Flats and Tension

[tonydunn]

I have recently changed the strings on my Fender Player Precision from stock Fender roundwounds 45-105 to a set of Rotosound 77 Flats, same gauge. I love the feel of the flats and the sound also suits my taste, but I hadn’t quite realised just how substantial the change in tension would be. I can play it ok, but man those flats sure are tight.

Is there anything straightforward in adjustment terms that can be done to ease this off, or is it a case of getting some lower tension flats, see if they feel and suit me better? I’m not one of those guys who is happy tweaking truss rods and such, so I’d leave that job to my local tech, if there is anything that can be done in that department. Is this the right way to go?

Also, and not sure if it is related, but the Precision with flats now has a noticeable ‘dead spot’ in tone and volume between the 5th and 7th fret on the G string. Is this likely to be the flats/tension again? It was never an issue when I was on rounds.

Suggestions welcomed :)

Cheers

Tony

[MacBayne]

If they are the same gauge, that does not mean the same mass.

Strings make sound by vibrating back and forth. Flatwounds' mass in a particular gauge is greater than round, so require more tension to maintain frequency. More tension means truss rod and saddle adjustment.

Rounds are brighter, as a general rule. This could explain your "flat spot." Probably not, though, as the increased tension bends the neck more.

If you are changing string gauge/wind/composition, heck, sometimes even just changing brands could mean paying a pro for set-up.

In Canada, a simple set-up is around $50, plus cost of strings.

You could keep chasing a solution by buying different strings, or get the set-up.

Get the setup with the strings you like and with the advice of the pro.

I am new to the forum, but there seems to be a common theme; talk to a pro with your instrument in hand. It's the cheapest in the long-run... and you get to the solution much faster.

[tonydunn]

I reckon you're bang on right - I'll take the Precision over to my local pro shop, get an opinion there.

The odd thing is though, the more I play the bass w/flats, the more I'm getting used to it. The difference is most apparent when I pick up another bass with same gauge rounds on it, and that feels so easy and the strings almost flappy! Fairly sure the 'dead spot' is a tension thing, and I've found that with the flats generally, I have to hit them harder to get the tone I want, at the volume I want, at certain places on the neck on different strings (the G is the worst culprit).

Sure I read somewhere that flats have a longer breaking in period, so maybe there is an element of that too?

I'm going to stick with them, but see if I can get an adjustment made to make playability a bit easier, long as it doesn't negatively influence tone/feel.

[MacBayne]

I reckon you're bang on right - I'll take the Precision over to my local pro shop, get an opinion there.

The odd thing is though, the more I play the bass w/flats, the more I'm getting used to it. The difference is most apparent when I pick up another bass with same gauge rounds on it, and that feels so easy and the strings almost flappy! Fairly sure the 'dead spot' is a tension thing, and I've found that with the flats generally, I have to hit them harder to get the tone I want, at the volume I want, at certain places on the neck on different strings (the G is the worst culprit).

Sure I read somewhere that flats have a longer breaking in period, so maybe there is an element of that too?

I'm going to stick with them, but see if I can get an adjustment made to make playability a bit easier, long as it doesn't negatively influence tone/feel.

If you like the flats, you like the flats. I am happy that you like them. They change an instrument.

If you are hitting them harder to get the tone that you want, you are now compensating. Like I said, rounds are brighter, and hitting strings harder increases higher-frequencies. PUPS produce an electric field and hitting a string harder increases it, thus, higher output, and when the sound comes out of the amp, it sounds brighter. Instead of playing harder, setting the PUP height can solve this.

If the strings are higher off of the fret board, they are also further away from the PUP. That produces a weaker signal, and I believe you are compensating for that by playing harder.

I would bet a KitKat that you will be VERY satisfied with a pro set-up. He will set everything where you want it and get the sound that you want.

Now, as far as "break-in period," if the strings are properly wound around the tuner, it takes 5 minutes of fiddle-fucking before you are stage-ready... regardless of wind.

Have fun!

[blackonblack]

It could be your bass doesn’t like those particular flats. And it seems you may desire lower tension. Try LaBella Low Tension flats. Personally I love them on the P Bass.

[MacBayne]

I am new to the forum, but there seems to be a common theme; talk to a pro with your instrument in hand. It's the cheapest in the long-run... and you get to the solution much faster.

It could be your bass doesn’t like those particular flats. And it seems you may desire lower tension. Try LaBella Low Tension flats. Personally I love them on the P Bass.

lol... "your bass doesn’t like those particular flats..." :lol

The Labella flats are a smaller gauge... therefore, exactly what I told OP... Yup! Let's chase an easily solvable issue with more money wasted on different brands!

Yes... your inanimate object doesn't like the other inanimate objects, blackonblack... take a lap...

WTF is with this forum and absolute shit advice with avoiding paying a pro and saving money in the long run?

[blackonblack]

lol... "your bass doesn’t like those particular flats..." :lol

The Labella flats are a smaller gauge... therefore, exactly what I told OP... Yup! Let's chase an easily solvable issue with more money wasted on different brands!

Yes... your inanimate object doesn't like the other inanimate objects, blackonblack... take a lap...

WTF is with this forum and absolute shit advice with avoiding paying a pro and saving money in the long run?

You know MacBayne,

You're new here, so I will give you a pass this time.

I don't know if you play professionally, or if you just sit at home and play with yourself.
But having played professionally since 82, I do have some idea of what's encountered in the real world of instruments/gear.

The simple fact is, the OP put new strings on a bass. Since that point, he has noticed 2 things: Tension is higher (forget gauge for right now) and that there is now a dead spot. I made a simple recommendation for a lower tension flat.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce the cause/effect here. As you noted, its an inanimate object. The only variable changed was the strings, and now there's an issue. So being its inanimate and didn't decide to change on its own, let's address the ONE variable that DID change.

While primarily a guitarist, I do know my way around a bass (evidently as I had 40+ paying bass gigs last year). Couple that with having built 5+ instruments while maintaining another 20+, I do not see where my comment is out of line.

I'll repeat myself, the OP said he noted higher tension. I made a simple recommendation for a lower tension flat. The OP has also noted the ONLY variable changed was the strings AND that NOW there is a dead spot. It doesn't take luthier to grasp the simple concept. In fact if I gave that intel to my luthiers, I am pretty certain a string change would be in the works.

In fact, I don't see where you gave anything helpful. Its like running to the ER with a 8hr wait for a simple 24hr summer sniffle.

Part of this forum is learning from each other. That by default means allowing for miss-steps by others. I'll grant you a pass on this one and I hope you will do the same.

[MacBayne]

You know MacBayne,

You're new here, so I will give you a pass this time.

I don't know if you play professionally, or if you just sit at home and play with yourself.
But having played professionally since 82, I do have some idea of what's encountered in the real world of instruments/gear.

The simple fact is, the OP put new strings on a bass. Since that point, he has noticed 2 things: Tension is higher (forget gauge for right now) and that there is now a dead spot. I made a simple recommendation for a lower tension flat.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce the cause/effect here. As you noted, its an inanimate object. The only variable changed was the strings, and now there's an issue. So being its inanimate and didn't decide to change on its own, let's address the ONE variable that DID change.

While primarily a guitarist, I do know my way around a bass (evidently as I had 40+ paying bass gigs last year). Couple that with having built 5+ instruments while maintaining another 20+, I do not see where my comment is out of line.

I'll repeat myself, the OP said he noted higher tension. I made a simple recommendation for a lower tension flat. The OP has also noted the ONLY variable changed was the strings AND that NOW there is a dead spot. It doesn't take luthier to grasp the simple concept. In fact if I gave that intel to my luthiers, I am pretty certain a string change would be in the works.

In fact, I don't see where you gave anything helpful. Its like running to the ER with a 8hr wait for a simple 24hr summer sniffle.

Part of this forum is learning from each other. That by default means allowing for miss-steps by others. I'll grant you a pass on this one and I hope you will do the same.

I concur with your assertion that my comment was out of line.

My reply was quite aggressive. I am sorry.

Now, for the nest-shaking rebuttal...

The fact remains. For the price of a new set of strings, he could solve the issue immediately instead of chasing his tail with different gauges/tensions and brands.

"In fact if I gave that intel to my luthiers, I am pretty certain a string change would be in the works." And there is the crux. You are giving the info to a luthier.

"In fact, I don't see where you gave anything helpful"- You just said that YOU speak to a luthier about this stuff, and that is exactly what I advised OP, after explaining EXACTLY WHY he should do so. Higher mass strings=higher tension=adjustment, AND if he increases string distance from his PUPS, he has (possibly) weakened the magnetic field and that COULD BE why he is playing harder, IOT make up for lost signal. Lots of variables listed, there... A convo with a pro WILL solve those faster and cheaper than faceless internet posts.

You are completely correct that changing the strings he uses changed the instrument. I am completely correct that he, therefore, needs to make adjustments with the advice of a professional, whether it be truss/saddle adjustments, or gauges, or brands.

I play with myself often.

I am not a pro. But I have made a good deal of money on stage and have been called on for studio work in multiple cities. I am not famous, and I never "made it." I've been on TV, though. My mom said I was the only one in-time. lol. Search my post history if you want more details. I am new here, and it's a short history.

Michael Schumacher is the greatest F1 driver in history, but he certainly never set-up his own car. He talked to his mechanics and engineers. I have driven a go-kart, once. I am on no way comparable to him, but I still have a mechanic. You could be Angus Young, for all I know, but he has a guitar tech, so does Claypool, Wooten, and Flea.

Yes, the point of this forum IS to learn from each other. I joined the forum with the intent to take the wood components of a Squire Bullet Strat and make it into something that Fender doesn't offer, and that I would like to try. Some people disagree with what I want to do. I have an electrical engineering background, but am a complete N00b idiot when it comes to guitar circuitry. I wanted to pick the brains of others... but in the end, when the thing is built, the first place I am going is my luthier for the details, fix my booger soldering, and to fix my shite refret job.

Again, I am sorry for my aggression to your previous post.

Thanks for the pass.

[blackonblack]

I concur with your assertion that my comment was out of line.

My reply was quite aggressive. I am sorry.

Now, for the nest-shaking rebuttal...

The fact remains. For the price of a new set of strings, he could solve the issue immediately instead of chasing his tail with different gauges/tensions and brands.

"In fact if I gave that intel to my luthiers, I am pretty certain a string change would be in the works." And there is the crux. You are giving the info to a luthier.

"In fact, I don't see where you gave anything helpful"- You just said that YOU speak to a luthier about this stuff, and that is exactly what I advised OP, after explaining EXACTLY WHY he should do so. Higher mass strings=higher tension=adjustment, AND if he increases string distance from his PUPS, he has (possibly) weakened the magnetic field and that COULD BE why he is playing harder, IOT make up for lost signal. Lots of variables listed, there... A convo with a pro WILL solve those faster and cheaper than faceless internet posts.

You are completely correct that changing the strings he uses changed the instrument. I am completely correct that he, therefore, needs to make adjustments with the advice of a professional, whether it be truss/saddle adjustments, or gauges, or brands.

I play with myself often.

I am not a pro. But I have made a good deal of money on stage and have been called on for studio work in multiple cities. I am not famous, and I never "made it." I've been on TV, though. My mom said I was the only one in-time. lol. Search my post history if you want more details. I am new here, and it's a short history.

Michael Schumacher is the greatest F1 driver in history, but he certainly never set-up his own car. He talked to his mechanics and engineers. I have driven a go-kart, once. I am on no way comparable to him, but I still have a mechanic. You could be Angus Young, for all I know, but he has a guitar tech, so does Claypool, Wooten, and Flea.

Yes, the point of this forum IS to learn from each other. I joined the forum with the intent to take the wood components of a Squire Bullet Strat and make it into something that Fender doesn't offer, and that I would like to try. Some people disagree with what I want to do. I have an electrical engineering background, but am a complete N00b idiot when it comes to guitar circuitry. I wanted to pick the brains of others... but in the end, when the thing is built, the first place I am going is my luthier for the details, fix my booger soldering, and to fix my shite refret job.

Again, I am sorry for my aggression to your previous post.

Thanks for the pass.

I apologize for the long quote, but:

MacBayne I fully understand. You know sometimes it takes a few head buttings on who may be a foe, but in end is your buddy. Your response was not only I stood and appreciated, but suggested your character. Because you were willing do that, I’ll be by you side! (The concept of fireteams).

the bottom line is the OP has an issue, we are both trying to assist. Let’s work together to get the issue for the OP addressed.

I will admit I’m really sensitive right now due to my professional career. I’m at 110% and I prefer 85%. So I am certain in reading back, I was more harsh than I should have been. Forgive me.

your reply was the only bright light in my day today. Thank you. Hatchets buried and new friendships made.

[MacBayne]

So now that Mark and I are best-buds after a slap fight, what's the result, OP?

This post is not sarcasm... he PM'd me and seems like a good dude.

[jd56hawk]

Never had that problem with these...GHS black tapewounds.