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So I bought a set of Abby Strat pickups a couple of years ago and I haven't dropped them in a Strat yet -- shame on me. I've read some different things about them, like the "limited 50's" version I got was hand wound, while the 50th anniversary 1954/2004 Strat version is machine wound under Abby's supervision. Does anyone have the lowdown on the way the name Abigail Ybarra gets thrown around by Fender? What's up, I'm in the dark on what the whole "Abby" pickup label means.
The best info I can give you is to simply install the p'ups and listen. Then form your own opinion and share it with us. You stand in a unique position at this moment, where your thoughts have not yet been tainted by others opinions. The slate is clean. Take advantage of this opportunity and let us know what YOU think!
she wound pickups in the 50's. heck, she might be there longest employed person there. i think she invented pickups. :rl but do what tb says imo.
She was also supposed to have wound PUPs for Hendrix. She is a legend at Fender. Possibly more PUP winding experience than anyone on the planet. Seymour Duncan has also consulted her regarding Strat PUPs.
I just installed a set of CS 69s in my SRV. The Fender web site indicates that these PUPs were designed and created by her. They have her initials and a date on the back of each PUP.
While they just went in last night I am pretty pleased with the sound. Now my SRV sports these PUPs and a single layer white pickguard.
I installed CS 69's in my 63 Replica and really love them..they are very balanced and work excellent with all-tube amps and stompboxes..
Since I know a thing or two about pickup winding I tought some folks might be interested to know that the way a coil is wound, although somewhat important, is not the MOST important element in sound production.
Magnets play a HUGE part, then type and size of wire is also quite important. In my view handwound don't mean much really. Anyway, humans can not repeat things consistently like a machine can, they get bored, thoughts drift, maybe they feel a need to visit the toilet, perhaps they had a bad night sleep or suffer backache. All these things affect human peformance.
In all probabbility how those pickups sound has little to do with who wound them and more to do with decisions about materials made by someone else. Well paid marketing people are quick to spot opportunities to increase sales.
My EXACT thoughts!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Kinman
Let me get this straight, Abbey might have to go to the bathroom sometime, therefore her skills as a pickup artist are somehow discounted and we should all buy Kinman's?
Somebody needs to take a shill pill.
That's not the point. The point is that a machine can wind more consistently for a longer time because it does not get tired.
Possible it's those "imperfections" in the winding job when hand wound, which give the pickup character. But it will also give an inconsistent sound. Maybe not a bad sound, just a bit different between every pickup.
Don't get your knickers in a twist, Tele Jr. Another forum member was offering some information about a topic in which he has experience. There was no disparaging of Abby's abilities or an incitement to buy some other brand. Just a simple observation of what is most critical in the construction of a pickup and one of the key differences between machine-winding and hand-winding.
Geez, I think it's terrific that various people involved in the music industry at all different levels and areas participate in this forum and offer their insight.
Exactly photoweborama and curtisstetka, as I stated my point was >>>In all probability how those pickups sound has little to do with who wound them and more to do with decisions about materials made by someone else.<<<
meaning the designer of the pickup.
I'm sure Abbey does a great job of winding, I never said she didn't. However no human can wind as consistently as a machine. Artists never paint the same picture twice, they always have the urge to create something different. I think questions have to be asked about employing a so called pickup artist to attempt to mimic a machine in producing hundreds upon hundreds of similar products with unwavering consistency. If anyone could do that would they be an artist?
In a perfect world the Artist should create the prototype and then train the machine to repeat their creation. But such winding machines do not exist. Marketing people know very well no-one thinks of such questions and so a kind of deception achieves success. That was the other point I was making about marketing and the use of deception. Personally I have an intense dislike of deception when manufacturers market products which have little merit over others but sell them for a premium price.
But look, many folks get ecstatic at the prospect of having a set of Abbey pickups, after all she is a legend. So in the end I guess it doesn't matter because folks are happy. But it's fun and interesting discussing different aspects of pickups, marketing and product development in the name of enlightenment.
You mean the CyberTwin doesn't really have robots insde rewiring the amp, and it's imitating, not innovating? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Kinman
While possibly it is only Fender Marketing doing its thing, but the Fender web site indicates that Abby did indeed design these PUPs.
Design CAN mean many things. She certainly designed the winding pattern. But the magnets? Who really knows? As far as I understand it she was a production winder from Leo's days, not an electrical engineer capable of REAL design. I would think Bill Turner more qualified to REALLY design a pickup than a production winder. A production winder would necessarily have to be heavily involved in TESTING and sonic EVALUATION in order to make meaningful contributions and be capable of designing a pickup from the ground up.
Maybe there are gaps in Fender's CV on Abbey but with what I know I doubt that very much. Someone said to me that it seemed to be a lot of hot air, a good portion of legendary mystic, a dash of mystery and boutique limited production capped off with a confidence price tag, when in fact they are regular single coil pickups with a fancy label that may not all be consistently the same. I tend to agree.
To me its about getting the tones I hear in my head out,not the voices but the tones.I dont care who winds the pickups I use.Every company has sales B.S. to hawk their gear.I've bought many a magic bean in the 36 years I've played.Some were magic and some were good in chilli.I have spent the bucks for some boutiqe pickups that had this dif and that special mag and.....saddly they didnt work for me.Good pickups I am sure the guy I sold them too loves them,for me they didnt inspire me to play,they didnt spur me to push the limits.In my wood the didnt have it whatever it is.They didnt have the big add dollars but they had the music press pushing them all the same.I found some pickups that sounded better in my wood "really better" it was a search but that is part of the adventure in the game.The pickups I use were cheaper than the special name ones but that doesnt matter.What matters is I found a set of pickups that work in my guitar to the extent that it inspires me to play...
Yes folks, there you have it, the BEST reason to change pickups. They way they inspire you and stimulate you to create great music. It's all about the feeling you get when you plug in. Thanks blinddog.
NP I usually just watch and read but sometimes I cant help but chime in.We all know it but sometimes the nagging questions get the better of us.Will it make me sound like Duane?Do I sound like Stevie?Does it sound like the record?Reference tones consume us,find your own even if its like someone elses,but push the boundries create something new use the tools that inspire.
You know what is really funny is since I started recording I found how tone at times does not matter. I play a solo that sounds drab, and then I run it through a few plug-ins and then it sounds incredibly awesome. Just like when I record vocals.. They sound blah, then I do a few things, and they sound hot and punchy.
Trying to get the tone on records is impossible because the artist probably never had that tone either. :hee
Chris, I think you're wasting your time, sometimes, giving insight into a field most people know nothing about.
Some people, as seen in this thread, jump the gun and believe that just because it's not a product marketed with your name attached to it that it's inferior when nothing of the kind is even implied. Some others will challenge your reasoning even despite the fact they have no valid knowledge on the matter ; only (uneducated) opinions.
Some others actually read and learn. I'd like to think that it's people like that that will keep you posting. As a personal suggestion, I'd recommend leaving uninformed skeptics' comments the appropriate reply ; nothing. Some of these previous comments were downright insulting, IMHO.
I don't care who or what winds the pickups. As Chris said, it's the magnets and the relationship between them and the coil that determines the "character" of the pickup. Inductance is the bottom line.:D
Start-Mangler, thanks for your thoughts and comments,,,and support. Just so long as some people like me posting I'll continue. I would be the first to realize that no matter what is said someone will take it the wrong way, because they are on a completely different wavelength. I don't take offense from them because I realize it's not me with the problem. Anyway it's all entertainment and a bit of fun......just dont take it too seriously. But it is disappointing in a way because I thought (hoped) that hostility resided solely on 'that other forum', not here.
Very interesting discussion!
I have a set of Abbey's in one of my strats. I purchased them more for the time period that they were supposed to replicate ('69). I have a '73 strat that had the original pickups lost and wanted a suitable, time period appropriate replacement. These seemed close. (I did read several user reviews before committing, though)
This brings up a very good point about marketing. The mere fact that Fender calls them "Custom '69's" gave me the impression that they would be suitable for my needs. Was the fact that Abigail whats her name did the winding bold marketing on Fender's part? Not really, not for me. IMO, I think it lent an interesting side note if anything.
How many manufacturer's throw the word 'vintage' around? Are manufacturers really trying to replicate something from the past while simultaneously coming up with new innovations? Or, is the word 'vintage' just too powerful of a reference point to avoid.? It would be interesting to do a test study using identical pickups where one set is called 'vintage' so and so..and the other something totally new.
I just love that there is competition and so many choices out there.
Now we are going somewhere, a foray into the word "Vintage",,,,, wahhhhoooooo. Vintage is too good a term to not use, but it must be understood. The way I see it there is 'new' vintage and 'aged' vintage. The 'new' type should sound like an aged one did when it was new. If you are awake you should be able to think of a whole bunch of questions.
For example what did an old pickup sound like back then? and why do they age? and can anyone reproduce one with modern materials? Also how many players have heard a genuine old aged pickup? I have some first hand experience in this fascinating arena and my investigations/observations/experiences shatter some popular myths (marketing, again). Should I go on?
Now Fender is accused of using deceptive business practices for using Abby's name? It's one thing to pimp your own products, but to directly attack a main competitor and accuse them of deceptive business practices in a public forum is a but hostile and over the top, and is no doubt more reflective of Mr. Kinman's charachter than Abby's abilities or Fender's business ethics.
I think he was talking in generalities. There's a lot of marketing voodoo bullshit spread in this here industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tele Jr
Having FMIC file one of it's frivolous lawsuits against you might also color your opinion of the company. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Chris Kinman]
That was the other point I was making about marketing and the use of deception. Personally I have an intense dislike of deception when manufacturers market products which have little merit over others but sell them for a premium price.
END OF QUOTE
Given the topic title and the context and content of the posts, this is not a general comment. Despite the rather passive agressive attack style of Mr. Kinman, this statement quite obviously is meant to be connotated directly toward Abby and Fender.
I think that when Mr. Kinman's comments are so flagrantly over the top, especially in light of the serious conflict of interest he has with this subject, he only disqualifies the objectivity of his own opinion.
I think there is an ethical line that a vendor shilling on a discussion page crosses between promoting one's own company, and directly and personally attacking your competition with careless and reckless accuasations about unethical or deceptive business marketing practices. If you guys here don't see that or care about that then mock on.
Lighten up Francis.......
I do not see Chris promoting his own products in this thread at all. Never once did he say "my pickups, on the other hand do...".
He was just stating facts about pickups in general. That's it. Never once on this thread had he plugged his own product. Unless you consider he name to be plugging his own product. I don't.
I know nothing about Kinman pickups except the name. I have no stock in his company. I'm not a Kinman advocate. Heck, we have a strong relationship with WD and Duncan and get lots of pickups comped to us all the time....
However, I do know he is not plugging his company and just stating general facts about pickups in general on this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tele Jr
See what I mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Strat-Mangler
What Motojunkie said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Motojunkie
That was my original thought, forgive me if my comments seem overly sarcastic, but this thread just makes me feel too much like an American political ad designed to passively aggresively bring up an opponents negatives.
Chris, I for one, value your input to this thread. I hope that you continue to hang out with us, and share your expertise as well as your opinion.
Wow...there's a lot to digest here. First of all, I'm trying to decide if Strat-Mangler's intitial comments were aimed at least partially at me.
I was first and foremost trying to answer the original question: why the name Abby Ybarra is tossed around with such reverence at Fender. While I'm not sure the things I've read are completely accurate, to the best of my knowledge, my original post is an accurate description of Abby.
My second post responded to Chris' comment on the designer, as opposed to the winder, being the critical element. My response there was again what I believed to be the statements on the Fender web site. Actually in this case I stand corrected, as the site only says created, and I'm not sure that such a statement encompasses design.
I appreciate the fact that someone in the business, such as Chris, takes the time to get involved in these discussions. I only know him via the reputation he has among some of the crowd here, but he is spoken of in high regard. I will admit, though, that I wasn't sure what to think of the tone of his original post (no offense intended).
Overall I don't believe that Chris has tried to promote his products in any manner in this thread. So I'm gonna try to move this discussion back to a better direction.
First, let me state that I bought my CS-69s because of the description of how they were supposed to sound and the era they were intended to capture. I am still evaluating them to see if the Fender claims are on the money or not.
I am also very interest in the discussion that Chris has started regarding vintage sound and the idea of vintage vs. aged vintage. From the perspective of a player, and not an expert on pickup construction or design, my take is that much of the music that I enjoy was created on pickups that were new, or close to new.
Now considering the vintage guitar market (not sure really how great of an indicator this is but let's ive it the benefit of the doubt) I suspect that in some instances these pickups and guitars sound at least as good if not better than when they were new. But, and this is an important but, I understand that there is a great degree of variability in vintage instruments, and there are a ton of clunkers out there. Maybe this is largely driven my the variability of things like hand winding, etc.
I do know that I'm impressed by the tone of a set of "aged" Telecaster PUPs that a buddy has in he MIJ 62 Tele Custom RI. So what's the story here? Has the aging hype contributed to the sound of these PUPs. Maybe more importantly, will all the grim and debris that ot appears these PUPs were subjected to affect their life and tone over time?
If this thread is pissing you off, Tele Jr, go elsewhere and be happy. There are several of us here who would like to hear what Chris has to say.
I for one am extremely curious about the concept of pickups "aging"
Can't we all just get along? Here's an idea: Let the mods do their job and discuss ideas rather than couching them in ad hominem attacks.
On the question of aged pickups: I know that Jerry Garcia changed his pickups every year or so through the 80s and 90s, believing that they lost some agression. Ironically, his tone bit during these years (sterile and thin with no bottom). I always thought the concern was obsessive -- not to mention misplaced -- but this thread seems to suggest that he was onto something.
I'm glad Chris is here also. He knows a whole lot more about the construction of pickups than I will ever know. All I know is you solder them in and don't get a cold joint... :hee
I think the mods are doing their job on this thread.. There is a fine line and I don't think it has been crossed here. Maybe getting close at times, but not crossing it.
As far as aged vintage, from what I understand is that magnets and wire break down over the years, and to simulate that break down, they use Alnico 2 magnets instead of 5. I know there are other things, but that's a start...