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Compression and mastering... People have asked me also.
Commercial CD's seem to be highly compressed and the volume is pretty high, but they don't sound like junk. They seem to have a nice dynamic range.
When I final compress a song it sounds like junk and has no life...
How do the big boys do the final master compression?
Waves L1 or L2 Ultramaximizer. It's available as hardware or plugin. What software are you using to master and burn from?
Good reading
Just Sound Forge 4.0 and B's Recorder Gold.
Hit me with a email here at work or gimme a call (310)449-3671...
I use Waves L1 software on just about every project I do. I will use it as an insert on my stereo master out.
I also like T-racks for mastering a stereo .wav.
I really think we really have the best people with the most REAL experience here on TFF...
The L1 is on everthing I do as well. I use it as a plug in Wavelab for CD masters, and Mp3's.
i use a limiter inserted on my master. i have a couple different ones on pro tools so i just use what sounds best for the song. if you guys are using pro tools, do yourself a favor and buy some nice plug ins. the digi rack stuff is decent, but the expensive stuff is totally worth the money.
but i also comp the rest, and depending on how much limiting i do, i'll turn down the others so it doesn't so "too" compressed and lifeless.
I've got all the Bomb factory stuff, but I use it on individual tracks. I don't mix or master in ProTools, I just use PT when I want to print a specific plugin (like the moogerfooger or Voce Spin) to a track. I still prefer to mix in Vegas and master in Wavelab. The Waves plugins really are awesome sounding. Set the L1 on 16 bit final master and your pretty much done.
Yep, that's the preset I use as well.Quote:
Originally posted by fezz parka
Set the L1 on 16 bit final master and your pretty much done.
Photo has the asked questions I've been meaning to ask you recording gurus. What about sound cards? What do you guys use? Or, how important is a good card? Been thinking about upgrading from my cheap SB LIVE (value edition) to a 24 bit Soundblaster Audigy. Would that improve the quality of the recording?
24 bit is always better than 16. I wouldn't get a Soundblaster though. Try an Echo Mia card. They're affordable and GOOD. I use one in my home studio.
Thanks, Fezz. I'll check out the Mia. :D
I'm working on it. I've not tried the L1 yet. I'm just having fun...
That's all RTAS-only, right? No VST or DX?Quote:
Originally posted by fezz parka
I've got all the Bomb factory stuff...
Right. RTAS only. If there was a way to use 'em in Vegas, I'd never click on my ProTools icon!Quote:
Originally posted by Bongolation
That's all RTAS-only, right? No VST or DX?
When I was using my Win98 system with Cubase & Wavelab, my favorite mastering technique was to use the Loudness Maximizer (although judiciously :cool: ) and the Peak Master so that I never clipped.
I'm a little lost trying to Master all within my ProTools LE system right now. I have gotten some nice results with the Bomb Factory BF76 on the stereo master track, but I haven't figured out how to snag clips from happening.
Should I be using the RTAS Limiter plug for that, or is there a better way? Any ideas?
Does your ProTools/Bomb Factory package have the 1176? That should do the trick. Waves makes RTAS stuff as well. The L2 Ultramaximizer is awesome, I just haven't bought it yet...
Yeah, sorry. That "BF76" I mention is the 1176, and you're right, it really does great on the master track.
I was just wondering if I can effectively prevent the occasional clip light with a limiter plug too, or is that basically just defeating the purpose of the 1176?
Thanks Chris--really appreciate your feedback.
I still can't get it to burn CD's but that's OK, I get really great results with L1. It works really good. I just burn to a CD regular for now. Not Red Book, but I still have at lest five songs to finish before I will need to do that. I have two written already, just need to record them...
The next two are serious songs.... That's hard to do for me...
hey jack,
i just wanted to share what i do with a mix.
i just about always use the LA2A plug in on the master strip in pro tools. i have a setting i came up with called "the warmer". basically it is equal in, equal out no compression. with a song that will clip a couple times (like 2 or 3) i will turn the compression up ever so slightly.
if the peaks don't get taken away. i will just turn down the master a little. and bounce to disk. then import the bounce to peak. and do the final compression and limiting in there. if that is the case. i will bounce with the peak at -1 db. and then make up the difference in peak.
i find limiting to be the best solution to curbing peaks. i also compress everything else, as minimal as possuble (though i do comp some stuff really heavily).
it is hard to get everything kosher. so really i just try to get a good mix that sounds good and doesn't peak out. i don't really try to make it sound like a commercial cd. they have so many tricks and cool effects that i know that i'll never really get my mix to sound like theres. i do try to get close though.
this post has turned kinda long. just wanted to share what i do. i know fezz will have some to say on this. listen to him though. i'm not at the position his is (i wish i was though!).
have a good one man, and have fun mixing your stuff!
chuck
Chuck,
Thanks so much for this info--it is most welcome and won't bother me if you go on at length, given how new I am to the whole ProTools thing.
One of my undergrad degrees was in "Commercial Music," which included a heavy focus in Audio Engineering. In those days [hitches up pants] we were using 24-track, 2" tape machines, and what little mastering we did in house was with a DBX stereo compressor and a nice EQ. And of course, in those days [leans heavily on cane] we liked a bit of peaked signal going to our 1/2" tape master for "warmth."
So first of all, excuse my ignorance--but what does LA2A stand for?
Secondly, give me a good example of how you use a limiter (lets say the stock DigiRack Limiter plug) to control peaks without messing with the compression structure?
I assume you'd put the comp first and the limiter last (ignoring dither for a moment)?
Thanks for your advice. Fezz definitely is the Pro among us, but I'm interested in how any and all people use ProTools.
Well so far with what I have been playing with, since my CD burner is not supported in Wavelab, I do a three-step process and it seems to be working out well.
1. I use a stereo expander
2. I use a limiter. I don't really know what I'm doing with it, but I've heard others in this thread say they need it, so..
I set it to -5 on the input and 0 on the output.
3. I run it through the L1's final mix optimization and that seems to be doing the trick. It sounds pretty good so far.
The 1176 is a FET peak limiter, the LA2A is an optical compressor/limiter. Read the PDF manual that comes with the Bomb factory stuff. Great info in there (way better than what I can yank out of my head!)Quote:
Originally posted by Jack w/his radar
Yeah, sorry. That "BF76" I mention is the 1176, and you're right, it really does great on the master track.
I was just wondering if I can effectively prevent the occasional clip light with a limiter plug too, or is that basically just defeating the purpose of the 1176?
Thanks Chris--really appreciate your feedback.
Mark, the L1 is a peak limiter. If your .wav are already 16 bit 44.1kHz, set the IDR to Quantize-none, Dither-none, Shaping-none. It will sound better if you do this.Quote:
Originally posted by photoweborama
Well so far with what I have been playing with, since my CD burner is not supported in Wavelab, I do a three-step process and it seems to be working out well.
1. I use a stereo expander
2. I use a limiter. I don't really know what I'm doing with it, but I've heard others in this thread say they need it, so..
I set it to -5 on the input and 0 on the output.
3. I run it through the L1's final mix optimization and that seems to be doing the trick. It sounds pretty good so far.
Cool, I'll do this tonght. I may change my CD burner just to be able to use wavelab. It would be a lot easier.
jack,
i set my limiter either last, or second to last on my master strip. second to last if i need to do any e.q.ing. the trick to using a limiter is just like using a comp. you need to find the sweet spot with the attack and release so that it doesn't pump and breathe. the threshold really plays into this too. if any of these are set too drastically then you will be able to hear the limiter kick in, which you don't want. i usually check my compression and limiting on headphones. it is very isolated and you will be able to hear the effects more easily.
then i just start moving the parameters around until i find something that works and sounds good. i will also from time to time limit drums or other instruments depending on if i want a compresses sound or limited sound. they are different, play with them and you'll hear what i'm talking about. i usually use limiting if it is a dance track or rap song, or something that needs "that" sound. you know what i'm talking about, a hard aggressive sound that is loud but never gets louder or quieter.
also from time to time i will double compress or double limit. stacking them on top of eachother and working that way. i do this if i am working with a song that needs to sound heavily comped or limited, but i don't want it to sound choppy. when i do this i lighten up the limiting or compression on the units, but when combined they have the desired ratio. say for instance that you decide an 12:1 compression ratio makes the song sound perfect. but you want the compression to sound a little more transparent, but still do the same job. in this case i would set both to 6:1 or one to 4:1 and the other to 8:1. that way the comps aren't working as hard to get the desired effect.
just a couple of the things i do. and don't be embarrased about tracking in the "old" days. i work very hard to get my stuff to sound like that. it is difficult on pro tools, but you can get close.
before i forget, you have to be very careful with compression and limiting cause if you use too much the music starts to sound lifeless. i am always fighting myself to lighten up on the compression. i find myself a lot going into default mode and compressing more than i need to. i'm sure others go thru this also. so i find the best way to combat this is to go in with a game plan that is written down and start mixing. listen to the mix after you get it where you think it sounds good, and then look at your plan. did you achieve it?
i find more and more that good engineering is more import than an extensive plug ins cache or mixing tricks. the old adage "you can't polish a turd" applies in the studio. i've done and heard some great mixes that were done with the digi rack stuff. i'm not saying they're the best, and i definitely think upgrading the plug ins and also buying some good ones is a must, but they serve their purpose and get the job done. plus they are a great tool to learn what each effect does. but i must say that i cannot stand digi verb. that shit sucks.
anyways, gotta jump in the shower now and get to school. have a good one man.
chuck
Great answers. Thanks Chuck & Chris!
What about compression? should I do anything with that? Before the L1?
I usually use compression on the mixdown (kick, bass, vox). In the final master, I use the Waves Q10, the TruVerb, and the L1.Quote:
Originally posted by photoweborama
What about compression? should I do anything with that? Before the L1?
So on the truverb you said you use a room sim, but click off the final reverb, right? Do I have Q10? if so, and seggested settings?
So far I ran the stuff through the L1 straight and it turned out really good.
Yep. It tends to help everything sound like it was recorded in the same room.Quote:
Originally posted by photoweborama
So on the truverb you said you use a room sim, but click off the final reverb, right?
You should have the Q10 in there. It's a 10 band EQ. I usually cut 1db @ 315hz, and boost 1 db @ 10khz, but use your ears. They're the best tools you've got.Quote:
Do I have Q10? if so, and seggested settings?
Ears? Did you send me a set of those too?:DQuote:
Originally posted by fezz parka
use your ears. They're the best tools you've got.
OK, I'M SET!!!
Thank you again, and I'm excited!
One more quesiton..
The B's Recorder Gold that came with my Sony CD writer has a Disk At Once option. I can enter track names and album infomation then.
When I play it back on a computer it says its an "Unknown Album" gives the date and the total CD time.
Someone else put it in their computer and it pull some different album and a bunch of track names off the internet.
Is it producing a Red Book CD this way?
Photo, I have one thought--
Are you sure you're not confusing the titling with CDDB lookup?
Whenever I burn a redbook CD, if I play it in my car (which has one of the next gen CD players in it that can read titles) it knows exactly what the title is and the song titles.
If I put it in my stereo's 4-year-old CD player, it just says track times.
HOWEVER!!! if I put it into my computer and my MusicMatch program or Windows Media Player get a hold of it, the "automatic lookup" feature kicks in and it goes to the "CDDB" (via internet) to try to figure out what CD it is. It compares the number of tracks and length of each of the tracks with its database of nearly millions of commercially released CDs. When it doesn't recognize my CD, it asks me to choose a couple of close ones.
One time I put a CD of my own design in it and it thought it was Sting CD. The next time I played it, it thought it was a Beethoven CD.
Don't know if this is what's up, but it's a suggestion.
FWIW--"RedBook" audio has nothing to do with track names per se, it's a method of burning audio onto a CD such as can be read by any commercial CD player--basically it means a Stereo-Interleaved file recorded at a sample rate of 44.1 Khz and a bit rate of 16.
The info you typed in is in the .cda file. "Disc at once" means it doesn't shut off the laser between tracks like "track at once" (using TAO gives you a 2 second gap). I always burn DAO.
"Red book". It is named after one of a set of books that contain the technical specifications for all CD and CD-ROM formats.
The physical parameters and properties of the CD are specified as well as the form of digital audio encoding (16-bit PCM), the optical 'stylus' parameters, deviations and error rate, modulation system and error correction, and subcode channels and graphics.
A "Red Book CD" basically means you can take the CDR master, along with a PQ list, to a manufacturer to have commercial CD's pressed up.
Ok, I think I undstand. It does not create a PQ list as far as I know. Still just audio.
I use that software and drive on one of my systems at work. Don't use the Disk at Once feature. Just choose type of disc-audio, and drag the tracks into the write window. I burn audio discs frequently using this procedure on the Song CD-RW and never have had a problem. Give it a shot and see if it works for you.Quote:
Originally posted by photoweborama
The B's Recorder Gold that came with my Sony CD writer has a Disk At Once option.