"My Friend Plays Guitar Through The PA": real life horror stories

[CzarSketch]

Thought it would be fun to share horror stories (AND SOLUTIONS) relating to amp/live gigging snafus.

Here's mine:

A friend's band gigs regularly around NYC. They don't get paid much, and have had trouble re-booking venues. If you've ever seen the type of dives most bands book in the city, you'll know they generally max out at a capacity of 100 people and their sound systems are pretty run-of-the-mill.

I was sympathetic until I went to one of their shows and realized that my friend (who plays keys) was toting around a 65lb Roland keyboard amp (that inevitably was being mic'd because it just couldn't keep up) while the guitarist was PLAYING THROUGH THE PA. He had a Boss GT-10 pedalboard in between his poor guitar and the underpowered PA system at the venue. I sat down and asked what he practiced with at home. His answer: "Well, it's always a toss-up between the Marshall I keep at the studio and the Fender Twin Reverb I have outside in my truck."

I was dumbstruck. He owns, maintains, and CARRIES WITH HIM a working TRRI and chooses to play through the PA because "I don't think anyone will notice." I suggested he bring in his TRRI from the truck, and he said he'd think about it, but I have yet to see it happen at a gig. It's too bad, too, since he's a guitarist with some serious chops and great tone at practice.

How would you approach him?
What horror stories do you have to share? Doesn't have to be gig-related.

[Mesotech]

To be realistic, you've probably done as much as you can already (and still keep a friend). He's right, the majority of people won't notice he's not playing through a proper amp, only the musicians will notice or care. If he thinks his current rig will get the job done, then that's what he's going to use.

If you're set on setting him straight, probably the best way to approach the issue is to volunteer to record a couple of shows with a handheld digital recorder, and then do the same at some rehersals. If he can't hear a difference in his tone from those recordings, he'll never be convinced. If he likes the practice recordings and not the live gigs, he'll probably figure out on his own it's because of the amp (though I suspect he would still load the front end of the amp with his Boss unit and there would be little difference to his tone). If he likes the tone of the live gigs better, that will solidify his position of not using an amp (in which case, you might be able to buy his unused amps at a good price and put them to proper use).

[Wilko]

of course, that's assuming that his tone somehow suffers by how he's playing.
There's good chance that the mix is a whole lot better and evenly spread throughout the room and his his frequency range is better.

Handheld recordings would bear this out.

BTW, the few times I saw Johnny A. play, he used a marshall head right into the board.

[Don]

Before my first jam with the guy who used to sing in the band I'm in, he said "you don't need to bring a guitar amp. I have a PA!"

[dirtdog]

I was invited to play a gig here about a month ago. Great stage setup and was told that all I would have to bring was my bass. Perfect! I love travelling light. I get there - no bass amp on stage. Band leader says, no problem, we're putting you through the board.

Now, I don't even like having to do this at PRACTICE let alone a gig - I need the bowel moving sound waves from the amp to play like I like to. Not only that, there was no monitor mix - we had the sam mix that the FOH did for some reason and the sound guy wouldn't punch up the bass in the mix.

I spent the whole gig trying to hear myself. At the end of the gig, the band leader says, well, pretty good, but you missed a few cues... HAH! I thought I missed the entire gig! Band leader agreed to have an amp for me at the next gig, and he did (gig was last night and went MUCH better).

[Offshore Angler]

Not for nothing, but this may be a classic case of listening with your eyes. I find at low, small club volumes a GT10 can sound mighty nice, better than an amp on 1/2.

[CzarSketch]

All good answers--thanks guys

My biggest concern is that it seems the band doesn't get asked back because the sound suffered so much. I don't think it's all because of the guitar going into the board, but rather because there's also a vocalist, 2 backup vocalists, and the keys. Usually the vocals end up suffering the most. Even at the board through headphones it's hard to hear which words are being said.

I also forgot to mention that I used to practice with these guys--we'd hang out in one of those "music buildings" you can rent by the hour and jam, and it always sounded great with just the vocals being mic'd. Maybe it's actually the vocalist who needs to adjust her style, but the lack of amp is really a pet peeve of mine, especially when you're going through the trouble of bringing one to every gig.

[Rickenjangle]

I used to use a J-station right into the PA at a church where I used to play, and even with the Aviom monitoring system I thought that the sound might be good out front but the experience sucked. I don't know if it was the earbuds being a pain or not "feeling" the amp but nobody out front complained at all.

It IS a way to control the guitar player but then again it's also a way for the guitar player to not know how good or bad he/she sounds! I prefer to have control.

In fact, unless I am personally setting up the gain at the board for myself (which I can do if I've got my wireless on) I refuse to ever run direct in these kinds of situations.

The GT10 might be a good tool to run direct, but in my experience many people do NOT know how to set up their tones to sound natural, and to get their volumes set correctly so that they don't "leap out" at you at inappropriate times...

Lack of knowledge is way worse than poor equipment, IMHO.

[yankeerob]

Depends on the material and setting really... NYC is not the place that you'll ever turn a lot of heads, get many gigs or for that matter - re-bookings... glad I live in one of the most fertile regions for live music in the UK... I live right smack in between Leeds and Manchester... and your mate wouldn't stand a chance playing a pedal into a PA in our neck o' the woods... even the punters would notice

[CzarSketch]

Ha,

Yankeerob, I think that's the first time I've read something you've written with a british accent. Well done, sir.

[Gtrplyr]

I can understand your friends feelings that no one really hears the difference and that it is much less hassle to just run through the board but for me I like to create my sound which when all goes well inspires my playing.

Of course the mix is always going to sound different to people in the crowd depending on various scenarios however I feel that if I can make myself happy hauling my amp around is worthwhile.

So I guess what I'm saying is tell your friend to play though his amp for his own satisfaction. To strive to sound the best one can just because that's what is hopefully what we all do this.

[yankeerob]

Be that as it may... I can also understand how someone can get beaten down by playing 'in the city'... I grew up 10 mi west of Manhattan... it is still so inherently impersonal that even intimate venues lack any real warmth... it's not changed in this way for as long as can remember and I have been back a good few times now

[hudpucker]

I'm sure a lot of this depends upon the quality of the PA in question.

I had a pal who plugged into his cheapo PA and....gee, it sure did sound like he was playing through the sh*ttiest little SS practice amp ever made.

I didn't have the heart to tell him.

[teleman55]

Smaller venues are best done with only vocals and keys and acoustic instruments through the PA. And Sax, trumpet, etc. into a mic through the PA. No Sub, No drum mics, no kick drum only mic. Guitar and bass amps fill the the room by themselves. Trust me...it works.

[Rickenjangle]

Teleman, I've been doing that very same thing for years. Putting only vocals and acoustic guitar through the PA - with small mains, small wedges, a small PA head, and fewer headaches and backaches. Subs? Schlubs.

[yankeerob]

Depends on the player... I've just built a 50W 5E3/5E5 with a tube buffered loop for a guy who is so good I had to take two leaps with a single bound.... I had doubts about the loop.... but he persisted...

He can make it sing in any room - with a mid-70's 335 he's owned from new....

And I have all the guys here to thank...

[refin]

Well,I'm certainly an amp guy...but Saturday night I saw a Beatles tribute band (The Return) who had fake Vox Super Beatles onstage,and I found out they were playing direct-inject with Pods!
I have to admit---someone took the time to get a near perfect sound for those songs,almost like the record.

[Rickenjangle]

Refin, I'll bet they also had a sound man that really knew his stuff, too, right? That's a part of the 'recipe' for getting good direct sounds that sit nice in the mix, IMHO. Of course, many of us, myself included, have no sound man. In my case, there is no business model for having one - he'd eat up the majority of our paltry fees!

[Wilko]

we're like that, and no matter much I have to fight guys to do it, our model is to put the PA mains behind us.

Keeps our volume in check, we hear what the crowd hears, and the mix is always perfect. We all use amps, but if we were to go direct, the sound would be similar. Very easy to dial in and have real live/real-time monitoring.

My seemingly off the wall point is that alternate PA arrangements can be surprising. Specially when there are 'lectric guitars involved.

[buckaroo]

Get that Twin on the stage and plug the guitar and vocal mic into it! Tell the Roland "keys boy" to get a Fender Rhodes or a Hammond B3 with a Leslie. Then watch the tip jar fill up....

[refin]

Refin, I'll bet they also had a sound man that really knew his stuff, too, right? That's a part of the 'recipe' for getting good direct sounds that sit nice in the mix, IMHO. Of course, many of us, myself included, have no sound man. In my case, there is no business model for having one - he'd eat up the majority of our paltry fees!

The mix was pretty darn good,considering the room.