intonation or am i tone deaf?

This is driving me nuts. first Strat and first decent electric but ive been playing 8 or 9 years.

I've had my EJ 2/3 weeks and i cant seem to get the the G & B strings "in tune" for certain chord shapes above the 3rd or 4th fret. I guess it's an intonation problem.

I expected the EJ to setup properly for the factory 9's out of the box, but i have lowered the saddles quite a bit to get a lower action. other than that i havent touched it or changed the strings yet.

Probably a stupid question but can that have affected the intonation that much?

Also when i hit the B sting open when i'm tuning it i get a very faint but audible harmonic, sort of "tagging along". Could this be related or a problem with the nut or something?

I'd hate it if it was my ear that was letting me down but i dont think so. Maybe i just cant tune a guitar (dont have a tuneer but should probably buy a TU-2 or something. i've always used my piano for my acoustics).

I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to tuning. i cant play a guitar if its not REALLY properly tuned. Think its OCD.

Any ideas on what i can do about it? cause i cant afford to get it set up properly for another week or two.

Lowering the saddles can easily affect the intonation.

You may also be experiencing "Stratitis," a harmonic problem caused by too-strong magnetic pull on the strings (this seems especailly likely since you complain of the problem on the two strings you lowered.

Try lowering the pickups and see if it helps.

A guitar can't be perfectly in tune in every position. It's impossible.
But, unless you've got perfect pitch, you should be able to get it to sound great.

If you haven't checked and adjusted the intonation you should do so, or have a pro do it for you.

After that you can look at the nut, especially if you already suspect there's a problem with it. If the nut is not cut well it will cause severe intonation problems.

It could be a long "week or two".

Lowering the action will make the lowered strings play flat compared to their settings before lowereing.

Also, after lowering the saddles, the old string will have a remaining "bend" at the the saddle that will cause all sorts of tuning problems and "ghost" noises.

I'd start with new strings, then see about lowering the neck and middle pickups a little bit and check the intonation.

All good advice.

Most of what you describe sounds like intonation, so get some new strings on, stretch them in, get a tuner (so any worries you have about not being able to tune a guitar are covered), and set the intonation.

Lowering the pickups will sort out that string grab, and the weird harmonic will disappear.

Bet it sounds better. Go on, betcha :ola

thanks. will give all that a go.

Look at the saddles. Notice they are at different string lengths. Now look at the frets, they are all set up for the same scale. Intonation is an approximation, and not an absolute. Setting the intonation by a perfect octave at the 12th fret all but guarantees the 5th and 7th will be slightly off on some strings. It's the nature of the beast. You'll need to tweak and trust your ears.

But as noted, good strings and properly adjusted pickups will make a differnce. My guess is that when you lowered the strings you didn't lower the pickups as well, and you are getting the Stratitus mentioned above. And, Strats generally like a higher action than say, a Lester.

A compensated nut like the "Earvana" or similar might be worth considering... some people seem to like them a lot.

All tuning iinevitably nvolves compromises - it's called temperament. A guitar is designed to be basically an "equal temperamant" instrument -- which means, among other things, that your 4ths and 5ths are no longer "perfect". I think this is what OSA is alluding to when he described the 5th and 7th fret tuning being slightly off. But that's the point of equal temperament! The 4ths and the 5ths are supposed to be "off" (well, just by a little bit, anyway.) Trying to tune a equal temperamnet instrument so the 4ths and 5ths become "perfect" is just misguided however... the octaves should still be perfect however, so the 12th fret harmonic and fretting at the the 12th fret should agree.

Sounds like the problems you've got are outside of the normal temperament compromises, though. Might want to check your nut (or get a good tech to look at it) to see that there aren't any problems there.

-Mark

Mark, no, I mean notes fretted at the 5th and 7th frets will be off. The fret divisions are uniform but the string lengths vary. The lightly fretted 12th setting is a starting off point, but there are different compensations that come into play after that. depending on a player's style and technique, you may want to bias the intonation. My two Tele's for example, have different intonation schemes. One is set up more for rock and biased higher, and the other for country and rockabilly and is centered around the 7th fret for the bass strings and the 12th for the high strings. Which is funny, because country and heavy metal use the same setup.

But it makes sense, most players don't use the lower strings when they get up past the 12th, but rely on them heavily for chording and anchoring roots in the meaty part of the neck. But everyone has their own preference. It's all about using your ears to get it to sound right to you.

The main thing is realizing that there is no one way of doing it correctly. The 12th gets you in the ballpark is all, and you need to take it from there.

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

But everyone has their own preference. It's all about using your ears to get it to sound right to you.

The main thing is realizing that there is no one way of doing it correctly. The 12th gets you in the ballpark is all, and you need to take it from there.

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OK, yes, I agree 100%, this is very true; usually a style depending heavily on open chords, for example, will lead to a different bias than someone who wants reasonable intonation all over the neck... although reducing some of these differences is where the compensated nuts can help, though, as I understand it.

I've never used a compensated nut myself, but I can well believe they work, essentially making it easier to balance out the trade-offs a player usually has to put up with in these case.

Sorry Chuck if I misunderstood your point.

-Mark

christ. never even began to think about any of this stuff until recently and i didn't realise what i was getting myself into. I think i'll have to find a good tech to set it up for me, but we'll need to have a long chat before hand!

Do you think that intonation and tuning is something most guitarists think about in depth? I have a few friends who are excellent guitarists (one in particular has a real gift) but appart from handing it to someone in a guitar shop and saying "set it up for 11's with high action" i dont think they dwell too much on it.

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Originally Posted by dbrowne

Do you think that intonation and tuning is something most guitarists think about in depth?

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No. Not at all.

Most guitarists have no clue and are mystified that I even adjust intonation, let alone set it with a bias for playing styles.

For someone picky about tuning, I'd recommend learning the ins and outs. It can save a lot of headache.

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Originally Posted by Wilko

For someone picky about tuning, I'd recommend learning the ins and outs. It can save a lot of headache.

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Truer words never spoke.

Tenebrae

Do you think i could figure out how to do this myself from scratch? i don't mind spending time on it. are there any guides to setting up strats online?

The only thing i'd be wary of doing is neck adjustments, especially on the EJ cause it needs to be adjusted from the base so i'd have to take the pickguard off and ive never adjusted a neck like this before, but i have another guitar i can practice on.

It's very simple to do and understand. So simple, in fact, that the hang tag/booklet that came with old strats (and the reissues) tells you how to do it.

It doesn't need to be difficult as for most players a straight setup is best.

Know that the 12th fretted note needs to match the open string or harmonic. Different gauge strings, and the action makes adjusting necc. How high the string is changes how much the string needs to be stretched to reach the fret. Higher strings mean sharp notes, lower mean flat notes.
FIRST: set the action.
THEN:
If the 12th fretted note is sharp, lower it by moving the saddle toward the bridge. If the note is flat, move the saddle toward the pickups.

To "bias" figure out if you play hard or not. If you play hard you may want to let the fretted note be measured a tad "flat". Adjust to taste. Most common bias is to just set the "G" string a tad flat (they usually sound sharp for various reasons)

dbrowne, I, too, was leery of doing my own set-ups, and didn't think I would ever attempt a truss rod adjustment.

But now I set my own guitars up, and I do it better than anyone ever has. The secrets are:

1. Go slow and be patient. Speed comes with practice.
2. Go slow and be patient, especially with a truss rod adjustment. Let the wood settle.
3. Go slow and be patient while following these instructions: Fender Strat set-up guide

Adjust the truss rod w/ the guitar strung (pointless otherwise i realise) means i'm gonna have to remove the pickguard and pups and string the guitar then make the adjustments then take the strings off and put the pickguard etc.. back on and and put on a fresh set of strings. this is a lot of screwing and unscrewing if this is to be done semi-regularly, which i dont like to do cause it seems it will eventually wear out the tread in the wood. not to metion that i need 2 sets of strings every time its set up.

what a pain.

That's why I like locking tuners. You can leave the strings on even when you unbolt the neck. Heck, you can probably leave the strings on with slotted Klusons if you just go easy.

ANd remember than once you get it adjusted, you won't need to do it again for a long time... once you set saddle height and intonation, you may not need to do it at all. I only needed to do mine because the guy who used to set up my guitars retired from that business, and the last new guy I tried, the one who finally drove me to learn how to do it myself a couple years back, screwed up the truss rod so badly I had to fix it. Haven't had to touch it since.

Don't feel like you have to adjust everything every time. Forget the trussrod unless you hate your neck relief. Nut slots are hardly an issue. Don't mess with them.

After a good intonation setup all you gotta do is change strings. That intonation setup should last many years with the same gauge strings.

so is lowering the action done excluslively at the bridge?

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Originally Posted by dbrowne

so is lowering the action done excluslively at the bridge?

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Yes, if the nut height, neck relief and neck angle are right.

Thanks everyone for all the advice. much appreciated. and now i have a couple of people to blame if i make a mess of it.

if you have a 2-point trem you can leave the strings on. Just lower the tuning, detach the springs and lift the bridge out.

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

Mark, no, I mean notes fretted at the 5th and 7th frets will be off. The fret divisions are uniform but the string lengths vary.

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Food for thought. My initial reaction was that MOST frets are off in all scales, even with perfect intonation over the 12. fret (FRETTED notes). I even found that theoretically detuning the 3. string in open E should bring it in perfect synch withe the other strings (due to some sort of accident or "natural" rule that escape me a bit so far) - but - it doesn't work. Like I said - food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Offshore Angler

if you have a 2-point trem you can leave the strings on. Just lower the tuning, detach the springs and lift the bridge out.

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no, got a 6 point vintage trem.

Got a neck to remove/work on? Stick a plastic strip, wad of card under the trem (whatever works to keep it set pretty much where it would usually be), detune strings, place capo at the first fret. Bingo! No string hassles...everything is still attached, but workable. Do what it is that has to be done, reattach neck, remove capo....etc., etc.

Tenebrae

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Originally Posted by tenebrae

Got a neck to remove/work on? Stick a plastic strip, wad of card under the trem (whatever works to keep it set pretty much where it would usually be), detune strings, place capo at the first fret. Bingo! No string hassles...everything is still attached, but workable. Do what it is that has to be done, reattach neck, remove capo....etc., etc.

Tenebrae

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very good. but the trem is actually flush with the body (not my usual setup but i've grown to like it) so no need for the card trick.

http://i1.tinypic.com/neb3mf.jpg

Thanks for the pic, man!

I'm probably way off here, given that the instrument in question is an artist model that is probably "specced" quite individually, but does anyone else feel that those pickup heights are a tad high? And I would want to work a little with those saddles as well, just seem a little off ~ and yes, I realize we're dealing with a 12" board and staggered pole pickups.

Here's a link to Fender's setup guide for Strats. It's a generic "how to" guide, but it might prove interesting for you:

http://www.fender.com/support/setup/stratsetup.php

Tenebrae

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Originally Posted by tenebrae

... does anyone else feel that those pickup heights are a tad high?

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That's the first thing I noticed.

Not only are the pickups high, but it appears in the photo that the bridge saddles on some strings are not parallel to the bridge - they're slanted to one side.

Yep, the neck needs to be shimmed at the heel for one thing. But that bridge on the body - OUCH! Not good. That could be alot of the problem right there, along with the neck angle.

I love it, OA! I pussyfoot around using words like "tad high" to describe pickup height and "a little off" to describe what's going on at the bridge....and you say "ouch" and say it all :) :yay

Tenebrae

There's nothing wrong with riding the bridge flat on the body. No trouble comes from that.

About the shimming. It either needs shimming or the saddle screws could be shortened to get a smoother palm mute without injuries from protruding screws.

I like to set my saddles slightly angled in a nice curve matching the radius. My bridge pickup is high and the middle and neck not so high to avoid magnet pull.

I set my intonation with no bias and action is a tad higher on the bass side for heavier open chording.

Neck is arrow straight and overall action is low (helps ease of playing and intonation by having less stretching.

That shot was taken straight out of the box. i might stick up another wuth the current setup tomorrow. I was surprised that it was setup like this.

I've lowered the pickups a lot since that photo was taken. I've also lowered the saddles (as i said) and also strightened em out so they're not leaning to one side.

What do you mean by shim the neck? Also the neck is slightly concave. fenders guide says there should be some clearance here but whats the advantage/disadvantage of having it straight?

Bridge on they body is fine, i obvioulsy dont know a lot about this stuff but i do know that this is often done. hendrix did it for greater stability with tuning with 5 springs in the back (like i have) keeps it pretty much locked to the body so broken strings wont cause a shift in tuning. the trem arm can be used to lower the pitch, but it's so stiff you're unlikely to go lower than 1 whole step which also works well for tuning. also allows for really low action if thats what your into.

More images: Thread Link...

Strats tend to need a bit of relief (concave curve in neck) because the small radius. It helps reduce strings dying on the frets during bends in the upper register.

Shimming with a thin piece of hard material (Fender used cardstock) under the neck heel at the end to lift the point where the strings will meet the saddles. That way, you can raise the saddles enough so that the screws aren't sticking out into your hand.

With a wider fretboard radius you can get away with lower action and a straighter neck. I did a slight compound on mine so I can run my action real low.

All of these adjustments are interactive and affect other settings. Is really best to know all the factors in the "big picture" before doing many of these adjustments.

I've just got switched to 11's and set the intonation following ytou instructions and it's worked a dream. jsut one or two other questions.

what exactly do you mean by "setting the bias"?

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Originally Posted by Wilko

With a wider fretboard radius you can get away with lower action and a straighter neck. I did a slight compound on mine so I can run my action real low.

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my strat has a 12" radius, does this mean i can get away with a much straigher neck. not that i have a problem paying it as it is, but since putting on 11's there is bigger bend on the neck. What would benifits/disadvantages would you expect from a straighter neck relief?

I believe he is saying that he intonates it so that each string is in tune open, and fretted at the 12'th fret (the regular way, or with no bias). Some people intonate their guitars so that some of the strings are a little flat.

Yes, you should be able to set your neck almost dead flat. That's why EJ wanted a 12" radius board... so the neck could be really flat, and action could be set really low.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dbrowne

my strat has a 12" radius, does this mean i can get away with a much straigher neck. not that i have a problem paying it as it is, but since putting on 11's there is bigger bend on the neck. What would benifits/disadvantages would you expect from a straighter neck relief?

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If I was setting up your guitar I'd be looking at something in the vicinity of .010" (maybe even a touch flatter). That setting generally provides a nice player right from the get go (I set the relief on my PRS SE with a 10" radius at this and was good to go). Instruments with what I consider to be flat boards (14" and up) can go pretty flat. I run my Tele clone somewhere around .007"-.008" and that's with a 14" board...the action would be considered relatively low.

Whack a capo on the first fret, depress the low E string at the last fret and measure the gap between the top of the 8th fret and the bottom of the string...that's your relief. And yes, going to a heavier gauge means you'll need to adjust the truss rod....bigger wire means more force on the neck.

Of course, as Wilko states, if you had a neck with a vintage spec radius on the board, you'd be looking at quite a bit of relief.

Tenebrae