

I was getting scared there for a minute too - thinking there was something I was missing about TFF getting shut down.
But I had a busy weekend though - almost (almost...) ready to go back to work tomorrow to recover.
Friday evening went to a show - a Pink Floyd tribute band I've been following for probably 30 years called The Machine. They played an acoustic show near me. I need to get back to one of their full electric ones soon...
Saturday I had to work, then we ran out to a sports place for getting the kiddo fit for his hockey uniform for next year. picked up a few bits and bobs for his kit while there.
Today I had my running club Couch to 5K training this morning, and the kiddo had a hockey game (spring league) this afternoon.
In between I went to the Northeast Guitar Show nearby - any other Massachusetts types go?
It was a bit better than previous versions - more vendors and more guitars, though in a smaller space.
There were a few luthiers doing interesting things. I didn't see any big deals going, though there were a few walk-ins, with dealers looking.
I picked up a pedalboard for $25, no power supply included, which is fine; I have one ready to go.
Also a Rockett Archer Icon for a decent price, with box and everything. I plugged it in for a minute at home, it sounds good, though I'll have to play with it with my other pedals and rig to dial it in.

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Originally Posted by jrgtr42

I was getting scared there for a minute too - thinking there was something I was missing about TFF getting shut down.
But I had a busy weekend though - almost (almost...) ready to go back to work tomorrow to recover.
Friday evening went to a show - a Pink Floyd tribute band I've been following for probably 30 years called The Machine. They played an acoustic show near me. I need to get back to one of their full electric ones soon...
Saturday I had to work, then we ran out to a sports place for getting the kiddo fit for his hockey uniform for next year. picked up a few bits and bobs for his kit while there.
Today I had my running club Couch to 5K training this morning, and the kiddo had a hockey game (spring league) this afternoon.
In between I went to the Northeast Guitar Show nearby - any other Massachusetts types go?
It was a bit better than previous versions - more vendors and more guitars, though in a smaller space.
There were a few luthiers doing interesting things. I didn't see any big deals going, though there were a few walk-ins, with dealers looking.
I picked up a pedalboard for $25, no power supply included, which is fine; I have one ready to go.
Also a Rockett Archer Icon for a decent price, with box and everything. I plugged it in for a minute at home, it sounds good, though I'll have to play with it with my other pedals and rig to dial it in.

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The Northeast Guitar show? Was that in Auburn, MA? I sold my Tweed Champ and Princeton Reverb ('72-73 that I owned since new) there back in 2006.

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Originally Posted by DanTheBluesMan

The Northeast Guitar show? Was that in Auburn, MA? I sold my Tweed Champ and Princeton Reverb ('72-73 that I owned since new) there back in 2006.

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I think that was the Central Mass guitar show?
This is the one that's been at the Verve / Hilton in Natick the past few years. Different location, slightly smaller room, but better selection of vendors this year.

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Originally Posted by OldStrummer

Sorry if I made it seem that TFF was ending. I know of no such plan, and like the others have said, I would be saddened by its passing. Still, it's merely a husk of its former self. There aren't any new members, and the random poster coming for answers get them and move on. I have no explanation for this shift in online behavior other than to guess that forums like this created a community of sorts, and that's not happening here.

Oddest to me is the fact that I have shifted mostly to playing acoustic guitar. And none of mine are Fenders! :bonk

And I'm one of the frequent posters here!

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Sad to say but this forum would likely be saved by a "Like" button, and the ability to post photos directly. Us old guys are used to it's archaic format but younger people are used to having a bit more. But all this costs more money.

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Originally Posted by Telenator

Sad to say but this forum would likely be saved by a "Like" button, and the ability to post photos directly. Us old guys are used to it's archaic format but younger people are used to having a bit more. But all this costs more money.

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Given the average guitar player's penchant for vintage (aka old crap that you can wave in people's faces in lieu of actually being able to play) I'm surprised it's not more popular.

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

Given the average guitar player's penchant for vintage (aka old crap that you can wave in people's faces in lieu of actually being able to play) I'm surprised it's not more popular.

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LOL

Things are changing. As they should.

There are so many new amps and guitars and ways of making music now that are so completely different from what many of us grew up with.
It does require some serious talent, but not many of the old talents we're used to.

And the listening ears are changing. I'm not particularly fond of the current trends, but there it is.

Like the American Dollar, vintage guitars carry a bloated value based on faith alone.
For my money, the vast majority of vintage guitars are pure firewood when compared to what is now available at a fraction of the price.

I am rapidly reaching the point where I may just stop playing altogether and find some new things to do that are more rewarding.

Playing at pathetic open mics that digress into drunken schlock fests hold no interest for me. Yet, that's all that seems to be available to an old cuss like me, even though I can actually play! LOL!

It's all changing and this forum, like others might be more popular if they had a more modern social media format.

Lots of great knowledge here. Shame to see it reside in the abyss.

To be fair, let's remember that, as it says on the bottom of every page here, "The Fender Forum is a privately owned and operated site." The owner(s) don't make themselves known, nor do they give any reason for its existence. I believe the Les Paul Forum is owned by the same entit(y/ies) and that's more likely where the action is, so to speak. They may own other sites as well, but those aren't made known to us.

Sites like Strat-Talk and TDPRI are corporately owned, and have not only a similarity of appearance, but their rules and moderation are conducted by corporate governance. They get a lot of traffic, but the Ban Hammer gets used a lot as a result.

I remember when TFF was threatened with shutdown. A decision was made to keep it alive, but there is very little in the way of resources being expended to do so. It shows, too. Thus, we benefit from having a TFF "community," although it's never been made clear to me why. I'm happy it's here, I'm happy I'm here, I mention it in conversation, but no one has ever surveyed me on my usage.

Part of the reason for this post is that I have my own Internet domain. I've had it since 1996. Every now and then I've thought of leveraging into something more than a cobweb-filled corner of the 'Net (when TFF was contemplating shutdown, I built a mock-up forum which might ostensibly replace it. TFF was kept alive and my site has once again become a sandbox). I appreciate that sites cost money, but with little traffic, I mostly just pay for the domain name and the hosting service. It doesn't break the bank, but it could spiral if I tried to make it into something. So, not spending money of TFF other than keeping it alive is the decision of the owner(s). Thank you, whoever you are.

Agreed. The natural thing is wanting to see growth and prosperity of something we enjoy so that others may join and bring their knowledge, wisdom and sense of humor as well.

There was a time...

Bob, we're contemporaries and I'm playing more shows now than ever before. It's out there - but it's like everything else in the music biz - it doesn't come to you and you need to work hard to make it happen.

Agreed with the open jam thing. The Three Chord Wannabees have ruined them for everybody. I mean, yeah, we used to put jams together and had some players show up, we basically ended them because they were turning into 3 chord wank-fests. I had a nice experience that was similar to the old days a few months ago. Had a guy who is a pro musician put a throw together to host and it was fun hanging with real players like back in the day. I was asked to come to another one and well, it was not-so-good. There seems to be a culture of folks who are not decent enough players to play professionally that are on the "Jam Circuit". At our experience level, a whole night of listening to these folks is tough. Great, they know a scale or two and can basically hold the beat, but that's about it. When every solo starts by bending the 4th up a whole step - well you know it's going to be a loooong night.

What I have found though is that the 90's boomer players that were all into Clapton and SRV and bragging about their "tone" have really disappeared into the woodwork as we age. So somehow the natural distillation process has removed a lot of the guys (not being sexist, girls playing guitar at a jam are rarer than hen's teeth) our age that were wannabees but lacked what it takes to be a pro musician.

There are a lot of competent bands out there, but the issue is that venues that want live music are getting harder to come by.

Then the other reality is that back in 1990 we were making $75 to $100 per night for a local bar gig and today, 35 years later, we're making the same money for a bar gig. That sucks and it's mostly because for a long, long time so many sucky bands would work for $300/night. Good news is that we've paid our dues a few times over, established a name and developed out show to where we now get more than that. Downside is, it requires a lot of travel with the associated expenses. Trailer, road crew, sound crew, lights etc. That's more ways to split up the pie so in reality, on some drive away shows I about break even. But on the other hand, on some shows I get paid handsomely so if you average it all out it's worth it.

And another thing that's better today is the gear we use. I mean, today I can play a stadium with a Pro Jr. No need to lug a Twin or a four-holer around like back in the day. Heck, even my DR is more than is required today. In fact, amps are not mandatory today to play professionally.

It's the music biz and you just need to take it day-by-day. We all have droughts from time to time. Power through. You're a good player with a lot of great experience so something will come along. Always does. You've got the chops and you know what it takes to do the job. Hang in there, it will happen.

In the meantime, you are always welcome to play with us if the mood strikes. We have a lot of shows coming up and it would be nice for me to lay back and let somebody else have a go once in a while. Plus it keeps it fresh and adds some energy!

Chuck

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

Bob, we're contemporaries and I'm playing more shows now than ever before. It's out there - but it's like everything else in the music biz - it doesn't come to you and you need to work hard to make it happen.

Agreed with the open jam thing. The Three Chord Wannabees have ruined them for everybody. I mean, yeah, we used to put jams together and had some players show up, we basically ended them because they were turning into 3 chord wank-fests. I had a nice experience that was similar to the old days a few months ago. Had a guy who is a pro musician put a throw together to host and it was fun hanging with real players like back in the day. I was asked to come to another one and well, it was not-so-good. There seems to be a culture of folks who are not decent enough players to play professionally that are on the "Jam Circuit". At our experience level, a whole night of listening to these folks is tough. Great, they know a scale or two and can basically hold the beat, but that's about it. When every solo starts by bending the 4th up a whole step - well you know it's going to be a loooong night.

What I have found though is that the 90's boomer players that were all into Clapton and SRV and bragging about their "tone" have really disappeared into the woodwork as we age. So somehow the natural distillation process has removed a lot of the guys (not being sexist, girls playing guitar at a jam are rarer than hen's teeth) our age that were wannabees but lacked what it takes to be a pro musician.

There are a lot of competent bands out there, but the issue is that venues that want live music are getting harder to come by.

Then the other reality is that back in 1990 we were making $75 to $100 per night for a local bar gig and today, 35 years later, we're making the same money for a bar gig. That sucks and it's mostly because for a long, long time so many sucky bands would work for $300/night. Good news is that we've paid our dues a few times over, established a name and developed out show to where we now get more than that. Downside is, it requires a lot of travel with the associated expenses. Trailer, road crew, sound crew, lights etc. That's more ways to split up the pie so in reality, on some drive away shows I about break even. But on the other hand, on some shows I get paid handsomely so if you average it all out it's worth it.

And another thing that's better today is the gear we use. I mean, today I can play a stadium with a Pro Jr. No need to lug a Twin or a four-holer around like back in the day. Heck, even my DR is more than is required today. In fact, amps are not mandatory today to play professionally.

It's the music biz and you just need to take it day-by-day. We all have droughts from time to time. Power through. You're a good player with a lot of great experience so something will come along. Always does. You've got the chops and you know what it takes to do the job. Hang in there, it will happen.

In the meantime, you are always welcome to play with us if the mood strikes. We have a lot of shows coming up and it would be nice for me to lay back and let somebody else have a go once in a while. Plus it keeps it fresh and adds some energy!

Chuck

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Well Said!

How I have responded to this scene for the last decade or so is 2 fold:

1. For consistent gigs, I search out non denomination churches with a high level production of Contemporary Christian music. There I can play electric, acoustic or bass. They tend to have their setlists prepared 1-3 weeks in advance, so easy to prepare for. As most of them run silent stages, that fits in well with me as all I need is line to FOH and an IEM monitor out.

2. On-call coop. There are local bands. If someone is sick or needs time away, I get a call for a sit in.

So far this year, I have done 38 gigs and 26 rehearsals netting $12,100. That's an average of $189 a gig. And being most of these are church based, when I say gig, it equals a single service, single rehearsal, or a single setlist. That's normally 3-5 songs. So let's call it 4 on average. That means I am getting 47.27 a song I play. Not bad and doesn't encroach on true job. Prep time is minimal. I get the setlist and prepare as needed. As a lot of songs are ones I have already done, I pull my notes from before to refresh myself. I choose an instrument and hop in my truck. I keep my gig bag and a modeler in my truck at all times.

I have gotten calls on last minute call outs where they ask if I can be there in 2 hrs, often I can be there in 15 minutes. Part of the reason this works as I have worked to minimize load in/out times as you don't get paid for that.

Mark, good stuff and yes, being ready to go on-call is how you get paid. I can set up in 5 minutes and be ready to go. No taping cables to the floor (hack move 101) putting charts on the floor, no music stand or iPad. That's what aspiring players need to work towards. It's not about being an "artiste". It's about being on time, ready to go and doing what's asked of you. If someone wants to rehearse a new song it should never take more than three run throughs to get it right lest you start getting the side-eye from the other players and the texts stop coming your way. It's expected you have the ear-training to learn a song on the fly if required.

That's why Bob has open invitation. He shows up and gets the job done and is a nice guy in the process.

Chuck

Amen to that.
That?s why I used the term high production level on purpose.
I?ve gotten calls to play gigs. No set list when promised no one else on time. No one else prepared. And you expected me to tear down?
I was asked, did you like it? I told them to lose my number.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

Bob, we're contemporaries and I'm playing more shows now than ever before. It's out there - but it's like everything else in the music biz - it doesn't come to you and you need to work hard to make it happen.

Agreed with the open jam thing. The Three Chord Wannabees have ruined them for everybody. I mean, yeah, we used to put jams together and had some players show up, we basically ended them because they were turning into 3 chord wank-fests. I had a nice experience that was similar to the old days a few months ago. Had a guy who is a pro musician put a throw together to host and it was fun hanging with real players like back in the day. I was asked to come to another one and well, it was not-so-good. There seems to be a culture of folks who are not decent enough players to play professionally that are on the "Jam Circuit". At our experience level, a whole night of listening to these folks is tough. Great, they know a scale or two and can basically hold the beat, but that's about it. When every solo starts by bending the 4th up a whole step - well you know it's going to be a loooong night.

What I have found though is that the 90's boomer players that were all into Clapton and SRV and bragging about their "tone" have really disappeared into the woodwork as we age. So somehow the natural distillation process has removed a lot of the guys (not being sexist, girls playing guitar at a jam are rarer than hen's teeth) our age that were wannabees but lacked what it takes to be a pro musician.

There are a lot of competent bands out there, but the issue is that venues that want live music are getting harder to come by.

Then the other reality is that back in 1990 we were making $75 to $100 per night for a local bar gig and today, 35 years later, we're making the same money for a bar gig. That sucks and it's mostly because for a long, long time so many sucky bands would work for $300/night. Good news is that we've paid our dues a few times over, established a name and developed out show to where we now get more than that. Downside is, it requires a lot of travel with the associated expenses. Trailer, road crew, sound crew, lights etc. That's more ways to split up the pie so in reality, on some drive away shows I about break even. But on the other hand, on some shows I get paid handsomely so if you average it all out it's worth it.

And another thing that's better today is the gear we use. I mean, today I can play a stadium with a Pro Jr. No need to lug a Twin or a four-holer around like back in the day. Heck, even my DR is more than is required today. In fact, amps are not mandatory today to play professionally.

It's the music biz and you just need to take it day-by-day. We all have droughts from time to time. Power through. You're a good player with a lot of great experience so something will come along. Always does. You've got the chops and you know what it takes to do the job. Hang in there, it will happen.

In the meantime, you are always welcome to play with us if the mood strikes. We have a lot of shows coming up and it would be nice for me to lay back and let somebody else have a go once in a while. Plus it keeps it fresh and adds some energy!

Chuck

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My dear friend Chuck, you of all people know how hard I work at this stuff.
Over the past 10 years I have learned perhaps at least 150 songs groups that had started up and then fell apart shortly there after.
I have worked very hard at learning the material and always showing up prepared, as I did when I sat in with you guys.
The problems I'm facing are that rehearsals are most often more than an hour away, and that the people I have found up north are nowhere as ready when they show up. It's frustrating. I'm no great player by any means, but I am always prepared.
Another issue is the lack of decent venues to play. It really is a different worlind in Northern New England where the challenges of just finding people to play with are many. But it ain't for lack of trying. I respond to the very few ads I find, and I run my own as well. When I recently began looking at the amount of time I have invested over the past 10 years, and amount work vs success, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to read the graph.
This is further evidenced by the lack of successful bands playing these regions. I live in a dead zone.
I'm not bellyaching about it. Just having a moment of reckoning.
And being smart. Time to change things up a bit.
Thank you for the offer to sit in. I will take you up on it at some point over the summer. Always a good time.
....and I will show prepared! LOL!

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Originally Posted by Telenator

My dear friend Chuck, you of all people know how hard I work at this stuff.
Over the past 10 years I have learned perhaps at least 150 songs groups that had started up and then fell apart shortly there after.
I have worked very hard at learning the material and always showing up prepared, as I did when I sat in with you guys.
The problems I'm facing are that rehearsals are most often more than an hour away, and that the people I have found up north are nowhere as ready when they show up. It's frustrating. I'm no great player by any means, but I am always prepared.
Another issue is the lack of decent venues to play. It really is a different worlind in Northern New England where the challenges of just finding people to play with are many. But it ain't for lack of trying. I respond to the very few ads I find, and I run my own as well. When I recently began looking at the amount of time I have invested over the past 10 years, and amount work vs success, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to read the graph.
This is further evidenced by the lack of successful bands playing these regions. I live in a dead zone.
I'm not bellyaching about it. Just having a moment of reckoning.
And being smart. Time to change things up a bit.
Thank you for the offer to sit in. I will take you up on it at some point over the summer. Always a good time.
....and I will show prepared! LOL!

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Great reply Bob. It also got me thinking about something that I've never really been able to articulate to aspiring players. It's this: The audience doesn't have any inkling or care about the sacrifices players have had to make to be there making music to allow said audience to have a good time.

The hours spent toiling away to learn material, the theory studying, the missed family moments, the expenses, the rejection, the toll it takes on your body, the late nights, the hours maintaining gear, keeping your mouth shut when another player is being a jerk and on and on and on.

All they see is you projecting good vibes from the stage - or corner of the bar - and go "Gee, that looks like fun!" We know different. It's something I have tried unsuccessfully to illuminate to people on this forum. One can often can tell by reading some people's posts that they have an unrealistic view of what being in a successful band or studio career is like. It's simply the hardest job you'll ever have for the least pay you'll ever get. Even if you strike well enough to be a touring musician the odds of breaking even are very low.

Sounds like you're at a tipping point. Are you going to sacrifice your current situation to do what it is you need to keep playing? There's no right or wrong answer. The correct answer is you do what you want to.

You already know this, I'm just pointing it out not for you, but for others to understand that when you see guys like Bob onstage it's not because he bought a bunch of gear, it's because he had to pay some serious dues to be there. Any when we musicians speak of "paying dues" it has little to do with playing in lesser bands and working your way up learning the craft. That's the fun part. Paying dues about the sacrifices and commitment it takes to be in it for the long haul.

Notice All, that Bob doesn't whine or blame others, he simply states his experience and that he needs to be realistic. That's because Bob has paid dues and understands.

Also be aware that when guys that have been in the trenches for a while read the inevitable posts about how your band isn't working out because of the other guy or the drummer is too loud or I sucked last night because I couldn't hear myself or whatever, we're rolling our eyes and clicking onto the next thread.

Chuck