Amp Gain vs. Pedals

[NDRU]

Hmm, I should have said that I turn it to about 4, not really cranking it. Hey, it works for me. Different folks, different strokes.

I only use one amp, too, a DRRI on about 5, so not too different from your setup. I wasn't saying you can't only use one amp.

What I mean is, if you're going to really crank a really small amp to push the power tubes for all of your gain, I think your clean options are more limited because gain and volume will be interdependent. That's where a larger second amp could be handy for loud clean tones.

But of course you can get by with a single medium sized amp, even if it's not crystal clear, and especially if you're playing roots rock or blues. And whatever works, works, right?

[Kap'n]

What I mean is, if you're going to really crank a really small amp to push the power tubes for all of your gain, I think your clean options are more limited because gain and volume will be interdependent.

Not necessarily. This is one of the things you can do with a 5E3. The amp 'brickwalls' at the point of distortion. Depending on how hard you hit it, it can actually get quieter when you really push it.

[NDRU]

Not necessarily. This is one of the things you can do with a 5E3. The amp 'brickwalls' at the point of distortion. Depending on how hard you hit it, it can actually get quieter when you really push it.

you mean, there's a point as you turn up the volume that the volume stops increasing but the gain keeps going?

[Kap'n]

Yep.

The down side is that the volume needs to be spot on. You can tweak that a bit, but I always find myself needing 1 or 2 db more.

[ziess]

As did I with the 12a125 that was in it until recently. Replaced it with a 12f150 and it's now just right with the band.

[Gris]

I've heard the 12F125 is the 'shizzle' (LOL) in that amp...

[Kap'n]

I like the 12A125 I've got in there a lot, but based on my intense dislike of the 10F125 (and love of the 10A125), I'm a little hesitant to try the 12F125.

[ziess]

Never heard an xxF125 but the 12F150 is great. What's the 12F125 based on? C12Q?

[Gris]

Never heard an xxF125 but the 12F150 is great. What's the 12F125 based on? C12Q?

Roughly, it's got a slightly bigger magnet than the C12Q and I'm not sure (?) if the Q was ribbed all the way up and down. All I know a super-picky friend of mine put one in a small Fender BF amp and raves about it. And another also picky friend replaced the 12A125 in his 5E3 with one and considers it a big improvement. Of course both of these guys were looking for more punch, dynamics and headroom (vs. bluesy compression).

[Don]

I like the 12A125 that you put in my 5E3 clone a lot. That "bluesy compression" was exactly what I was after.

The cascading gain that's built into NRDU's and my Boogies is a completely different thing.
I have an Eminence Tonker in my Boogie. It's louder, brighter and more articulate than the Celestion C-90 that the amp came with. The articulation is what I like best about it (it's loud as hell though!). The C-90 was mud.

[shakeyjake]

I picked up a Durham Crazy Horse pedal this week

My 59 Deluxe Tweed with an old P12R pretty much nails the tone I lust for but it does get a little loud in my home studio.

My 72 Princeton has a 10" square magnet fitted. This can get really
nice when cranked too but don't have the thick mid's like the 59.

Stick the Princeton through my Musicmaster cab/12" Jenson and your in Neil Young land..

I bought this pedal hoping I could attain the same crunch at respectable home volume's. WRONG. this pedal is LOUD !!!

Through the Princeton it is simply outragous.. Awesome !!
LP with a Fire Bird in the bridge

Tried it through the 59 Tweed and was gutted.. sounded crap.. Thrash metal city. Early day's I'll have another play this w/end.



Paul
UK

[Gris]

I like the 12A125 I've got in there a lot, but based on my intense dislike of the 10F125 (and love of the 10A125), I'm a little hesitant to try the 12F125.

Kap.n have you tried the 10A150T...? Mo of everything the 10A125 has - mo lows, mo highs, mo sensistive/articulate, mo tight. It is a little less middy and compressed, but I like it even better (I do like the 10A125 as well). The 10A150 seemed dull in comparison. The 10A150P was unreal, but a bit colored/chimey (in a very good way).

[Kap'n]

Kap.n have you tried the 10A150T...?

I have not. I do have a really early P10N (10A150) which used to be my absolute favorite, but in the last couple of years seems too rounded on the high end for my tastes. I hope it's not my ears going.

[Gris]

I have not. I do have a really early P10N (10A150) which used to be my absolute favorite, but in the last couple of years seems too rounded on the high end for my tastes. I hope it's not my ears going.

Nope, you're right - the 10A150 sounds dull compared to the 10A125 and really dull compared to the 10A150T.

[NDRU]

I'm wondering if anyone has any famous examples of the different types of gain?

Pedals vs Preamp gain vs Power amp gain on popular songs?

For example, I assume Santana is usually using preamp gain on a Boogie, as is Metallica. Any others, or specific songs, even? I don't know who uses what pedals.

[thegeezer]

I only like amps that I can carry easily and sound good the BJr is that amp, with an od of your taste.
Jerry

[Rickenjangle]

Lately, I've been favoring using a pair of Vox Pathfinders for smaller gigs. I had a great time last Saturday night playing through a Marshall Jackhammer (used sparingly) and a Reverend DriveTrain II (used on a lower-gain setting) and an Ibanez Chorus to split the signal. With a Strat I got some delicious tones.

I know that this might seem like heresy, but I am liking the SS amps for small gigs where I can't open up the AC15. And, as always, I use pedals for gain 'cause they're easily tweakable.

[NDRU]

Stevie Ray Vaughn used a tube screamer, I guess.

What about Zeppelin? the sex pistols? The Clash? Nirvana? Did they use pedals or their amps?

[curtisstetka]

Funny, when I was a kid I once read an interview with Pete Townshend where he said something about playing the amp rather than the guitar. It was incomprehensible to me and I spent lots of time chasing after the "best" guitar.

It's only now when I have some more miles (and beers) under my belt that I truly appreciate the wisdom of Pete and I'm starting to get together a fair collection of amps. It really is the most important part of the chain and it's something I'd made secondary, if not completely overlooked, for many years.

[Rickenjangle]

I know that Kurt Cobain used a chorus pedal, and the Boogie Studio Preamp into a Crown power amp. As for Zeppelin, who knows what they used in the studio...to my ears it sounds like amp overdrive for the most part - at first of course it was the Tele into the Supro amp and then later the LP into the Marshall. I heard that he used a Sola Sound Tone Bender for awhile too. The Clash? I don't think they were all about good tone - just what worked for the song.

It would be great to have an amp that could do all I need it to do - and I'm sure if I had the ability to switch multiple amps in and out and have them set up by roadies and mic'ed by sound techs then I would opt for lots of great amp sounds...but since I'm limited to one - MAYBE two - amp(s) onstage, I have to use pedals. FWIW I used to go to gigs with the original Marshall Guv'nor, and an SD-9 and my AC15 - and find that for the most part the Guv'nor stayed on and the SD-9 stayed off and I was rolling my volume up and down and had a very responsive rig that could go from fairly clean to fairly gnarly with just a twist of the knob or switch of the pickups. But that was for a specific type gig where I just showed up and played rhythm and occasional leads behind the lead singer/main guitarist.

[NDRU]

The Clash? I don't think they were all about good tone - just what worked for the song.

I was more just curious to know which technique produced which type of tone, and I know the Clash's music very well.

Of course I can just experiment on my own, but it's hard to be objective while I play. I thought I could hear the difference clearer if someone said "the Clash used the gain on their Marshall amps"

(thanks for the other info, though!)

Other examples I'm curious of:
Eddie Van Halen
Jimi--I know he used a fuzz pedal, maybe there wasn't preamp gain back then?
ZZ Top

[Mesotech]

A lot of the Rev's tone came from using small amps, lots of small amps, stacked up pyramid style with a mic in the middle. Early on, he used single small amps like the 5e3 and the Marshall 18 watters.

EVH reportedly used a 50 watt Marshall cranked full up.

Jimi did use fuzz, but it's reported that a lot of his studio work was done with a Champ with the speaker removed and laying on a pillow and a mic suspended above it. Clapton supposedly did the same thing, but I don't remember which did it first, but one copied the technique from the other.

So, basically, in the 3 examples you asked about, all were fully cranked amps (most of them small) and what you're hearing is lots of power amp drive.

[Rickenjangle]

EVH's 50 watt Marshall also was plugged into a variac and therefore overdrive was a bit easier to achieve - so the story goes.

[NDRU]

I just removed the treble bleed circuit from my guitar, which I believe was affecting my gain tone. This subject may have to be completely re-evaluated!