Zappa: Is it just me or...

Is he really, really overrated?

I guess he falls in the 'progressive rock' category but from 1969 to his last album there seems to be the same arppeggio, jangly guitar, and bass voice going 'YAAHHHH' on every album. The songs are heavily syncopated but seem to have the same syncopation at different tempos.

I feel like his music had very little creative work and was just one impulse driven manic piece after another with very little variation.

I'm a huge fan of Kronos Quartet. The pieces they play are dissonant, repetitive, sometimes enjoyably harmonic but each piece has a distinct beginning, middle and end.

I just don't understand what others get out of listening to Zappa.

Maybe it's like the Harry Potter book reading phenomena. You want to look cool so you buy the book but never read it. With Zappa you listen to the music once and then agree with whoever says, "Ya, it's great" because you don't want to look uncool.

It's just you.

yep...

Just you.


Well, here's a better response.

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Originally Posted by Iowegan

I feel like his music had very little creative work

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I could not disagree with you more on this point. The creative impulse behind his work and the message (or anti-message) in so much of it is just, to me, brilliant. Your opinion, though, is worth just as much as mine.

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Originally Posted by Iowegan

I just don't understand what others get out of listening to Zappa.

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Here's what bugged me about your post. Why do you care? If you suspect that "cool" people want you to like Zappa (or Kronos) because you're not "cool" if you do, that's fine, but who cares? If you listened to a fair sampling of his work and don't like it, no big deal, right? Having someone explain why they like something you already know you don't like is an exercise in futility, and really sounds to me like you are indeed asking to know what is "cool" about Zappa so you can succumb to this perceived pressure anyway.

I'm probably as big a fan of Kronos as I am of Zappa, but neither see extremely frequent play on my iTunes--I kind of need to be in a certain mood to listen to either. When I do listen to them, though, both move me in certain very real if indefinable ways--but not because someone else thought they should move me.

When I was in high school I was a big Zappa fan. In the early Nineties I had the opportunity to play w/a guy who had worked for him at some point. The guy actually was involved w/him through his frienship w/Little Feat guitarist Lowell George. When he said he had played w/Frank I mentioned that I was a big fan. He was very gracious, trying hard not to disappoint my obvious appreciation of him but didn't have a lot of good things to say. The gist of what he said was that the stuff I liked about him was most likely due to the incredible musicians he surrounded himself with. Something like, "Oh yeah, Frank had an eye for talent."

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Originally Posted by 71818

"Oh yeah, Frank had an eye for talent."

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He sure did. But they also had to play something. Frank composed challenging music for them to play.

Besides, would you rather hear Chester Thompson play something off of Overnite Sensation, or something off of Abacab?

Read last months guitar player. Frank is sorta profiled

Listen to Zoot Allures. That's the one where he used Jimi's burned up strat.

the best I saw him was in NY at the Peir when he closed the show with the Allmans Brothers "Whipping Boy" . I kid you not, all instrumental.

It was pure genuis.

PC

I hear ya on the 'being in the mood'. I guess I just remember sitting around with groups of people in the 70's and 80's listening to Zappa albums and thinking 'are we hearing the same music?'. After the latest GP mag came out I thought I would revisit Zappa's music with a longer, wider view. I just came away with the same feelings I had 20 years ago.

I fell into the 'genius' trap in the 70's listening to Al Dimeola. I just thought that he was amazing and brilliant. 'Friday Night in San Francisco' brought me back to the jazz/shredder side for awhile but after a while it just left me feeling like it's just ego-driven, soulless, technical music.

I guess that's what I feel with Zappa. It's incredibly technical and interesting but the 'muse' got left behind somewhere in the mix.

Do you mean Whipping Post?

I like Frank's music. Not something I listen to all that frequently either but I do enjoy it from time to time. If you don't like it, that's okay with me. I don't think he was ever trying to find a broad base of appeal.

Hi. It's me again. The Central Scruuuuuuuuuuuuuutinizer.

Pure genius.

I respectfully disagree. A lot.

I understand that it's not really helpful for me to tell you to go listen to my favorite Zappa record, so I won't. However, I want to go on record to say that the live album Roxy & Elsewhere is my favorite release of Frank's. The tunes rock, the musicianship is amazing, and the arrangements make you check the liner notes to make sure that, yes, those crazy F*ckers actually played all that live onstage.

http://www.science.uva.nl/~robbert/z..._Elsewhere.jpg

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Originally Posted by jeru

Roxy & Elsewhere...

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...is what's in my Jeep CD player right now. Some great sounds on there. I swear his SG sounds like an archtop on those fills on Dummy Up. Pygmy Twilite has got an awesome riff, too.

I have Uncle Meat on LP, but it's missing one of the records. I like what I've heard from it, though, but I probably won't buy it on CD to listen to in the car. Actually... :hmm

I think like anyone else, Zappa has his style, his way of attacking things, his sound. If you like it, that's the way you would perceive it. If you don't care for it, it will likely sound repetitive, the same annoying thing over and over again.

Like what hip hop probably sounds like to most rock fans, and conversely what rock probably sounds like to most hip hop fans. FWIW, I'm glad our music isn't called "hip-hop".

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Originally Posted by boobtube21

"hip-hop".

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http://www.musick8.com/product_images/hiphopbunny.gif

Yeah man....It's you.....

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Originally Posted by curtisstetka

I don't think he was ever trying to find a broad base of appeal.

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http://media.musictoday.com/store/ba...ium/ZPCT12.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kap'n

...would you rather hear Chester Thompson play something off of Overnite Sensation, or something off of Abacab?

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Okay, Overnite Sensation!

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Originally Posted by boobtube21

I have Uncle Meat on LP, but it's missing one of the records. I like what I've heard from it, though, but I probably won't buy it on CD to listen to in the car. Actually... :hmm

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Uncle Meat has always been one of my favorite albums.
"If We'd All Been Living In California..." -not a song, but great anyways. Followed by "The Air" LOL!!!
And then there's...
"I can't tell when you're telling the truth..."
"I'm not."
"How'd I know anything you said to me is..."
"You don't."
My twist on Iowegan's observation (especially when I was in H.S.) was that there were a ton of people that seemed to be "into" Zappa, when in reality they knew nothing about the larger catalog of work, only being aquainted w/the more "pop" stuff (I'm thinking Apostrophe ('), Overnite Sensation, & Bongo Fury) & more specifically the tunes on those albums that got radio airplay or were so outrageous that they stuck in the pop consciouness of the time. Lots of folks associate FZ w/"Don't Eat The Yellow Snow" or "Dinah-Moe-Hum" but woundn't get "Peaches En Regalia" or ANYTHING off of We're Only In It For The Money.
Spelling corrections made.

We are not allowed to dissagree with mods here ,no?? :ola



Zappa was the Man back in the day!!! Music that you just had to listen to several times, just to get a bit of a grasp, and then it would blossom on you.


quote

Here's what bugged me about your post. Why do you care? If you suspect that "cool" people want you to like Zappa (or Kronos) because you're not "cool" if you do, that's fine, but who cares? If you listened to a fair sampling of his work and don't like it, no big deal, right? Having someone explain why they like something you already know you don't like is an exercise in futility, and really sounds to me like you are indeed asking to know what is "cool" about Zappa so you can succumb to this perceived pressure anyway.

well put.

CT.

I'm not a huge fan or collecter of FZ's music. I do have Joe's Garage parts one, two and three. I remember devoting big blocks of time to listen to them all the way through, disecting each part and dropping my jaw at the skill level of the musician's involved all the while laughing so hard I could hardly breathe..I love those records and to think that it was all composed by FZ is pure genius IMHO.

Curtis,

Frank introduced the song as Whipping Boy! LOL!

He really had a sense of humor.

No, he's not over-rated, but you don't have to try to like him to seem cool. That gets annoying. He's one of the artists you either seem to get and like, or you don't.

Back in the 80s I saw some great (and some terrible) shows, mostly jazz. As good as most jazz performances were, though, the single most awe-inspiring concert was Zappa's. I had listened to some of his stuff, thought it was inventive and interesting, but wasn't all that into it. (I spent most of those days in a John Coltrane/Sonny Rollins/Wayne Shorter kind of stupor). But then I saw what this guy and his band could do and came away changed.

I used to think the zappa stuff was just fly-by-seat-of-pants, like they hit record and threw it on the wall to see what stuck. Later, i learned it was written out beforehand, and he handpicked musicians who had the skill and talent to play the parts. For somebody who was out there as he was, and to be as anti-drug and drinking as he was (if you partook while you were in his band, you were fired), that level of creativity and control is frankly (pun inteneded) amazing.

Prince may be an amazing musician, with 500 albums in the can, but Frank's body of work has barely begun to be scratched. There is material archived that will take researchers decades to decipher. Musicographers will continue to delve into his catalog long after Prince is but a memory. There are numerous entire symphonies waiting to be played for the first time, from what I can recall reading about. There was some sort of synthesizer/composing device that Frank either invented or co-developed that is an amazing piece of equipment. And most people think he was just a writer of weird, funny songs.

Frank also had what was (at least at the time of his death) the world's largest video tape collection of news broadcasts of every network and station he could receive. He was a strong believer in catching the hypocrisy and doublespeak of the media and the politicos, and he did not trust them to archive it faithfully. He passed before the internet became what it is today, but I have no doubt he knew what was coming.

I am far from being a huge fan, but I am extremely impressed by the scope and breadth of his dedication to music, and the freedom to pursue the same, that he felt was under threat by the establishment. Frank had no love for the money mongering of the music business, but he would defend to the death your right to be as much of an asshole as you wish. Witness his scathing indictment of the witchhunt of the MPAA style attempt to rate music for lyrical content. His confrontations with Tipper Gore in those special committee hearings were epic.

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Originally Posted by Kap'n

He sure did. But they also had to play something. Frank composed challenging music for them to play.

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I once did an audition with some guys and Tom Fowler played bass,
he had some of Zappa's charts with him and we were checking it out. Holy crap! Tough stuff.

I just remembering listening to zappa saying, *shit, i could never play that!*
:laughing:

i more prefer music i can whistle to
(see, i'm a visual person :D)

If you can listen to some of Frank's better work and miss the incredible compositional inventiveness and stellar musicianship, its you!

You need Chunga's Revenge - listen to "Twenty Small Cigars". Hardly the same arpeggio and jangly guitar mentioned in the first post. Then try "Road Ladies" to hear frank scream the blues on the guitar. Now jump over to Hot Rats and listen to Peaches En Regalia with the headphones on. Shoot, there's so much more - try listening to the rest of Hot Rats. As usual, the radio plays the Joe's Garage stuff because it has more "commercial" potential. People who don't **get** FZ haven't been introduced to some of his best work. He was a genius.

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Originally Posted by JM3

Read last months guitar player. Frank is sorta profiled...

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I was about to mention the same article. His son is going to go and tour playing Frank's music. The article details how he had to re-learn his approach to playing to do it justice.

Great article.

Wait a minute.:wah:
There are people who buy Harry Potter books to look cool?
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Zappa's a guy you can't take lightly.
I can't really pop in some Zappa and vacuum or wash the car.
There's always something to pay attention to, whether it's potty humor, satire, or intricate and thrilling ensemble & solo playing.
You can't really ask for much more from a musician.
That doesn't mean you have to like any of it.
Zappa gets a lot of praise for technique and intellect, but his music can be really beautiful too.
"Watermelon In Easter Hay" and "Black Napkins" are some of the prettiest electric guitar playing I've heard.
Goosebumps.

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Originally Posted by NeoFauve

I can't really pop in some Zappa and vacuum or wash the car.

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No, but I have been known to work out to Zappa. I get into the zone, and don't think about the task at hand.

No, I don't use freeweights.

Funny, here at UNT, there's a month-long special class offered on Frank's music that ends Aug. 10.

DENTON (UNT), Texas -- Ask someone to name great music composers, and one might think of the usual suspects – Mozart, Beethoven and Strauss, to name a few.

Add Frank Zappa to the list.

"It does draw a special crowd of people because the music is not easy to listen to," said Klein, who traveled to Lodz, Poland, earlier this year to present a paper about social and political commentary in Zappa's work. "But people who listen to his music are really fanatical about it."

http://web2.unt.edu/news/story.cfm?story=9876

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Originally Posted by Kap'n

No, but I have been known to work out to Zappa. I get into the zone, and don't think about the task at hand.

No, I don't use freeweights.

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I agree.
Working out is different than chores though, especially w/earbuds. The right tuneage makes it flow.

Genius
Excellent guitar player
Creative
Has been my hero since I first listened to We Are Only in It for the Money. I named my rottweiler after him and she's now with him I hope.
There's a poster hanging right next to my computer - Franks b/w photo and "Kill Ugly Radio". I wish I could.
I miss him :glug

Ever listen to the LSO albums? Although I may be prejudiced since I was involved in the recording of those albums. Serious composition chops. So serious even the LSO pros couldn't play the parts properly. Frank told me he was not pleased with their inabilities to handle the music.

I just saw the Dweez do his Dad's work. I was aware of Frank in the late 60's . I somehow really dug Willie the pimp.

His guitar playing is very unique and different. Its not my main attration to him but its hard to deny the guy was doing some pioneering guitar work.

Kids! I have seen most of your hero's. Most of your hero's respect and worship Zappa's music.

In 77, I saw the Dec 31st New years show at the Forum. Frankly, I was going to see Todd Rundgren,(who cancelled do to a death of a band members Mom). My friend and I were totally BLOWN away at the show. Astounded!

Most commments above in support of Frank I totally agree with;especially the one about vacumming and putting on a Frank tune. THey need to be studied and listened to.

When I was a young dumbass in the early '70s I listened to Yes, Deep Purple, Moody Blues, Led Zep, Humble Pie, Queen, Pink Floyd etc.

A thespian club, fellow burner buddy with donkey silhouettes painted on his beetle like WWII bomb tallys, one for each donkey hit, ragged on the rest of us because we had no appreciation of Frank Zappa.

Couldn't help it, I just didn't get FZ.

Later, in the shred happy '80s, after reading a Steve Vai article in GP in which he mentioned that he transposed Frank's guitar work, note for note, by ear to paper which duly impressed Mr. Z to the point of getting Mr. V into the band, I thought maybe I should listen to Zappa again. I dug up a copy of OS and Apostrophe and became a fan.

I don't appreciate all of his work by any means but I can say that about anyone. A film producer I know has worked with FZ on several continents and turned me on to several live performance shows on tape. Some was inspired and some was tired.

But I still regard him as genius considering his fluency in composition, arrangement, imagination, innovation, humor, satire and he was a pretty darned smokin' guitarist as well.

Giving Tipper fits in the late '70s was pretty cool too.

TT

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Originally Posted by teleman1

In 77, I saw the Dec 31st New years show at the Forum. Frankly, I was going to see Todd Rundgren,(who cancelled do to a death of a band members Mom). My friend and I were totally BLOWN away at the show. Astounded!

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That must have been '76-'77 NYE. I saw him at the '77-'78 NYE show at Pauly Pavillion.

I don't get Zappa either, so I never sought out his music.
I think the only cut I ever heard was Valley Girls. I kind of liked it, but by this time I would have had to go back to Mothers of Invention and everything since to get it. They wore dresses.

Nah, I don't get it either. Now, if I'd spent money buying his music and investing the time to listen to it and I still didn't get it.....I'd be asking myself what could be more uncool than buying something because eveyrone else thought it was cool....and you don't get it? You could have bought an album that you liked. You feel like a dumbass. This festers for years...then one day....you think.....Is it just me??????

I couldnt agree with you more moon.....
:laughing:

FZ was funny. His music made me laugh more than anyone else he was a comic and musician smart too.

So was Cheech and Chong....LOL!!!
But they sounded better..

One problem lies in the idea that Frank Zappa is the leader of a conventional rock band, and so his work should be judged or understood by comparison to rock bands. This isn't the case. Frank Zappa was an avant-garde composer who worked most often in the context of a jazz-rock band. When you listen to the range of his work - from the camp parody of "Freak Out!," through the crazed cultural pastiche of "Lumpy Gravy," and on through the salad days of the live band that produced "Roxy & Elsewhere" you realize that this wasn't a rock band, and needs to be evaluated on a different scale.

Now, that doesn't mean you have to like it. But thinking he's a rocker because he wore and SG is as wrong as imagining he's a comedian because he refused to take serious subjects seriously. Frank was, above all, a composer and should be judged as such.

I think that the problem is,nowadays everyone is special,,,
That means you can suck but not see it,but if everyone buy's into it your great...
I prefer to find myself...