WWJD?

[thinline]

>>>Strummy guitar pop songs that are all about the singer leave me stone cold, whether he's singing about a girl or a god.

Jim, that's a sub-topic that's actively being debated in Catholic musician circles presently! Take, as real examples, two songs written in the late 1980s or so; one is titled "You Are The Light Of The World" and the other is titled "We Are The Light Of The World."

Which one do you reckon praises God and which one pats the singers on the back in a congratulatory manner for embracing Christianity? Neither song will ever be mistaken for an old-time hymn, but one is clearly less effective in a Mass setting.

Or, how about "Here I Am, Lord" which conjures up an image of a group of singers waving at the Lord -- see where we are now, God? Look......now we're over here! How silly!

Finally, songs that speak from the perspective of God seema bit over-the-top, too. "I Am The Bread Of Life" could have easily been written in a more worshipful way if revised as "He Is The Bread Of Life."

I only used to pay attention to the melody and feel of a hymn (song), probably because I'm not a singer. But since becoming a music director, I've become acutely aware that a lot of modern worship music lyrics tend to be focused on the singers and not God.

[Wilko]

Very interesting take on those songs...

I used to play those in the catholic church. Most are very accurate takes on gospels and are sung as such. they are specially effective when that gospel was the reading of that week. Happens pretty frequently as those are popular gospels that are re-run quite a bit in Catholic masses. Others are from psalms and such. That sone called "charity" (When I was a child, I spoke and I thouight as a child...)

Abouth first person perspective on songs like "here I am, Lord" that stance is a very popular one in American hymns for a long time. "Amazing Grace", "Just a closer walk...", etc.

[refin]

WWJD? I can only imagine.

Now THAT'S a great song :lol

("I Can Only Imagine" by Mercy Me)

[thinline]

Wilko, I agree with you re: first person songs have a place in the American tradition. Nothing wrong with them, per se. I love Austin Miles "In The Garden" and the old standard, "How Can I Keep From Singing?"

My point was that (to my ears) personal perspective songs seem to be the only format being written these days (since Vatican II) across all Christian denomintations. Many songs come across as love songs with zero references to God, but chock full of lines that talk about how some vague "you" has changed my life, made me a better person etc...(the lyrics have a certain secular sensibility to them). There was a 16 year old girl at my parish who burned numerous CD's for me filled with these songs, hoping to see them introduced into the Mass; she even had choreographed moves for each song (placing her hands over her heart while singing and so on....).

Such songs are fine for worship meetings and the like, but not germaine to the concept of the Catholic Mass, which is about the re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice for us, not the fruits of that sacrifice in terms of our own personal behavioral changes. The fruits of His sacrifice re: our own conversions doesn't necessarily need a soundtrack and can be witnessed during the 167 hours that exist between Sunday church services.

There's an absence of hymns today that reflect the mysteries of the faith (i.e. transubstantiation, the resurrection, immaculate conception etc...) within the Mass, but a glut a songs that focus on "us" as followers of Christ.

When Christ ceases to be the focus of any form of worship, we've crossed a line, especially if we've replaced the Lord by focusing on how great we are!

Seems there's much more (lyrically) to write about than is being published today.

Not to steer away from the pedalboard, BTW, because I think some of those effects could certainly be used to create an almost supernatural "sound" if used properly, although as many have posted here, the simplicity of chant, harmony and the old pipe organ can just as easily accomplish the very same. Some people simply think that because it's old-fashioned, it's outlived its usefullness. But God is timeless; it's our own tastes that go in and out of style.

I have less of an issue with the pedalboard than the lyrical content of the music its used to support, although I will reiterate what I posted previously: if the music you hear at church sounds like secular music (e.g. something you'd listen to in the car on your way to church, or the mall) why do you need to go to church at all?

There has to be something bigger than the music, something more important after the music stops playing if the people are going to remain in the church, regardless of denomination.

[BoB/335]

Wow! What a thread. I was booted off the "other" forum for asking similar questions as these. And I think that conversation was toeing the line more and I and it still got booted.

Our church was pretty large and had masses for each type of service people would like to attend. 7:30 am for the quiet somber "old folks mass" 9:00 am was the organ music chior style mass. 10:30 was the "youth mass" with the young folk/rock style and 12 noon was another quiet mass with hymns. I worked the Saturday evening 5:00 mass which was a mix of youth and older folks who liked music and I led the "family folk group" and we did a mix of the same songs the "youth group" did with more bluegrass/folk type stuff and whatever else we felt like doing including traditional hymns or rock.

1 Cor. 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Paul saw the importance of being all things to all men for the sake of the message getting through.

if prayer (songs or praise) can be found anywhere, why bother looking for it in church? Could be a reason why church attendence is down.

I just wrote a paper on What Is The Church. The church is NOT a building. Prayer, Praise and fellowship SHOULD be found "anywhere" and EVERYWHERE. The message would be more effectictive outside of 4 walls.

Anyway, there needs to be a balance in the worship attitude. I think God wants us to have a joyous, fun time at church. My 11 yr. old daughter just told me that on her way out of the door for school after she asks me what I was doing on the computer. I attend a Baptist Church. (Not a Southern Baptist. It's a Conservative Baptist of America Church. CBA) I don't know anything about CBA but this church seems to have a healthy balance in its doctrine and worship. We have a Praise Band. I ofter play drums only because they have a drum set and no drummer. I have played guitar from time to time. The band has drums, bass, keys, acoustic, and electric guitar and several singers. No one is paid. It is important to pray before service starts asking God to keep your hearts right before Him. There is a fine line between worship and entertainment. But at the same time I believe that we should enjoy what we are doing and have fun. God wants us to be ourselves before Him. No Sunday faces.

When I play guitar I use a Boss chorus and an OD for some solos with my 335 through my Princeton Reverb. The other guitarist uses several pedals including a metal zone at times but is far from a metal player. Reverence is in the attitude.
The Praise Band is followed by the church organ with a hymn or two. They try to have a balance in the worship for everyone.

[BoB/335]

My point was that (to my ears) personal perspective songs seem to be the only format being written these days (since Vatican II) across all Christian denomintations.

That's a terrible generalization. There is a difference between Praise and Worship music (of which there is plenty of good stuff) and Christian entertainment music. As a Christian I am glad that we don't have to separate our church life from our secular life like in the days of past. People would have their church music in church and then listen to the music of the world the rest of their week. I am not judging the music of the world but it sure is nice to have good music with a good message available to us today daily.

We also need to have a balance to how we steward our time, talents and treasures. It's easy for me to pass judgement about that pedalboard above. Heck I feel guilty about the FD2 I just bought. There is no easy answer to how much is too much. But I do know that we need to steer clear of all the passing judgement calls we tend to make on a daily basis.

[95strat]

...if the music you hear at church sounds like secular music (e.g. something you'd listen to in the car on your way to church, or the mall) why do you need to go to church at all?

It's not just the music that brings people to church. It may be one aspect and if it is great! Maybe the music will bring people in. At least they are there and will here the message. Maybe seeds of truth will be planted and God will cause them to grow leading that person to salvation!

Many hymns were taken from secular songs in their day, but the words were changed. Several were songs sang at bars. The melodies were familiar to folks that didn't go to "church", but when they visited there was something they could relate to.

I'm not saying hymns have "outlived their usefulness," but my point is hymns were written in the past and were relevant to the times the authors wrote in. For some reason people think they are "holy" because they sound old, or religious.

There are many talented people today that God has gifted to write songs. I'm not saying don't do hymns...sing them all you want, perform them in mass or services, but the Bible does say several times, "sing a new song to the Lord." I believe the church is to be relevant to society. Why should we be so old and "religious"? What's attractive about that? We are in this world, but not of it. I don’t see anything wrong with playing or singing modern music.

The church I attend opened a service with Van Halen’s “Eruption”. You may see this a irreverent, but it was amazing to hear an incredibly complex piece of modern music played by a talented guitarist that loves God and uses his talents to glorify Him. After that we launched in to a worship song. How crazy is that? The cool thing is we see so many “nonchurched” people attending church because they can relate to the modern music and the message.

As BoB/335 quoted 1Cor 9: “I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.” It’s all about the great commission…making disciples, not just believers.

[BoB/335]

I'm not sure I see how Eruption would glorify God.

The last church I attended did a lot of hymns with the Praise Band. It was still quite recognizable and we had fun doing them. I'm not so sure I care for the church organ version we do now so much. But that's not why I attend church.

[Rickenjangle]

I personally don't have a problem with Eruption being played in church...as long as it's all done in fun...my personal opinion is that church does not have to be - and should never be - boring...

And I find that I can find some greater Truths within secular music, too. I know that we all bring our own biases to the lyrics of a song, but for some reason the Eagles' Learn To Be Still can be a profoundly worshipful experience for me...as can Bach and Mozart and ... the list goes on...why should we have to compartmentalize our lives?

[BoB/335]

...why should we have to compartmentalize our lives?

Everything a believer says and does should glorify God. It's just that a corporate worship setting is somehow different. It's the reason people are coming together. A believer is resposible for not laying stumbling blocks either. This is a great responsibilty and has a balance in it just like everything else.
I actually said "I'm not sure I see how Eruption would glorify God." It would be great for someone to email me to show me how it would.(I don't want to get dob'ed)

Staying on the "performance" side of this discussion is an important one for me and the reason I got dob'ed at the "other" forum. I think I would be bothered to see a pedal board like the one above at a church setting only because "I" can't see how I could stay focussed while tap dancing. But that's just me. Three delays and so many OD's for any music seems a little overkill. The other guitarist in my band is a very good guitarist. He has an older rack mount multi pedal and he gets some great sounds out of it. I see him tap dancing sometimes and can't really hear much difference in the mix of everthing else. And that's in a secular setting. Playing music in a church setting is tough enough to stay focussed on the message. People getting mad if things aren't just right, some people getting paid and not others, some over-indulging in the sound all tends to detrach from what it's all about. I really do wonder sometimes What Would Jesus Do?

Edited to say: I agree that church shouldn't be boring. I would have thought that that already came across in my post. I just think there are others ways to keep it interesting than doing songs like Eruption.

[Cogs]

I'm not sure I see how Eruption would glorify God.

You need to go see Phil Keaggy some time:lol

[Mikey]

I was involved as a drummer for 7 years at our church.
I stopped last September for a number of reasons but I guess the main reason was that my involvement got to be just to much in the way of my worship time.
I found that I didn't need the stress and all the details of doing the service to get in the way.
All music has it's purpose and "one size does not fit all". I've always been a proponent of If you like it good, if you don't, find some you do.
As far as that pedal board goes, Not my cup of tea, I'm a minimalist, but I can see the need depending upon what the music calls for in that specific situation. Overkill? Yes IMHO, but who am I to judge what another needs to do? I have enough of my own problems to deal with.
BTW, I was raised Catolic and thought it completely "freeing" to have heard The Hollies' "He Ain't Heavy" the first time in church. I moved on to a Fundamentalist church and saw legalism at it's zenith then moved to our present community church. I'll call it "All-denominational" since we'll let anybody in.

[Mikey]

OH, +1 on the Phil Keaggy comment.

[Rickenjangle]

+10 for Keaggy...as for Eruption, I'm not sure I'd use it to lead off a worship service, either, but I guess I should have said that I wouldn't preclude it being used in some way for God's glory...but, as a piece of instrumental music, it is not inherently sacred nor profane.

As for the pedalboard issue, I'm gonna say that the trend toward bigger and more elaborate pedalboards is not unique to this guy...I've seen pics of pedalboards used by bands like Mercy Me and Passion and Paul Baloche's guitarist, and they're pretty elaborate. Lots of modulations and delays and overdrive textures in modern worship.

My pedal collection keeps growing, but I use them more as studio tools; my onstage philosophy is KISS...otherwise it's not a pretty sight...

By the way, Mikey...you added extra drums and cymbals to your setup...so I don't know that I'd call you a minimalist, you !

:))

[Wilko]

I'm not sure I see how Eruption would glorify God.

Sure you do. From your own citation of 1st Corinthians:

1 Cor. 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.

In other words, To the rockers I became a rocker, to win the rockers.

If the rockers need to see you shred on a guitar (with God given talents) then you shred.

[Folk_guy]

This has been a great thread, and it is amazing how we have been able to discuss such a volitile issue, in such a cival manner. I too would add my name to the list of Phil Keagey admirers. I've seen him in concert solo, and was amazed and what he could get out of a single guitar, and some looping effects.

[Cogs]

& I wasn't saying that Phil would play Eruption specifically. But he can do that two-handed stuff like nobody's business!

[95strat]

Dude, I wish I could elaborate more, but I have to go home and take care of my wife...she has the flu. And great discussion. I appreciate it all being said in a civil manner as well. I have no problem with "traditional" church services by the way. Different styles suit different people...my main point is that we can use contemporary styles of music in church.

Note: "Eruption" was used as a prelude (a way to let people know things are starting so get in the auditorium and take a seat).

Here's a link to the service. (For legal purposes we do pay for the rights to publish all music played over the internet...just to let the moderator know). And please note the mix is not so great...sorry...we are working on that:

http://www.zchurch.com/interactive%2...=E&media=video

[BoB/335]

In other words, To the rockers I became a rocker, to win the rockers.

And I totally agree with that and there is plenty of rock and shred music for Christians. A call to worship should be just that. I don't want to argue the point. I think Van Halen is an excellent guitarist. I listen to plenty of secular music and I'm in a band doing female fronted classic/dance part rock. I just think that there are plenty of better choices than to show off a bunch of guitar licks and drawing attention that should be being focussed elsewhere. As a musician I appreciate a good Praise Band but I don't want to be drawn into the trap of worshipping the worship.

[Mikey]

RJ,
I meant minimalist on the guitar side. On the drum side, I guess I'm a "mid-minimalist". Meaning I need to have colors and textures enough to do the job. I only need to have my aux hats, and a side snare added to the present setup to make my sonic paintings, Neal Peart, on the other hand.....

[refin]

As I stated a few pages ago,be who YOU are and were created to be...anything else is clown makeup.This is not to throw out "Being all things to all men"---that scripture justifies the diversity in the church.
When we say "If I don't like it,then God doesn't" we become musical Pharisees.
I think we would be surprised what He does like--but it starts with the right heart attitude.

[Cogs]

refin- great post!

[BoB/335]

I think "being all things to all men" is to possibly win those OUTSIDE of the church.