Cunetto Era Stratocasters - 1996 - 1998

Greetings to all

Re; Cunneto Era Stratsw 1996 - 1998 - This is one long question, just respectively warning you out front here & thank you for your indulgence.

I would surmise that this subject has been discussed on this forum in the past, and I have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to get specific information about these specific guitars, frankly, all over the internet, as well as inclusive of chatting with Fender Customer Service - They were no help whatsoever, and seemed to know little on the subject whatsoever, and apparently, their detailed record keeping does not go back further than 2004 - that was strange

I understand the entire history of Cunetto, relationships with Fender, history of the entire notion of relicing, and its apparent start with these Cunetto Strats, and I suppose Tele's, that were marketed by Fender 1996 - 1998, unfortunately, in my humble opinion, a questionable endeavor at its very core essence of existence as a product.

What ever happened to the notion of aging your own guitars, personally, through play, perhaps the Eddie Van Halen methodology, and/or thinking of sending your perfectly finished ax to your day care center along with a few plastic tools for the kiddies to go to town, as an alternative .

Nevertheless, I understand how they came to be, how they accidentially became a major product line, and international trend, all commencing out of NAMM 2004.

The issue that I would put to the membership concerns solicitation pursuant to;
(1) actual specifications for these instruments,
(2) How, if in any way, they differ from regular CS production instruments, (3) were they all CS issued during 1996 - 1998,
(4) are some or all Masterbuilt (I doubt that they could possibly all be MB, since there were allegedly 4800 made in 2.5 years),
(5) Are most Cunetto's typical CS production runs (whatever that may mean - e.g. making 4800 guitars in 2.5 years, must involve a fair amount of non-MB activities or automation within the CS at large, whatever that may inply, or in reality be the processes specific to building Cunetto's; And again, ignoring the relicing process, which I have found lots of material on this relationship and processes -
(6) There is a question as to whether there are different levels of Cunetto relicing, as I have seen only several of these, however, the ones that I have seen, have different degrees of relicing, such as similar to the differences in terminology such as NOS, Closet Classic, Time Machines, Reliced, Extreme Relicing, etc.
(7) What would be some of the intransic, tangible, and/or intangible build qualities and actual specifications associated with these Cunetto's, e.g. components used, overall fit and finish, playability, tone, quality and spec for the hardware, pickups tuners, and electronics (what were the actually electronics used), underlying wood qualities and types, and whatever else would differeniate these guitars from regular CS production run instruments and/or MB guitars.
(8) How would one place a market value on these instruments, beyond the mystique of the name Cunneto. “Blue Book values”, right or wrong, love or hat ethem appear to not acknowledge anything particular special about these Cunetto Models vs. any Custom Shop Relic at large, and right, wrong, or indifference, seem to put a value proposition at ~ $ 3,000 or so, and that would be getting it all;
(9) As I have researched these myriad of questions, I have of late seen Cunneto's priced all over the board IN THE SECONDARY PRE-OWNED marketplace (new price in 1996 - 1998 was around $ 2,800 - $ 3,400, or so I understand
(10) Accordingly, prioces ranging from $ 1,800 (possibly a beater), $ 2,000 - was an extreme relic so who knows, and $ 3,000 and change - BTW - all were off white or Desert sand in color with anodized gold metal pickguards
(11) Last, but not least, were there special sub-production runs of these Cunneto's, other than the overall run of ~ 4,800

I have recently bumped into 3 - (COA signed by Page and ad allegedly implies that it is a Masterbuilt instrument by Black, with the Cunetto addition of very light relicing - almost a NOS look & back of headstock embossed with CS # XX of 20) in Desert Sand; another at $ 5,400 (# X of 20 - same deal with Page, Black, & Cunneto), and finally, I just came across an another allegedly special run of 10 - XX of 10 embossed on back of headstock - COA signed by Page, and allegedly masterbuilt by Cruz with Cunneto relicing for $ 8,000 or something crazy like that

SUMMARY - So, I am specifically trying to understand the specific specs for these instruments, trying to understand, if any, the underlying value proposition for these specific instruments in general, as well as anything tht could potentially make these limited runs of 10 & 20 - allegedly Masterbuilt by Black & Cruz accordingly - how would one even confrim such a thing) - all these unanswered questions vs. prices for regular Custom Shop Relics, Closet Classics, NOS models, and/or whatever other terminology that Fender invokes, in yet another version of the same instrument.

I have owned several Fender Custom Shop instruments over the years, and while very nice, I have not historically seen any inherent and incremental value proposition to command extraordinarily huge price premiums for the Custom Shop work in general, let alone these Cunetto's, and especially these sub-production runs of 10 & 20 mentioned above.

This entire story, sort of engenders similarities to Gibson & Murphy, and the huge price differentials commanded in the marketplace for a Murphy finish, of which I hade 2, bought at reasonablly sane prices, and as a former Gibson fan, there is nothing special about these, other than the Murphy name on the COA.

As a personal aside, I am clearly not talking about relicing here – I hate relicing to the max, as a concept and marketing blitz plan laid on the public domain, and I, for one, would not spend one incremental dollar for a relic’d instrument, in and of itself – I happen to think this insane phenomenon is sheer marketplace-driven insanity, at the very ridiculous and extreme notion of up-charging significant dollars, for the luxury of getting a perfectly good guitar finish, and screwing it up - TOWARD WHAT END, I ASK YOU.

Thanks to the membership, and to anyone that fights their way through the long-winded question, however, there are a lot of unknowns here, and no information that I have found to address these matters.

Any info and/or ;links to that information would be greatly appreciated, as I am considering purchasing (actually bartering with one of my LPR9's) for this one instrument mentioned above, # XX of 20, and have no idea what they are worth (I am thinking in reality, $ 3,000), why the market premiums if anyone is paying that kind of money, and what would be a fair price for one - 1998, EC+, little to know play, formerly owned by a vault queen collector, Candy, COA, Desert Sand/Gold anodized pick guiard (what is the deal with that), very light relicing, allegedly a Page signed COA, Black Masterbuilt allegedly, although how would one determine as such, and reliced by Cunnato

I am not a vintage collector that is betting on future valuations - I buy what I like to play as a hobbyist, and player of many years, and I am not a business

So what is the question again?

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Originally Posted by 71818

So what is the question again?

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Distilled down,

Simply what makes these Cunneto's special, if anything at all, other than relicing

Were there limited runs of 10 and 20 that were truly Masterbuilt and different/better/special vs the rest of the 4800 of them

what are the actual specs for this instrument - hardware, pickups, body countour, wiring, tuners, etc., all the things that people that actually play guitars would care about?

Forget about relicing - Is it great player, tone machine, and true to the heritage of a 50's strat, or strictly Fender marketing bullshit relicing and building a new marketplace

What are they worth today in $$$, and are they worth the apparent premium based on anything of significance, or were these essentially built for the pseudo collectors of vault queens.

Does anyone who plays the guitar, play this guitar, and for what reasons.

Do the command price premiums, and if so, for what reasons, other than stupid relicing.

Are they really any different than any old run of the mill Custom Shop Closet Classic, Time Machine, NOS, and whatever other terminology Fender has employed to market the same instrument for the last 60 years.

Does this help?????????????

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Originally Posted by Wyndsong

Distilled down,

Simply what makes these Cunneto's special, if anything at all, other than relicing

Were there limited runs of 10 and 20 that were truly Masterbuilt and different/better/special vs the rest of the 4800 of them

what are the actual specs for this instrument - hardware, pickups, body countour, wiring, tuners, etc., all the things that people that actually play guitars would care about?

Forget about relicing - Is it great player, tone machine, and true to the heritage of a 50's strat, or strictly Fender marketing bullshit relicing and building a new marketplace

What are they worth today in $$$, and are they worth the apparent premium based on anything of significance, or were these essentially built for the pseudo collectors of vault queens.

Does anyone who plays the guitar, play this guitar, and for what reasons.

Do the command price premiums, and if so, for what reasons, other than stupid relicing.

Are they really any different than any old run of the mill Custom Shop Closet Classic, Time Machine, NOS, and whatever other terminology Fender has employed to market the same instrument for the last 60 years.

Does this help?????????????

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oh yea - what is the deal with the gold metal anodized pick guard - is that some element of a past Fender instrument, or serve some particular purpose other than something different, strictly cosmetics, and /or something that potentially conducts electricity to my hands - not of interest on this fine point

Some early Strats had gold anodized aluminum pickguards. They supposedly turned players finger black.

I always thought that the Cunettos, aside from the funky, inaccurate headstocks, were built w/a little more attention to detail than garden-variety reissues. The body contours & radii, for instance. I think it's a shame that they went to all the trouble w/those & didn't even get the french curve right on the headstock.
As far as the aging goes, if that is not something you are into then there's not really much else to say about it.

I have owned several Fender Custom Shop instruments over the years, and while very nice, I have not historically seen any inherent and incremental value proposition to command extraordinarily huge price premiums for the Custom Shop work in general, let alone these Cunetto's, and especially these sub-production runs of 10 & 20 mentioned above :ha But your willing to trade an LP R9:lmao:

Typically, when someone is wondering about whether to buy an AmStd, a MIM Classic or AVRI, etc people say, "Go and play as many as you can. Then buy the one that speaks to you."



It's fascinating that someone could gather up so much information on a topic and still need to ask if it means anything.

I imagine that similar research could be done leading to a final question regarding any actual functional advantages of pickups w/(&because of)Abigail Ybarra's name written on the underside.

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Originally Posted by NeoFauve

Typically, when someone is wondering about whether to buy an AmStd, a MIM Classic or AVRI, etc people say, "Go and play as many as you can. Then buy the one that speaks to you."



It's fascinating that someone could gather up so much information on a topic and still need to ask if it means anything.

I imagine the similar research could be done leading to a final question regarding any actual functional advantages of pickups w/(&because of)Abigail Ybarra's name written on the underside.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw7d4pVKHyo

:salud:

I have owned original Cunettos. Other than the novelty of the aged look at that point in time (1990's) my sense was then, and remains today, that there was nothing else about them that made them a better musical instrument than the regular custom shop guitars of that era.

The selling point was "the look". And that was it.

The guitar seller of today sells them at a premium because some people will pay to have the early guitars that pioneered the relic trend. The guitars that started that trend for Fender. It is not that they are somehow better instruments....rather they are historical milestones in the evolution of a Fender trend. For that, they cammand a premium price in seller circles. And my guess is that they will continue to do that. They are somewhat rare, as well, so that helps keep the price up. Another example of that might be the bowling ball starts. Not the greatest musical instruments. But rare and they documented a certain look.

The modern day Masterbuilts are superior, IMO, to the Cunettos in terms of being high quality musical instruments. To my senses, they sound and feel better.

Buy a Cunetto if you want a footnote of Fender history. Buy a modern Masterbuilt if you want a high quality musical instrument.

Others may disagree with my view. So be it and to each his own.

... or build one yourself, if you have the time & materials (exit to Clone Zone!!!)

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Originally Posted by buckaroo

I have owned original Cunettos. Other than the novelty of the aged look at that point in time (1990's) my sense was then, and remains today, that there was nothing else about them that made them a better musical instrument than the regular custom shop guitars of that era.

The selling point was "the look". And that was it.

The guitar seller of today sells them at a premium because some people will pay to have the early guitars that pioneered the relic trend. The guitars that started that trend for Fender. It is not that they are somehow better instruments....rather they are historical milestones in the evolution of a Fender trend. For that, they cammand a premium price in seller circles. And my guess is that they will continue to do that. They are somewhat rare, as well, so that helps keep the price up. Another example of that might be the bowling ball starts. Not the greatest musical instruments. But rare and they documented a certain look.

The modern day Masterbuilts are superior, IMO, to the Cunettos in terms of being high quality musical instruments. To my senses, they sound and feel better.

Buy a Cunetto if you want a footnote of Fender history. Buy a modern Masterbuilt if you want a high quality musical instrument.

Others may disagree with my view. So be it and to each his own.

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Thank you for that. Agreed, to each his own.

That was a very complete summary of exactly what I wanted to know. It is a challenge to put anything on these forums, as there are people that simply feel the need to be pseudo sarcastic experts, and perhaps they are experts in their own domain expertise, nevertheless, there are far more of us that constantly seek quality information in the quest for the great guitars out there.

One fellow suggested I go play a few, well, that was insightful, however I live in NC, and there is a Cunneto in California, and one in Texas, and not another one that I know of on this planet at the present time, nor have I ever seen one, or known anyone that ever saw or played one, hence my asking about these Fender instruments in a spirit of good faith.

Hell I am not even a Fender person, and at the risk of opening an extreme can of worms, will tell you that my purple, 12 pound, 1978 Fender Stratocaster, generally speaking, blows away most every Fender produced Strat that I have ever owned or played, including a few Custom Shop 3TSB's, that I have owned in the past. And it looks like a beater/relic, by play and age, and not cosmetic manipulation.

While on a roll here, I guess I will continue this rhetorical folly - Another individulual questioned my sanity in trading an LPR9 for a Cunneto - well the answer to that is; I knew nothing about Cunneto's, and frankly still don't even know what kind of pickups, wood, underlying finish work ignoring the relic aspect, other hardware, weight, electronics, etc, are on a Cunneto, and unfortunately such fundamental information does sort of make a differentce. Secondly, I have quite a few R9's, and if truth be known, I would get rid of the lot; I think that my 1991 LP Classic is the best of any of the LP's that I own; of course it has not a shred of OEM metal that was not replaced with TonePro Hardware & Demarzio electronics, and now it even stays in tune - perhaps those names on the undersides of the hardware made it better, who can say, however, it unequivocally, plays and and sounds better than the eight or so stock OEM Custom Shop LPR9's that I own - who can say. And it is a Plain Top, so how could it possibly be better than an AAAA grade Custom Shop R9 Flame Top?

For all the sarcasm I have endured here, exclusive of your kind and knowledgeable information, it was, unfortunately, a predicable and similar experience, to the last time I dared to ask an honest and legitimate question on one of these forums, albeit, last time was on an LP Forum site.

Same result, one or two very legitimate, helpful, and good faith replies, and the rest - get your lunch eaten by the usual group of malcontents that have nothing better to do than lurk around on these these forum sites.

We all know what we know, and all to well, however; it is those that know, what they do not know, and ask others for guidance, that will win, whatever the end game.

If you ask me, relicing is an idiot's proposition. As one gentleman suggested, go play guitars and don't ask stupid questions - well thank you for that profound insight - I would counter that if one wants relicing, play your instruments, and stop deriding other musicians who seek legitimate knowledge, and who do their own relicing through playing their instruments, as opposed to big mouth talking about how stupid other people may be.

On this entire Cunetto point, it is actually amazing how little is known in the public domain about these instuments, all 4,800 of them, yet they are priced like they are the most unique and desirable instrument around, and simply, at the end of the day, from the pathethic and meager historical perspective, of being a very bad idea, that took hold on the stupid public, increased Fender's profits, and spawned a new market in a fools game.

At the end of the day, Custom shops in general are sketch, one persons opinion, and I don't care who we are discussing, and I will take a Suhr, McInturff, Anderson, Tuttle, Nash (if you can find one that is not hacked/reliced to death), etc., over any of these big name manufacturers, and I for one, am doing exactly that, and will dump my Custom Shop LP's down to the very last one of them, before it is over and done with.

I am taking delivery on my second Michael Tuttle (now will have a Strat and a Tele Custom) Friday, and cannot wait - there are no issues or questions, no surprises, with these instruments, no marketing hype, no sarcasm, no Custom Shop hyperbole - they are a Custom Shop of one individual, which would lead me to conclude that it would be a Masterbuilt instrument, as well.

Nevertheless, it is all good, Michael Tuttle is the real deal, no BS, no need for relicing to sell his Strats and Tele's, as people pretty much salivate for them, and ultimately pay for the pleasure of waiting 6 + months for one, and they are even cheaper than Custom Shop, Masterbuilt Strats, whatever that really means these days.

They are simply and fundamentally works of art, that the big guys only wish they could make, and I am not sure why they do not do so, with all the talent allegedly cooped up in all the Custom Shop's collective bravado and puffery.

I guess that is why John Suhr is now the fastest growing guitar company in the world today - he answered my own question with his own actions, and we are all better off for bold action.

I'm reminded of a FZ 3-album set that was once only available by mail order.

jeez

I wasn't being sarcastic. I am actually fascinated that you can have all that Cunetto info and still wonder if it matters.
From what I've read, he was the relic'ing guy. No idea how his work factors into what people want to pay for guitars associated with his name.
http://www.tfoa.eu/knowabouts/content_id/184

I'm also fascinated that some people don't seem to bat an eyelash at the idea of Fender turning the name of a factory line worker into a kind of in-house boutique marque.
She winds the pickups. As far as I know she had nothing to do with developing them or selecting the wire guage or magnet type.

If you hate relic'ing to the max, maybe look into Vinetto Guitars.
Pricey, but I do like how blends T and S design cues and uses less convetional pickup combinations.
http://www.vinetto.com/

I for one never understood the whole relic thing I don't even know what a Cunetto relic is, would not know one if I saw one

BUT I did play a NoCaster a few years ago that was lightly "reliced' and I must admit I really really liked that one guitar.
go figure

Wyndsong come on man just relax and enjoy the show:slove: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J98umt9OlqQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JppH4PQMfDQ&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuK3cx31o5I

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Originally Posted by Leseattlepaul

Wyndsong come on man just relax and enjoy the show:slove: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J98umt9OlqQ

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Hey I am cool - I just get sick of the BS coming out of a few pricks on every one of these big time aficianado sites. Like a pack of barracuda's everytime. I simply do not understand why people are of this ilk, but hell, it takes all kinds.

I do know however, it will be a while, if ever, before I am desperate enough to resort to asking a question on any of these forum sites in this lifetime.

Just not worth it.

Well, back to Eddy V. - I should have thought of him to start with.

I recognized the voice on your link, before I ever saw who it was, literally with 3 words after hitting start - our buddy Ed Vegas

I get a kick out of him - nevertheless, seeing a Cunnetto, albeit an extreme distressed one, is something cool.

Thanks for the note, support, and good tidings.

Wow- we're a "big time aficianado site"? We made it! Woo hoo!

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Originally Posted by 71818

Wow- we're a "big time aficianado site"? We made it! Woo hoo!

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And we are always in good company http://images.lilypix.com/albums/use...KeithUrban.jpg

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Originally Posted by Leseattlepaul

And we are always in good company http://images.lilypix.com/albums/use...KeithUrban.jpg

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Perhaps the most disturbing guitar magazine I've seen.

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Originally Posted by Kap'n

Perhaps the most disturbing guitar magazine I've seen.

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It could be worse. :wah:
http://images.lilypix.com/displayima...bum=921&pos=60

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Originally Posted by Leseattlepaul

just relax and enjoy the show:slove: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J98umt9OlqQ

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I wonder if there's a Cunettoesque figure in the distressed pants realm? :wah:

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Originally Posted by NeoFauve

It could be worse. :wah:
http://images.lilypix.com/displayima...bum=921&pos=60

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:applaudit

I picked up a copy in an airport once. A tribute to the conspicuous consumption lifestyle. The fact that there were musical instruments in there seemed purely incidental.

"Celebrating the guitar as bauble for the well-off douche!" Ha! Neo, you should be writing something, somewhere for a living.

The remaining blurbs, though, are from the actual horrible magazine. When you start thinking about "blue-chip" guitars (or, worse yet, gathering piles and piles of meaningless information in the preparation of an awesome story you can tell about the guitar you're about to buy), then I, as an actual musician, kinda wish you'd move on to collecting insanely expensive chronographs, buying up rare cameras, dissecting the differences between various hand-rolled cigars, or some other pointless cork-sniffer pastime.

I had to look up who that guy was. :Embarrass

The issue I had, featured some teevee actor, and his up-coming bluze album, and featured lots of ads for pricey liqours and cigars, as well as tooled :wah: leather amps.

Then again, that probably describes four out of five issues.

I just checked out the website, and I get it! It's Playboy... articles about the swinging', high-dollar lifestyle, good wine, TAG watches, famous guys, etc. Only where Hef had naked chicks, they got guitars. Porn made legit, but with different curves, same objectification.

I don't begrudge celebrity chefs or Jeff Bridges their interest in collectible guitars. It's just not interesting reading.
Tom Collichio on the cover of that mag gave me an appreciation for the old issue of GP with the Nuge on the front (which I bought for the Bill Frisell content) that I previously lacked.

Bill Frisell content? Which issue was that?
Could you imagine Bill Frisell & Ted Nugent trading fours? lol!!!

12/02

Whew
I always thought most of the people around here were quite nice as compared with other sites. Oh yes we kid around a bit, but i like to believe in a life is short, enjoy the ride philosophy.

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Originally Posted by 71818

Bill Frisell content? Which issue was that?
Could you imagine Bill Frisell & Ted Nugent trading fours? lol!!!

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That would be interesting.

December 2002.
It's the interview where Ted says: "So nobody sat down and mentioned the words 'classic' or 'modern' when we started this record- we just went in and rubbed our hands together like we were about to undress a cheerleader." :wah:
Among other uniquely Nuge ideas.

I read that issue on the train, and the disclaimer I jotted down on masking tape, in case a desirable lady sat down across from me, is still on there. :laughing:

It's a very cool issue otherwise.
Sean Watkins, Beth Orton, Steve Howe, Bruce Cockburn, Steve Tibbetts, and Frissel

back to the toppic about Cunetto's, the price tag is for the relicing job and the first one I ever saw was the one I could get for free because I bought a custom shop Fender with a twisted neck. I realy liked the guitar and could not understand why people took a perfectly good instrument and then damaged it because of the looks?!? Then after a couple of Years in wich I never bonded with it sold it and bought a gold on gold from the early eighties, a Strat for collectors and this one was played a lott and was a real relic! Never looked back and this guitar is a ceeper for live, sounds good/plays good and even more scarce, with the looks of all the realy old Fenders and nothing artificial.
When I had some time to kill I build my own Stratocaster from new and old parts all over the world and after a Year or so I was sattisfied with the result and this one plays even better for about 800 dollars in total, I can not understand why there is such a high price tag on a very common strat like a relic (Cunetto), the pickups in them are something else and they are realy good, there is not much info on them and I think that this is the secret and Fender should put them in all the Stratocaster because they do sound awesome to me.
In my home build strat I put in some old pickups and these are fine as well, early eighties and great sounding, not like the Cunetto pu's, more like the real deal of great Strat sounds. :XRE

Vince C builds great guitars, no doubt about it. I'd rather have one that's clean.

OTOH, I guess the real concept for a relic is that you don't have to be as careful with it. Who's to say your dent wasn't from the factory? :arhhh:

In my opinion there are some simple facts around Cunetto-era guitars:

- Reliced guitars are cool, or at least this is what a large chunk of the guitar-buying population thinks

- Vince Cunetto is a capable craftsman who had the opportunity to develop his guitar aging technique thanks to an outsourcing contract with Fender which run from '96 until '99, and he did a great job.

- What Cunetto learned and did in those years was passed on to the Fender CS, which has in my opinion perfected the relicing technique even further, as most (but not all) current CS relics look more authentic than Cunetto's.

- Generally speaking, Cunetto-era Fenders are not "Masterbuilt". Whilst there were some CS ees. already appointed as master builders during the Cunetto era, this was mainly an internal seniority matter.
A Cunetto-era J. Cruz Masterbuilt simply does not exist: John Cruz joined the CS in 1993 and was appointed Master Builder in 2003.

- Cunetto relics are more valuable today because relatively few of them were made (around 4,800), they are great guitars and, relic job aside, they have great woods.
It might not be historically correct, but check out those great flamed maple necks, light weight alder bodies, really dark rosewood fingerboards... all things that then were standard CS features, and which instead today you must pay extra for.

I wonder if i can sign such a contract, i could hook up the CS fender back on my car and drag it all the way to work and when i got back home in the evening it´s nice reliced and fender could add 50% to the original selling price and give me 25 :applaudit

What a business concept, i think i´ll call them by now!

Seriously, i prefer to wear in my guitars myself but that´s just me. BTW i think the CS guitars are very overpriced (even though they are nice) as they are and then pay for someone to wear and tear it?

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Originally Posted by holmis63

I wonder if i can sign such a contract, i could hook up the CS fender back on my car and drag it all the way to work and when i got back home in the evening it´s nice reliced and fender could add 50% to the original selling price and give me 25 :applaudit

What a business concept, i think i´ll call them by now!

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Great idea dude, problem is, you should have called them 15 years ago...

But i had no car back then :arhhh: :arhhh: :arhhh: :arhhh: :arhhh:

This thread just tired me out...too long, and I forget what the topic or question is all about. I blame my senior age for this.

Yeah, I got a subscription for that glossy magazine...what a bunch of pretentious ads...I think they even sold bottled ice age water for $60. Geeze! That was truly a waste!