Guitar is harder when you try to play a song and not tablature…

Been chewing on this lately since I’ve made a concerted effort to play WITH songs instead of mindlessly noodling without context but playing with songs. Which is a LOT more fun but a lot harder. All of a sudden I need to play in time to not sound like a hack. That’s harder than it seems. I started off figuring this out when I was learning the solos to Tie Your Mother Down by Queen. Got decent at hacking away at it without any context, but then picking it up with the music or a metronome and I got lost completely.

Figuring this out again recently with a couple songs that seem simple until you try to play with the recording (for me at least): Monkey Man by the Stones and Roxanne. Why?

Monkey Man: Keith Richard’s plays like 5 or 6 variations on one fm the main riffs of the song, all using a slightly different play on the same groove. All of them I can do easily in isolation, most of them easily with the song, but a couple of them of them are deceptively hard for me to do and stay in the groove.

Roxanne is a simple song, but the part that trips me up is the loooong pauses between verses. Sting is pretty lazy with starting things off again with “Roooooooooxanne” and it’s a pain to learn how to time things to kick back in on time with Stewart, Andy, and Sting (bass). Slowly learning to ignore singer Sting and count off after the song pauses between verses. Same problem before the chorus switches to the Eddie Cochrane thing.

Playing songs is much harder than playing tablature.

Yep, "playing guitar" is something you do with your hands. Making music is something orders of magnitude more complicated. Being a musical performer is even more complicated.

And besides timing, you need to know the arrangements, listen to how you're sounding in the stage mix and in a live setting be watching everyone in case the arrangement is going to change. That's for classic rock, now when you get into jam-based playing such as jazz/fusion or southern rock stuff it's taken to the next level. And at every venue it will sound different so you need to adapt.

Then you get to bigger stages and blocking and lighting come into play so you need to know where to move when.

But good news is you learn it in stages.


But you are indeed correct, timing is everything. Even on your vibrato.

Chuck

Not calling myself a guitar player, just a hack that enjoys the instrument. Most of the bands I worked as a drummer. so don't have a problem with timing, just hard to make all the notes fit with my fat fingers.
I guess that's why they call it practice!

I'm right there with you tugboat. Only within the past couple of years have I taken the next step from being a bedroom player to an on-stage performer.

EVERYTHING is different! From the lighting and the sound to faces in the audience. Every weakness I have is magnified, and my strengths can work against me. For example, while I don't wish to play with sheet music, I don't have every song down pat, so I like to have the crutch of an iPad or laptop to which I can refer. Except under harsh stage lights and my aging eyes, I often can't make hide nor hair out of what's on the screen. A strength (or so I imagine) is that I have a pretty good ear. On stage I can hear if one string goes slightly out of tune, and it takes everything I've got to not stop and tune it up.

For me, it's a matter of discipline. When I'm at home noodling around, I can be careless, stop and start, go back and over, and as Bill said, that's why it's called practice. When I hit the stage, I know the songs I perform have a beginning, a middle and an end. Since I do open mics a lot, I have to make sure I can start on time and end by the time the light goes red.

This has really caused me to improve, IMO. Having to tighten things up has made me a better guitar player, a better singer (an unexpected side effect) and a better performer.

One of the best tools I have when I have to learn a song is my old PODxt. I can USB it into my pc, an then it becomes a mixer adding my guitar part to the original recording. That way my playing is in the mix so it's somewhat akin to playing it live. I can listen to my sound and make sure I have everything dialed in for the song and it's like rehearsing with the band as you need to get the arrangement down. YMMV, but as someone who has to learn and perform a lot of songs, I find it quite valuable.

Chuck

Interesting discussion. I say that as I learned to play playing along with songs and other musicians. I suck at noodling. Feel at home on stage. As far as sound/tone, I always try to get an idea of what I hear vs the audience. Even something as simple as auditioning a guitar, once I play it and like it, I have someone else play so I can hear it.

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Originally Posted by blackonblack

Interesting discussion. I say that as I learned to play playing along with songs and other musicians. I suck at noodling. Feel at home on stage. As far as sound/tone, I always try to get an idea of what I hear vs the audience. Even something as simple as auditioning a guitar, once I play it and like it, I have someone else play so I can hear it.

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Mark,

kind of the same thing with me. If I go int a music store and grab an axe I usually go blank, but put me in the band in front of a live audience and you can't shut me up lol!

Chuck

I once told one of my guitar wielding co-workers, there are "players," and "those who play."

He was a guy who basically coat-tailed a band situation where the music kinda dragged him along. He wasn't grooving with the group. He was basically all up in his own mind and treated the Verse, Bridge, and Chorus like they were those annoying parts between his guitar solos. He played, but was not a player.

Music with others isn't something you do from an isolated perspective. When you're "a player" you contribute to the group as an integral part of the band. That means playing in tune, in time, and at an appropriate volume level.
It means that your fills reflect and stylistically support the vocals. It also means to stop playing when you're unsure of what you're doing. Supporting the overall sound is of paramount importance and should never be sacrificed in a group dynamic by "one who plays" and doesn't know what they're doing. It is the responsibility of everyone in the group to know what they're doing, or turn that shit down so it doesn't ruin everything for everyone.

The smart people will learn from their difficulties and go home to work on the areas that need attention. Those are the one who become "players."

The other side of this is that when you're playing with a new group of experienced players, they will recognize your preparedness and ability to play nice in the context of the songs, and invite you in by leaving more open space in the songs for you to make contributions. A beautiful example of this was being invited to sub in Chuck, Offshore Angler's group for a couple of gigs this summer. Once they realized I had actually learned all the music well and was staying off everyone's toes, they began to open up the group to invite the added sounds. They played it like pros and we did a couple of great gigs with no rehearsals. Those guys are "players" and it was really great to join them for a couple nights.

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Originally Posted by Tele-Bob

I once told one of my guitar wielding co-workers, there are "players," and "those who play."

He was a guy who basically coat-tailed a band situation where the music kinda dragged him along. He wasn't grooving with the group. He was basically all up in his own mind and treated the Verse, Bridge, and Chorus like they were those annoying parts between his guitar solos. He played, but was not a player.

Music with others isn't something you do from an isolated perspective. When you're "a player" you contribute to the group as an integral part of the band. That means playing in tune, in time, and at an appropriate volume level.
It means that your fills reflect and stylistically support the vocals. It also means to stop playing when you're unsure of what you're doing. Supporting the overall sound is of paramount importance and should never be sacrificed in a group dynamic by "one who plays" and doesn't know what they're doing. It is the responsibility of everyone in the group to know what they're doing, or turn that shit down so it doesn't ruin everything for everyone.

The smart people will learn from their difficulties and go home to work on the areas that need attention. Those are the one who become "players."

The other side of this is that when you're playing with a new group of experienced players, they will recognize your preparedness and ability to play nice in the context of the songs, and invite you in by leaving more open space in the songs for you to make contributions. A beautiful example of this was being invited to sub in Chuck, Offshore Angler's group for a couple of gigs this summer. Once they realized I had actually learned all the music well and was staying off everyone's toes, they began to open up the group to invite the added sounds. They played it like pros and we did a couple of great gigs with no rehearsals. Those guys are "players" and it was really great to join them for a couple nights.

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Best damn advice you're ever gonna get......from anyone!

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Originally Posted by Tele-Bob

IThey played it like pros and we did a couple of great gigs with no rehearsals. Those guys are "players" and it was really great to join them for a couple nights.

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And Bob, you are always welcome to sit in with us. It's extremely nice for a band that plays a lot to have a player sit in and put a fresh take on things.

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

Mark,

kind of the same thing with me. If I go int a music store and grab an axe I usually go blank, but put me in the band in front of a live audience and you can't shut me up lol!

Chuck

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Winner of the interwebs today! That’s exactly how I am.

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Originally Posted by Tele-Bob

I once told one of my guitar wielding co-workers, there are "players," and "those who play."

He was a guy who basically coat-tailed a band situation where the music kinda dragged him along. He wasn't grooving with the group. He was basically all up in his own mind and treated the Verse, Bridge, and Chorus like they were those annoying parts between his guitar solos. He played, but was not a player.

Music with others isn't something you do from an isolated perspective. When you're "a player" you contribute to the group as an integral part of the band. That means playing in tune, in time, and at an appropriate volume level.
It means that your fills reflect and stylistically support the vocals. It also means to stop playing when you're unsure of what you're doing. Supporting the overall sound is of paramount importance and should never be sacrificed in a group dynamic by "one who plays" and doesn't know what they're doing. It is the responsibility of everyone in the group to know what they're doing, or turn that shit down so it doesn't ruin everything for everyone.

The smart people will learn from their difficulties and go home to work on the areas that need attention. Those are the one who become "players."

The other side of this is that when you're playing with a new group of experienced players, they will recognize your preparedness and ability to play nice in the context of the songs, and invite you in by leaving more open space in the songs for you to make contributions. A beautiful example of this was being invited to sub in Chuck, Offshore Angler's group for a couple of gigs this summer. Once they realized I had actually learned all the music well and was staying off everyone's toes, they began to open up the group to invite the added sounds. They played it like pros and we did a couple of great gigs with no rehearsals. Those guys are "players" and it was really great to join them for a couple nights.

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And here is the other winner of the interwebs today.
+1000

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

Mark,

kind of the same thing with me. If I go int a music store and grab an axe I usually go blank, but put me in the band in front of a live audience and you can't shut me up lol!

Chuck

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I thought I was the only one. I forget every which song I play when I enter a music shop

Had some time to process this thread. First, thank you Bob for the kind words, I know the boys in the band enjoyed having you there.

Which brings me to my second point - If you want to develop the skills you need to play in a (good) band, learn to play "heads up". That means you are looking at your band mates and watching and connecting with the audience.

I see WAY too many people who just stare down at their guitar and that can be extremely frustrating to the rest of the band. You need to always be watching. ALWAYS! Ain't nothing more exasperating than say, having a great set going, all the girls are up dancing and I make the "keep it going" signal and somebody isn't tuned in and goes right to the outro killing the moment.

In the scenario Bob describes above one of the reasons he fit in so seamlessly is that he was heads up and watching and listening. I knew he would be so that opened up space for me too. So much of what we do onstage is non-verbal. I might look over at the keyboard player and give him a nod to take one, same with all the other musicians. If you can't play at least half of the song blindfolded you need to go back to the woodshed before you play it live. Same with guitar solos.

The other thing I was taught when I was a young blues player in Texas more decades ago than I would like to admit: Find the person as far from the stage as you can see, and play directly to that person. That gets you projecting. Now, yes, in practice I admit that a 20-something 6 foot tall blond in stilettos and an unconstrained tank top dancing right in front of the stage will overrule that, but you should at least keep it in the back of your mind when playing.


Chuck

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

Had some time to process this thread. First, thank you Bob for the kind words, I know the boys in the band enjoyed having you there.

Which brings me to my second point - If you want to develop the skills you need to play in a (good) band, learn to play "heads up". That means you are looking at your band mates and watching and connecting with the audience.

I see WAY too many people who just stare down at their guitar and that can be extremely frustrating to the rest of the band. You need to always be watching. ALWAYS! Ain't nothing more exasperating than say, having a great set going, all the girls are up dancing and I make the "keep it going" signal and somebody isn't tuned in and goes right to the outro killing the moment.

In the scenario Bob describes above one of the reasons he fit in so seamlessly is that he was heads up and watching and listening. I knew he would be so that opened up space for me too. So much of what we do onstage is non-verbal. I might look over at the keyboard player and give him a nod to take one, same with all the other musicians. If you can't play at least half of the song blindfolded you need to go back to the woodshed before you play it live. Same with guitar solos.

The other thing I was taught when I was a young blues player in Texas more decades ago than I would like to admit: Find the person as far from the stage as you can see, and play directly to that person. That gets you projecting. Now, yes, in practice I admit that a 20-something 6 foot tall blond in stilettos and an unconstrained tank top dancing right in front of the stage will overrule that, but you should at least keep it in the back of your mind when playing.

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Excellent post script!

This thread has turned into a gold mine of wisdom! Thank you!!

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Originally Posted by OldStrummer

I'm right there with you tugboat. Only within the past couple of years have I taken the next step from being a bedroom player to an on-stage performer.

EVERYTHING is different! From the lighting and the sound to faces in the audience. Every weakness I have is magnified, and my strengths can work against me. For example, while I don't wish to play with sheet music, I don't have every song down pat, so I like to have the crutch of an iPad or laptop to which I can refer. Except under harsh stage lights and my aging eyes, I often can't make hide nor hair out of what's on the screen. A strength (or so I imagine) is that I have a pretty good ear. On stage I can hear if one string goes slightly out of tune, and it takes everything I've got to not stop and tune it up.

For me, it's a matter of discipline. When I'm at home noodling around, I can be careless, stop and start, go back and over, and as Bill said, that's why it's called practice. When I hit the stage, I know the songs I perform have a beginning, a middle and an end. Since I do open mics a lot, I have to make sure I can start on time and end by the time the light goes red.

This has really caused me to improve, IMO. Having to tighten things up has made me a better guitar player, a better singer (an unexpected side effect) and a better performer.

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Something I hate is when the stage lighting is bad. I am comfortable playing live at dark venues, but stage lighting has to be well set. There must be just enough light (even if intermitent) for me to see the fretboard.

I don't need to look at the guitar all the time, eye contact with the public is important and fun. But I wasn't trained as a blind guitarist, and playing in a dark corner of the pub, as I sometimed had to do, SUCKS. When I need to reach for the higher frets during a solo it's definitely fucked up if you can't see anything. Some venues are amateur and think they can leave the stage in the dark and just aim a spotlight directly into the band.

Even worse is when there actually is stage lighting but poorly done. Last gig I played was in a private pub (this guy built a pub in his basement just for his friends and family, nothing wrong with that) but he had the brilliant idea of placing light spots on the GROUND. You looked down at the guitar and voilá: you couldn't see anything.

Now, regarding the thread subject and discussions, I am a bit fed up with playing gigs.

ATM I'm much more into studying music production and writing and playing my own stuff than covering songs live.

Honestly, I'd never thought I'd ever enjoy plugging the guitar into a computer through an interface and do everything with simulators (plugins). I didn't lose my love for vacuum tubes and the sensation of using a full gear rig but man, it's practical when you want to write a guitar track without having to set up a whole rig and dial in your tone.

I've been experimenting with Reaper and some plugins by a German company named Black Rooster Audio, they got some kickass products.

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Originally Posted by S. Cane

I thought I was the only one. I forget every which song I play when I enter a music shop

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No, you are not alone LOL!

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

The other thing I was taught when I was a young blues player in Texas more decades ago than I would like to admit: Find the person as far from the stage as you can see, and play directly to that person. That gets you projecting. Now, yes, in practice I admit that a 20-something 6 foot tall blond in stilettos and an unconstrained tank top dancing right in front of the stage will overrule that, but you should at least keep it in the back of your mind when playing.
Chuck

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This is why I mainly play in large churches LOL.

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Originally Posted by S. Cane

Something I hate is when the stage lighting is bad. I am comfortable playing live at dark venues, but stage lighting has to be well set. There must be just enough light (even if intermitent) for me to see the fretboard.

I don't need to look at the guitar all the time, eye contact with the public is important and fun. But I wasn't trained as a blind guitarist, and playing in a dark corner of the pub, as I sometimed had to do, SUCKS. When I need to reach for the higher frets during a solo it's definitely fucked up if you can't see anything. Some venues are amateur and think they can leave the stage in the dark and just aim a spotlight directly into the band.

Even worse is when there actually is stage lighting but poorly done. Last gig I played was in a private pub (this guy built a pub in his basement just for his friends and family, nothing wrong with that) but he had the brilliant idea of placing light spots on the GROUND. You looked down at the guitar and voilá: you couldn't see anything.

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You can't depend on venues for lighting, that's the band's job to provide.


At large venues where the money is adequate it's usually the case that you contract with a lighting company. And then tell them to knock that smoke sh!t off. It makes the stage as slippery as an ice rink.

Really, one of the things you should always carry in your gig bag is a clip on light. They're pretty danged handy. I have a couple USB rechargable lights. Clip them to the mic stand so you can see and be seen.

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

You can't depend on venues for lighting, that's the band's job to provide.


At large venues where the money is adequate it's usually the case that you contract with a lighting company. And then tell them to knock that smoke sh!t off. It makes the stage as slippery as an ice rink.

Really, one of the things you should always carry in your gig bag is a clip on light. They're pretty danged handy. I have a couple USB rechargable lights. Clip them to the mic stand so you can see and be seen.

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Yes most venues here have nice lighting, so I got lazy. Can you show your clip on lights? I'll get myself one.

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Originally Posted by S. Cane

Yes most venues here have nice lighting, so I got lazy. Can you show your clip on lights? I'll get myself one.

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Just do the Amazon thing, there's so many you can't count. I have some ones that clip on bicycles with stretchy rubber. You could put on on your guitar if you wanted, lol!

Bob and GJ, I sent Bob a text. If you guys want to come hang 2/17 I have a show to play and I'll be down a player. Could use a hand.


Fame! Fortune! Groupies! All this and more!

Chuck

Fame? Fortune? Groupies?
Wow, all the expense and years of study have finally paid off!
Nick and I will listen to each other's new albums on the drive, LOL!

BTW Sergio, another trick we use onstage is the super glow in the dark side markers.