Help! Strat installation question!

[refriedwhiskey]

So I ended up taking my Squier "Deluxe" Strat and Fender Vintage Noiseless pickup set to the local Fender dealer, along with a copy of the updated wiring diagram Fender E-mailed me.

He just called me to tell me about a problem he thinks he's traced to the 5-way switch that came with the Squier.

He said he’s checked and double-checked the wiring, even going to far as to desolder the whole harness and re-solder it, but he’s getting no output when the bridge and neck pickups are selected alone (I guess that would be positions 1 and 5). He says he believes the bridge and neck pickups are working when they’re selected in combination with the middle pickup, because he’s getting three distinct tones when he checks out positions 2, 3, and 4.

So now he’s ordering a new 5-way switch for the guitar on the assumption that the old one is “burned out.” But I’m wondering if there’s any other problem that could be causing this, since the switch was working fine when I brought the guitar in, and I can't imagine the heat of soldering damaging a simple blade switch. Any chance this is a common problem with a known solution?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[Wilko]

Well, the squier switches are pretty cheapo, and being box designs you can't just look at the terminals and see what's what.

He's a tech and has to order a 5 way switch? WTF?

that's a parts bin item.

[cdw2000]

It sounds more like a wiring error to me, although the tech could have mucked up the switch when desoldering/soldering wires.

I don't own a Squier, but I believe they have an import-style switch that looks something like this:

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c...7_1944_5773340

Whereas a MIM or MIA Standard Strat Switch looks like this:

http://www.guitarpartsresource.com/elel5.jpg

The Vintage Noiseless wiring diagram is for the MIM/MIA type switch, hence the tech may be having trouble interpreting the diagram to work with the pinout of the Squier switch.

In any case if he replaces the switch with the Fender MIM/MIA style, he should be able to interpret the wiring diagram correctly at that point.

Edit: Looks like Wilko got his post in just before me- saying pretty much the same thing a bit more succinctly ...

[Offshore Angler]

fezz is correct. I'd be a little scared if the guy can't diagnose a switch problem. Even without a meter, I could do it with test leads.

[refriedwhiskey]

Thanks for the replies, guys!

He mentioned using a multimeter to confirm output from the pickups...but earlier in the week he said the guitar wasn't yet ready because he was waiting for a multimeter so he could check if there was a problem with a resistor.

So I guess this is a guitar tech who didn't have a 5-way switch or a multimeter in stock. <shrug>

I've heard good things about the shop, and they are an authorized Squier and Fender dealer with many very lovely Strats in stock. It ain't Manny's in NYC, or anything, but I figured they'd be more qualified than me to do this pickup install. I haven't soldered anything since I built a Heathkit alarm clock in high school. Haven't had my own soldering/desoldering stuff since I left home for college.

I hope I won't regret not doing it myself, though.

[cdw2000]

If you put together a Heathkit - you may have more soldering experience than this tech!

If he didn't even have a multimeter in the shop, then I would say he has no experience wiring guitars.

They are an authorized Fender dealer, but are they an authorized Fender repair center?

My guess is that this tech typically only does setups.

If you could get the guitar to me in southern New Hampshire, I'd fix it up for you for free ... I've done the Vintage Noiseless in my own guitar.

[Gravity Jim]

There is no such thing as an electric guitar tech who doesn't have a multi-meter. Not owning one strips you of the title.

[curt1lp]

I own a multimeter and a spare switch and I'm not a guitar tech.

[JJ Gross]

Geeze, Harbor Freight has a very usable DMM for something stupid like $3. It also tests transistors and even comes with batteries in it fer cryin out loud.

$3!

I'd look for another 'tech'.
Most auto mechanics could test your switch. It's a stinkin switch!

I repeat - Geeze!

Cheers,
- JJ

[stratelecaster]

It's been my experience(or lack of) that you could tell if the switch/pup is working simply by moving the switch to it's designated position and touching any pole of the pup with a screwdriver while the guitar is amped. For example, in a plain ol' Strat wire up, set the switch in the bridge position and touch any of the poles on the bridge pup and you should hear a very distinct POP from your amp. Then move the switch to the bridge and mid position and do the same to both pups, etc.etc.
During this type of test, there should be no distinct POP from any pup that's not engaged by the switch. Hope this helps and not hurts...I've done it when swapping out pups and never had any problems. Poor mans trouble shooting! Good luck

[refriedwhiskey]

Sounds like a good technique. Thanks!

To be honest, I think some of what I'm being told by this guy amounts to stalling tactics. I originally took the guitar in on a Monday, and he said it should be ready "by the weekend," which I took to mean Friday, Saturday at the latest.

So I called him on Saturday, and he told me the thing about waiting for a multimeter so he could test the resistor, but said the guitar would be ready "by Wednesday at the latest."

Then I get a message on my voice mail Wednesday morning, asking me to call him about my guitar. I figure there's another problem, because if it was ready to be picked up, he'd have just said so.

So I call him back, and he tells me about the problem from the original post: neck and bridge pickups are fine in combination with the middle pickup, but no output when they're selected by themselves...so he's ordered a new switch.

I thought on Saturday -- and again on Wednesday -- that maybe he's just...well...making up these problems because he doesn't want to admit that he just hasn't gotten to my guitar yet, or hasn't finished it. So these stories buy him a couple more days to work on it.

Then again, when I talked to him on Wednesday and he said he was waiting for a new switch, he offered to let me come and get the guitar, so I'd at least have a partially-functional guitar for the day or two it took for the new switch to come in. I don't know if he'd make that offer if he was just making up the switch thing as a stall.

But I think I'd rather believe he made these problems up just to buy time than believe he really had these problems. I'd rather think he's very slow and prone to making excuses than believe he's not very good at what he does. 'Cause that's my guitar he's working on!

As it is now, if the guitar doesn't sound absolutely fantastic when I get it back, I'm going to wonder if he wired it wrong. I'll probably end up taking off the pickguard myself, just to make sure the work he did matches Fender's diagram.

[Wilko]

I'd tell him I was on my way to pick it up.

I don't care if he's god, that's just just bullshit.

I wouldn't pay him a dime and I'd make a big stink.

[Gravity Jim]

Man, if I had a nickel for every goofball 'round these parts who set up shop as a "guitar tech" and actually knew less than I do, I'd buy myself lunch at Arby's with the windfall. (I mean, come on, that's alot of nickels.)

Don't even get me started about the last idiot guy I trusted before some members of this board convinced me I really could do it myself. Now I set up my own guitars better than any tech ever did.

[refriedwhiskey]

Yeah, Wilko, I've thought about that, but my concern now is that he's had the guitar for 10 days, and he's going to want to be paid for whatever work he can show he has done. So I could end up having to pay him just for the right to take home a non-working guitar, and then I'd have to either find someone else to fix it, or go and buy soldering tools and try to fix it myself.

The dumbest thing I did in all of this (besides taking a couple of people's word that this guy was good) is not getting anything in writing. After that first conversation with him about the guitar not being ready because a resistor might be bad, I realized I should've gotten something in writing that said exactly what I brought to him (guitar, gig bag, pickups, strings), exactly what I wanted him to do, exactly what it would cost, and -- most importantly, it seems -- exactly how long it would take.

If I had something like that, I'd have no problem going in there and saying "Look, you said you could do this, and you've missed two different dates for completion -- just give me everything I brought in, and we'll call it even."

I also think that if this guy is basically just jerking me around, taking his sweet time with the job and making up reasons why it's taking longer than he said it would, having something in writing would've made him a lot less likely to do that.

That's the lesson I've learned from this, and the lesson anybody reading this thread can take from it: If you take your axe to someone else to work on, get everything in writing.

[Wilko]

If it's not done, he hasn't done anything he can charge you for.

Again. Fuck this guy. there is no excuse. Specially once you show him that switch is fine (I'll bet it is). If not, send me your pickguard assembly and I'LL FIX IT FOR FREE.

What is he busy? does he have a lot of other guitars to fix?
Tell him you're on your way with a printout of this thread.

It'll be done by the time you get there.

[refriedwhiskey]

Heh. I just called him and expressed my...um...incredulity that he works in a shop that sells Fender parts and didn't have a standard 5-way Strat switch in stock. He said "normally we do, but we didn't this time. It's just bad timing."

He's stalling. I'm sure of it now. He's taking his sweet, small-town South Carolina time on it, and he's making up stories to avoid simply telling me it's not done yet.

Which does tick me off -- I'd rather the guy just say "I'm sorry it's taking me a lot longer than I said it would" than give me the run-around -- but right now my instinct is to give him a few more days. Thing is, this is the only decent guitar shop in town, and I want to be able to go in there without getting the stink-eye, even if I'd be 100 percent right in demanding the guitar back right now and not paying them a dime.

(Plus, if I do the work myself and screw something up, it's my fault and I'm screwed. But if I pay someone else to do it and he screws something up, it's his fault and he's got to make it right. Heh.)

[Wilko]

There's not much you can do that can't easily be fixed either by searching here, asking for help, or googling a good schematic.

Rewiring that guitar shouldn't have taken more than 1 hour with or without a meter. It's easy to tap a pickup and know if it's working.

Hard to see what that cheap japanese switch is doing but with a real fender/switchcraft switch you can see where the wires go and if the terminals are touching.

Don't let him charge you for taking a long time. It takes x-amount of time to rewire a guitar. 1 hour is a long time to solder/unsolder 5-10 joints.

But then again... small town life.

[refriedwhiskey]

Oh, I'm not paying by the hour. He quoted me a flat fee last time we talked, which I confirmed today.

Part of me would love to go in there and raise hell and get my guitar back and tell him why I'm not going to pay him for whatever work he's already done...but I'm also a big believer in the idea that you have to choose your battles carefully, and I honestly don't want to burn my bridges at the only good guitar store that's less than an hour's drive away.

Unless, you know...I have to.

[Wilko]

it's always better in the big picture to smooth opver stuff. you got it. pick your battles.

good luck

[refriedwhiskey]

Thanks, vampire dog!

[Wilko]

Dogula

[chuckocaster]

RW,

go down to rat shack and buy a soldering iron and do it yourself. it ain't hard and you'll save money in the end.

do they have any import strats in house? he could easily pull the guard off it and match the wiring to your switch.

this stuff isn't rocket science.

as for paying, fuck em. he's jerked you around, tell him to go kick rocks if he thinks you owe him anything.

[refriedwhiskey]

Dogula

Nice!

[Deadwood Jack]

Boy, what a drama, I think the bottom line here is simply this, if you play electric guitar, learn how to solder, it's simply stuff, learn how to set it up and don't be relying on others to do such simple work. This whole debacle is probably a good thing in the end if it gets you thinking that you can do this stuff easy. Maybe the switch is forked, maybe the guy's deaf dum n blind, who cares, this is a good lesson. My experience with dudes who work in music shops is that they don't know much more than nuthin most of the time. The word TECH annoys me as do the words " sound engineer" but that's another story. You just have to learn how to maintain your guitar, I can't believe guys pay other dudes to swap out pickups, now there's something anyone should be able to do. I know a guy who actually gets scared at the thought of removing the neck from a bolt on. Just get in there and do it.

[Wilko]

This is one of the many reasons TFF kicks ass. Guys who know what the fuck they're talking about, and are willing to go above and beyond the call of duty and TCB.

Wilko...

Well...


It's not like I'm building him an amp or anything.

[Plugger]

Boy, what a drama [...] This whole debacle is probably a good thing in the end if it gets you thinking that you can do this stuff easy. Maybe the switch is forked, maybe the guy's deaf dum n blind, who cares, this is a good lesson. My experience with dudes who work in music shops is that they don't know much more than nuthin most of the time.

Sage advice, Deadwood. If you play guitar, and want to keep your sanity, learn to do what you can. If you can solder, you can wire a guitar. Set yourself free.

I might even suggest politely to the tech that since he's so busy to get around to doing such a simple job, howza about he just gives you back the guitar, you'll do it yourself, and call it quits. Maybe you can buy the switch or something (wholesale price, of course.)

Let him know you think it's an easy job that you could do yourself in less than an hour if you had to, and you really only took it to a "pro" for convenience. But since it's all become such a drama...

Might allow him to save a bit of face, if not all of it, and thereby not burn all your bridges.

BTW, which resistor needs "testing"? I've not seen many wiring diagrams that involve more than pots and caps... are you sure there even _is_ such a resistor in this circuit? Just curious.

-Mark

[refriedwhiskey]

It's not like I'm building him an amp or anything.

I'll take a Mission 5E3 with a Big Ben. Thanks!

[refriedwhiskey]

BTW, which resistor needs "testing"? I've not seen many wiring diagrams that involve more than pots and caps... are you sure there even _is_ such a resistor in this circuit? Just curious.

Yeah, the updated wiring diagram for the Fender Vintage Noiseless set has a 220K resistor that seems to go across the first and second poles (or whatever they're called) of the volume pot, along with a 680pF capacitor.

I know this is something I could've done myself, if I went out and bought the necessary soldering/desoldering gear. But I took one look at the grainy, photocopied, black and white wiring diagram Fender E-mailed me, and it just looked like a huge fvcking hassle. If it had been a matter of simply swapping out the pickups -- just desoldering the old ones and soldering the leads from the new ones in their place -- I would've done it myself. But this was a matter of installing a whole new harness; pickups, pots, resistor, two caps...the diagram doesn't even show which wires to solder to which parts of the output jack.

So I decided to pay somebody else to do it. I had no idea that would become a fvcking hassle in its own right. It's real easy to look back now, seeing all the questionable excuses this guy has given me, and say "Dude, you should've done that shit yourself." But at the time, I thought I was saving myself some time and trouble.

Now: Assuming I get another excuse instead of a finished guitar next time I call this guy, what kind of wire do you guys recommend I buy to make the connections between the switch, pots, etc.? If I'm going to do this, I want to be sure I get the right quality, gauge, etc. Also: What kind of solder, and is there anything specific I should look for in a soldering iron for this kind of work (wattage, etc.)?

Also also: Can anyone point me to a site where I can see some color photos of Strat guts, so I can get some idea of what this black and white wiring diagram is trying to tell me?

Thanks.

[Plugger]

Yeah, the updated wiring diagram for the Fender Vintage Noiseless set has a 220K resistor that seems to go across the first and second poles (or whatever they're called) of the volume pot, along with a 680pF capacitor.

Yeah, that's sounds like a "treble bleed" circuit, makes sense.

So I decided to pay somebody else to do it. I had no idea that would become a fvcking hassle in its own right. It's real easy to look back now, seeing all the questionable excuses this guy has given me, and say "Dude, you should've done that shit yourself." But at the time, I thought I was saving myself some time and trouble.

Yeah, fair enough. I don't think anyone's trying to give you grief, rather just trying to be encouraging in undertaking this sort of thing, particularly since you've got a lot of people willing to help out in case you need it. Sorry if I came across as sounding critical or judgemental in any way -- not my intention.

Now: Assuming I get another excuse instead of a finished guitar next time I call this guy, what kind of wire do you guys recommend I buy to make the connections between the switch, pots, etc.? If I'm going to do this, I want to be sure I get the right quality, gauge, etc. Also: What kind of solder, and is there anything specific I should look for in a soldering iron for this kind of work (wattage, etc.)?

Well, I'm sure other people my have a different opinion, but for my money, copper is copper and the electrons don't really care too much about cloth covered wire or not. Some "vintage correct" guys like to have the look of the old wiring, and some say they can even hear a difference (!), but I don't lose sleep over it.

All I use is shielded single core audio cable... buy a couple of meters (six feet or so) and that should keep you going for a while.

For a soldering iron, 35w-50w is about right. You want it powerful enough to be able to melt the solder on the back of a pot... it can be done with a smaller iron, but is a bit trickier to do. You don't want anything much bigger as it will get unwieldy to use.

Ideally, a temp controlled soldering station is the go, but unless you are going to be doing this stuff on a reasonably regular basis, it's probably overkill.

Also also: Can anyone point me to a site where I can see some color photos of Strat guts, so I can get some idea of what this black and white wiring diagram is trying to tell me?

Thanks.

What I'd do first is to draw a map of the components (pots, pups, switch etc.) on a piece of paper in a roughly physically realistic relationship to each other. Then I'd I'd draw in the connections indicated on the schematic onto the map, maybe using different colours... which means you'll end up with a map which is much closer to the physical connections you'll be making. You can see exactly how many pieces of wire you'll need, how long they'll be, and so on. It may even make more sense to you once you see it laid out like this. Just a suggestion.

-Mark

[refriedwhiskey]

Thanks for all the info, Mark!

I didn't even know there was such a thing as cloth-covered wire. I assume that's what was used in the early Strats? So some folks think it yields a more "vintage" tone?

I don't guess I'll worry about it unless cloth somehow rejects noise better than plastic. Can't imagine that it would.

How about solder? I seem to remember there are different types, including a type you don't want to use on electronics...?

The map idea is an interesting one. I might give that a shot if I end up having to yank my guitar from this local tech's hands and do the work myself.

I did manage to find a better wiring schematic than the crappy one the Fender customer support guy sent me. Ironically, it was on the Fender site; the American Deluxe Strat wiring diagram, as opposed to the Vintage Noiseless Pickups diagram. It's much clearer.

[refriedwhiskey]

Okay, one more question for y'all:

Here's the clearer schematic I found on the Fender site. It's for the American Deluxe Strat, but it seems to use all the same components in the same places as the Vintage Noiseless schematic.

American Dlx Schematic

My question is: Am I right in thinking that the .022K cap on the middle pot is supposed to be soldered between the back of the pot and the third pole of the pot?

I may be jumping the gun with all these how-to questions. I hope I'm jumping the gun. I hope next time I call ye olde guitar shoppe, they'll say my axe is ready to pick up. But if not, I figure the more sure I am about what tools I need and where everything goes, the easier it'll be for me to tell the guy to just hand over the guitar and let me do it myself.

So thanks for any and all advice, folks.

[Plugger]

What you want is "resin cored solder". I use the 1mm diameter stuff, but you can use thicker stuff OK. Comes in rolls or "hobby tubes" for smaller amounts. Just ask for solder for PCB electronic work at the electronic supply place -- they'll steer you right. Tell them it's for a guitar and you'll probably end up talking with a guitar nerd who'll provide you all his preferences and prejudices on the fine art.

-Mark

[Plugger]

My question is: Am I right in thinking that the .022K cap on the middle pot is supposed to be soldered between the back of the pot and the third pole of the pot?

Yes, that's right. You can see the backs of all the pots are wired together, providing a common ground. So wiring the cap between the third lug of the pot and the back of the pot is wiring a cap between the pot and ground.

That's a pretty clear diagram. It sort of obviates the need for the map I was talking about --- it basically _is_ the map I was talking about.

If you have any further questions, I'm sure the fine folks at TFF will be ready to assist.

-Mark

[curt1lp]

Here's a suggestion:
get your hands on a beater guitar that you can use for soldering practice - then.. completely rewire it.

[cdw2000]

If you want to tackle this yourself, here are a couple tutorials on soldering. Just make sure you buy "rosen core solder" at Radio Shack, not the "acid core solder" like you would find at a hardware store.

http://www.aaroncake.net/electronics/solder.htm

http://www.mediacollege.com/misc/solder/index.html

I would practice on some scrap wire. Just strip the ends, twist them together and try to get a shiny joint where the wires are completely covered in solder, but you can still see the twisted form of the joint (not a giant glob of solder).

If you have any local guitar buddies or tech geeks that have soldered, see if they will look over your shoulder.

And again, you still have the option of sending one of us who offered(either Wilko or me) your pickguard assembly (you will still need to solder the ground wires and jack, of course). And if you need a resume before you trust me, let me know, I'm an electrical engineer with 20+ years soldering experience

Good luck.
-- Chris

[refriedwhiskey]

That's a pretty clear diagram. It sort of obviates the need for the map I was talking about --- it basically _is_ the map I was talking about.

Yeah. The funny thing is, it's smaller than the image the Fender support guy E-mailed me -- and yet it's much clearer. The one I got via E-mail looks like it was faxed about five times before somebody finally turned it into a .PDF; you can't even read the numbers on the pickups.

Thanks again to everybody for the advice, answers, and offers of help. Very remarkable. I'm pretty well convinced now I can do it myself if I have to. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[refriedwhiskey]

Okay, the guitar is back in my hands. It seems none the worse for wear, but it works even less than the guy told me on the phone. I don't know what happened to "It only works in the middle three switch positions," because in fact I'm getting no sound in any switch position.

The Vintage Noiseless pickups are in place, but they're doing nothing.

So: This guy will never see my guitar again, and he's not getting a red cent from me. I brought him a working guitar, and two weeks (that's right: two weeks) later, I took home a non-working guitar.

Honestly, I don't think he expects to hear from me again, let alone be paid. I got the distinct sense that he was relieved to have me come and take the thing off his hands.

Weird thing is, I'm sure he knows the guitar doesn't work even in the partial way he described to me over the phone last week -- and yet he put new strings on it before I picked it up. Why the hell did he bother? I guess he didn't want anyone else in the shop to know he was sending me home with a non-functioning guitar.

So I'll do what I should've done in the first place, right? It may be a day or two before I can get to the Shack of Radios and buy the necessary equipment, but I'm game now. I thought I'd save time and effort by paying somebody else to do it, but I could've done it myself ten times in the time it took this guy to f**k it up.

In case anyone here lives in the "Upstate" South Carolina area, the shop in question was Draisen Edwards in Anderson, SC. I can't recommend taking your guitar in there for anything other than having the strings changed...which nobody should pay to have done anyhow.

[refriedwhiskey]

Okay, it gets worse:

I couldn't wait to see if I could figure out what the guy did wrong, so I went ahead and took off the strings (there goes a brand new set, and this store doesn't sell my brand, so I'll have to mail-order new ones), and I took off the pickguard.

Imagine my surprise at finding a Fender Strat switch in there. That's right; the part he claimed to be waiting for. The part he said had not come in yet. Fender Part #51993. A standard Stratocaster 5-way switch.

So what did this guy do in the two weeks he's had the guitar? Well, one thing he managed to do is put one of the pots in the wrong position. When I brought the guitar and the pickup set in, I told him "These come with two 1Meg pots for the tone controls and one 500K pot for the volume." And I handed him the Fender-supplied, updated wiring diagram that showed the 500K pot in the volume position and the other two pots in the tone position.

Which naturally led him to put the 500K pot in one of the tone positions and use the 1Meg pots for volume and the other tone.

The rest of the work...it's not good. One wire that's supposed to run from the switch to the volume pot isn't even soldered; it either came loose, or he never connected it. The soldering overall looks pretty sloppy to me. I think I can call up my mad Heathkit skillz from 20-cough years ago and do a better job.

All of which, I believe, entitles me to use one of these:

[Wilko]

Sorry to read of this BS.

Well, once you've fixed one of these yourself, you can rule the world.

"teach a man to fish"

[refriedwhiskey]

Damn straight.

I just can't believe people like this exist. If you're not 100 percent sure you can do a job, don't take the job! And if you're having trouble, don't lie about it.

I actually half hope the guy does call me to discuss what I owe him. I'm usually a guy who avoids confrontation at all cost, but this is one confrontation I wouldn't mind having.

I don't think it'll happen, though. I have a feeling this guy is just hoping I don't raise a stink about all the wasted time and the crappy job he did.

Turns out I may have been way off about Draisen Edwards being the only decent guitar shop in town, too. I did a local.google.com search for guitar shops in the area, hoping to find somebody who sells my beloved GHS Boomer Custom Lights, and it turned up this:

Guitar Cabin in Anderson, SC.

Maybe 10-15 minutes from my house.

I just called 'em, and they've got my Boomers. Looks like a pretty good shop, too. I probably should've taken my axe to them, if I was determined to pay somebody to do the work, huh?

(In my defense, I haven't lived here a year, and I work at home, so how did I know?! )