Hi,
I have a question:
does it influence anything when the speaker wattage is much bigger than amp wattage ? I mean, when I am interested to try out a 75W Eminence Copperhead in my small 15W Laney VC15, would the big power difference make that speaker possibly sound more dull or sterile, due to the fact that the 15w amp could not drive it hard?
Thanks in advance,
telbert
It's not wattage, it's something else. It's some other factor. db rating or something, I can't remember what it is.
Someone help us out here.
I did hook up some big speaker cabs to a small amp and couldn't get much out of them.
The speaker's "efficiency" or "sensitivity" is the spec that you're thinking of.
Many speakers are only rated at about 96 dB or so. Good speakers will be close to 100dB
That means that the 100db speaker will be 4dB louder given the same power as t he one that could only make 96dB, That's a noticable difference. That 96dB speaker will need an amp to work a lot harder to give you that same 100dB.
That can be good or bad, depending on what you want out of your sound.
Actually, even more complicated than that. Voice coil size and material has the biggest impact on wattage capability, yet magnet size and material has more to do with sensitivity.
However, I can tell you - regardless of the science - I have demoed those Copperheads extensively in small amps and they are great. However, it is a very 'Fendery' sounding speaker as opposed to Brit voiced. If you also want to try an Emi Ragin Cajin I have one I'll sell you dirt cheap. Those are Emi's two best 10" speakers IMO.
do I look like I know what I'm doing?
Thanks for answers
no-no, I did not think of sensitivity/loudness, but straight the wattage what the speaker can take, and influence of the latter to the sound response. I started to think that if the speaker is rated to take 75W and going to be used in amp with RMS of only 15W , then there might in theory come situation, while the speaker will not be responding to the amps signal as clearly, transparently, sincerely, than for example an otherwise identical but power rated only 30W speaker, since the 75w speaker might like to get more powerful signal for giving a nice ´open´ sound, than an 15W amp could put onto it. I cannot express myself better :-) . Is that an issue or not? Is there a threat to loose something in tone quality when 5 times (Emi 75W , Laney 15W ) bigger W acceptable speaker is used ?
And about the claims on Copperhead´s cone cry - is this problem common with Copperhead?
Copperhead vs Legend vs Ragin Cajun :
which of them has the best low end ( if there is much difference) ?
Which one of them is having the clearest voice ( when played on cleaner settings) and clear bell-like top end?
Would any of them be obvious improvement comparing to the Jensen C10Q (which sometimes sounds tight and mids-heavy with HB guitar in that Laney VC15)?
tt
Probably should stick w the Copperhead w/ bucker guitar. It has the tightest bottom. I dont like the Legend (ceramic). The Cajun is a chunky fat sounding speaker that works really well with SC guitars. Trust me NO, nada, zero problem runniong the Copperhead in a 15 watt amp. It will sing.
rated power is a combination of speaker coil wire diameter and the temp rating of the voice coil 'former' (wrong term, I know) the voice coil can be cardboard, plastic, or some high tech material that is heat resistant and thin.
Bigger wire = more power handling (to a point)
Ultimately, what sounds good to you is totally subjective. To answer the other question
a) no a speaker capable of handing more than your amp cand produce will not hurt anything. Some think speakers sound better when they start to break up, some don't
b) as a rule of thumb, I would suggest speakers 150 to 200% of your amps output. If it is rated 15w, I would not put a speaker n there rated less than 30. - Just my opinion
do I look like I know what I'm doing?
I play mostly SC, actually ( teles) , the Epi Dot is my only HB instrument. The VC15 sounds superb with teles, but with EPi Dot it gets that rubbery midsheavy ´honk´ to it, which i do not like. I like the speakers which sound clear on cleaner settings ( no muddy or dark or mids heavy) but in this case would like to have efficient bottom end as well...
PLay mostly bluesy stuff, sometimes some hard rock, sometimes something similar to country ( cleaner settings) ...
Copperhead it is then ?
Well, the Cajun is an enigmatic (in a good way) speaker. Clear on top with big chunky bottom. I like it better than CH but the bottom is not as tight.
What I was answering is fedoras post that mentions the sensitivity, but doesn't know the name.
And yes, the sensitivity is the factor that will make a speaker react differently. Power handling has absolutely nothing to do with it.
a 20 watt speaker rated at 100dB will react the same as a 75 watt speaker rated at 100dB when driven by the same 20 watt amp.
a 96 dB speaker (whether 20 watt or 75) will sound dull and lifeless.
I disagree with this statement to the extent that you are saying those speakers will sound the same. Also disagree that a 96db speaker will necessarily sound 'dull and lifeless.'Originally Posted by Wilko
I have experimented for years with changing different components within speakers. Everything has an impact and the voice coil size and material certainly affects the sound. The exact same speaker with different size voice coils will in fact sound different. Generally, the bigger the VC the warmer the speaker sounds.
Not trying to be argumentative, just saying I've tried all kinds of speakers in all kinds of amps, inclsuing many experimental ones, and found that power ratings (and the VC behind them) usually do impact the sound significantly.
And there are certain size VC made of certain materials that will not 'work' with low power amps. In fact I just sold a special custom designed 100 watt alnico EV clone speaker that sounded heavenly when driven hard by 25+ watts but sounded flat when it only had 10-15 or so watts on it.
In fact the VC so impact sound that Ted Weber has gone to great lengths to tweak the VC of certain speakers (his Marhsall series) so that they do not require extra energy to work properly.
And I have owned many vintage Jensen speakers with 96db ratings that sounded fantastic.
+1
I cannot afford a speaker failure -- thus, I routinely configure my stage driver array as rudutch describes (150-200% of rated amp power).
As for a small amp driving a large-wattage speaker load, I am currently experimenting with a SF Princeton amp (12 watts RMS) wired to a cabinet containing a pair of 16Ω JBL K120s (12-inch, 101 dB SPL, 75 watts RMS continuous power handling capability). As such, my Princeton sounds like a full-bodied 35 or 40 watt amp.
My main rig of late is a 22-watt DRRI driving a 15-inch JBL D130F. I might conceivably fry the amp someday but that speaker, relatively speaking, is bulletproof.
And Gris is telling you straight on the Eminence Ragin' Cajuns -- they are the best full-range 10s currently on the market IMO. The only better speakers of that size are the original '66 CTS alnicos (pricey......when you can find them). My next combo amp conversion project will probably be built around a pair of the Emi RCs. Theyre loud, ballsy, durable, and relatively economical.
Best of luck, HTH
"When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."
Gris your right on with your comments as applied to someone who knows what he's doing.
My comments are in apples to apples land--purely academic.
Same amp settings (and the ideal--same speaker specs except efficiency) the 96dB speaker will sound quiet and non-responsive compared to the same speaker with 100dB.
You and I both know that by cranking up that amp with that 96dB speaker we will be working the amp harder and making the tubes start to grind and compress for a cool sound--hardly lifeless.
BUT, also that can cause a change in dynamic range as well, not to mention the physical distorion that more power may cause, but the poster didn't offer more power, just wondering of his little amp couldn't push a higher power rated speaker to sound good.
Hard to add to what has already been said, and I skimmed some.
One of the potential issues the OP brought up is about sensitivity of a higher wattage speaker or cab not quite catching the delicate overtones of the lower wattage amp.
It depends on a large range of factors.
Erock Germany can attest, as well as I, and Phantom that you CAN get away with a lot of sensitivity with the right combination.
The Princeton, or Deluxe Reverb, or even Tweed Deluxe can belt out some amazing harmonics even when hooked up to a large cab.
I tend to think it is the amp singing, and just relying on the speakers to deliver that internal tone.
I can't help with Gris' comment-I haven't tried them.
But I trust his opinion-if he says it is so, then it most likely is.
So, what do you suggest , is an Emi worth of trying in my VC to improve the tone and also a bit the sensitivity(loudness wise) ?
And if so, then which one could possibly sound best of the CH, RC or Legend ?
"I am looking for a different speaker to try out in my small Laney VC15. It´s got Jensen C10Q (8ohm), and generally I like the speaker pretty much as it has very nice clear/bright tone and sounds also good overdriven. But it has that weird mids-heavy orientation which is not possible to dial out with eq. Plus, it´s sometimes feeling somewhat ´tight´sounding. Another thing - It sounds very-very good with teles (SC) , but gets somewhat "rubbery" dark and mids tight with Epi Dot (HB) , specially while the spring reverb is set on (which i use much). I would like to get a 10" Eminence speaker with good efficiency, nice clear and sparkle top , but also nice round bottom and the touch of vintage sound , having a bit less mids orientation... (Blues, Bluesrock, rock, sometimes some country riffs...)
Weber - unfortunately unavailable in Estonia , too much hassle to get one.
Another Jensen RI - would like to try something else"
both Copperhead and Ragin' Cajun will be noticable louder than your Jensen. the Copperhead has about the same tight low-end with the Jensen, so if you're looking for a fuller sound, go for the Ragin' Cajun.
don't worry about the wattage, many people use the 100W rated Emi Red,White&Blue with 15W amps and they're pretty happy with it.
I agree with P. Leone. Also, if you play clean with reverb a lot the CH will sound better. If you play dirty with pedals the Cajun will shine. The Cajun has a nice clean sound too just doesn't do the Fender reverb thang as well as the CH. Either will work great though.
Thanks for comments, think will try the CH then ...
Ola and hello,
The problem I have seen the most with high watt speakers with low watt amps is that the sound and tone won't be the same as you are expecting. I ahve seen where the player keeps turning it up trying to get the sound they want and the speaker just can't operate the way it wants to. It ends up attempting to comensate for the lack of power and the sound/tone seem to worsen.
Speakers are built to do only what they are designed to do....What I mean by that is that a 75w speaker is designed to have a certain amount of power through it for it to operate at it's optimum potential both in volume and tone. If it is underpowered it will operate the way same way as if it had the right amount of power to drive it and will end up distorting (not in a good way) when you try and push it with less power.
FYI...........
Happy Trails
Can you elaborate?
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
No. Because it's not accurate.
What he's on about is lower efficiency and is rarely related to power handling.
With lower efficiency, the lower powered amp will, indeed, distort at a lower threshold as explained in previous posts. That can happen with a 15 watt speaker or a 100 watt speaker with lower efficiency thana similar speaker with high efficiency.
do I look like I know what I'm doing?
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote