Fender gurus! Do all U.S. vintage reissue strats have nitro finishes?

[zenpeace69]

I am talking about the series they started making back in 1984 and continue to make today. The site lists the contemporary ones as having nitro bodies and necks. My question is, have they always had nitro finishes? Would any and all U.S. Vintage reissues have nitro?

I am looking for a '57 reissue. It seems as though it may be my ultimate strat (alder body, maple neck, quality pickups-construction, cool vintage vibe). I just want to be sure that they have nitro finish for the wear and tone factor.

What's the word?

Thanks in advance...

[Dwell]

They all do, but it's nitro over a poly base coat on the bodies. Only the Custom Shop models feature true nitro.

[zenpeace69]

They all do, but it's nitro over a poly base coat on the bodies. Only the Custom Shop models feature true nitro.

Someone else, somewhere else, says that is incorrect. Also, it doesn't make much sense. Why would they do such a thing? Why poly beneath nitro? Why not just use the nitro alone? Also, I have seen a couple that had dings that go through the finish unlike a poly would. Real soft and thin like an LP's finish.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the subject?

[Kap'n]

Someone else, somewhere else, says that is incorrect. Also, it doesn't make much sense. Why would they do such a thing? Why poly beneath nitro? Why not just use the nitro alone? Also, I have seen a couple that had dings that go through the finish unlike a poly would. Real soft and thin like an LP's finish.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the subject?

I don't know whether they do it or not, but if they do, it's related to the VOC - volatile organic compounds, in nitro lacquer. There are very strict limits to the amount a company can produce, especially in California.

[Cogs]

Someone else, somewhere else, says that is incorrect. Also, it doesn't make much sense. Why would they do such a thing? Why poly beneath nitro? Why not just use the nitro alone? Also, I have seen a couple that had dings that go through the finish unlike a poly would. Real soft and thin like an LP's finish.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the subject?

Who says, & where?
It does make a lot of sense to use poly undercoats if you are a huge company trying to save money & you are under all sorts of environmental restraints. The ideal finish on a guitar is one that is very smooth, like glass. It takes a lot of material to get it like that, & poly will go on smoother that nitro anyway; so your sealer & base coats go on as poly saving you all kinds of time & money.
Most all the RI Strats & Teles I've seen have very thick, goopy looking coats on them & when the finish is damaged it usually chips instead of flakes like pure nitro would.

[zenpeace69]

It was written in some faraway place written on whatever it is they write on there...

Anyhow, why would fender call it a plain nitro finish if it really isn't . I wish they would pick up the damn customer service phone.

[Offshore Angler]

It is indeed nitro over poly. There was actually an article in an engineering publication that described the process. I can't remember what the poly is, but the nitro is, in some cases such as the Highway 1's, a Sherwin Williams product.

That's why we all laughed at the cork sniffers who claimed their Highway Ones has superior tone because of the nitro finish! Since then, the nitro vs poly debate has been pretty well put to rest.

[fezz parka]

Mark Kendrick says poly with nitro topcoat. He'd know.

[JM3]

fender 52 Tele RI spec says Nitro

[fezz parka]

fender 52 Tele RI spec says Nitro

It's nitro over poly.

Here's Kendrick's quote:

The first Fender lap steel was finished in black enamel. When Doc Kauffman and Leo formed K&F guitars in 1945, their original instruments, including the amplifiers, were finished in a lead based, wrinkle coat enamel. A nice shade of Battleship Grey. That was the only color available. After expermenting with different woods other than pine for guitars, they began using nitrocellulose lacquer. They used what was available to the furniture trade at the time.
The original colors were blonde, sunburst, etc... just like your Grandmas coffee table.

Custom colors were introduced in 1955. Once again they were enamel. The same material they used in the auto industry. The enamel would not adhere to the stearate based nitocellulose sanding sealer. Acrylic lacquers were then developed by Dupont to be sprayed on material other than metal. "Duco colors". In order for the paint to adhere, Fender began using a Sherwin Williams product called Homoclad. It was a penetrating, heavy solid, oil based sealer used as a barrier coat to to provide better adhesion for their guitars with custom colors. It was applied by dipping the guitar bodies directly into a 55 gallon drum, filled with the product. ALL Fender guitars produced after 1955 used this product until 1967, when Fender began experimenting with polyesters an undercoat.

By 1968, virtually all Fender guitar products used polyester as an undercoat, including necks. It's a two part product using Methyl Ethyl Ketone(MEK) as a catalyst. The reason the face of the pegheads were not sealed with polyester, is because type 'C' decals (under the finish) would not adhere to the product. While it is true a few guitars may have squeaked by with homoclad, when homoclad wasn't available, they used a Fuller O'Brian product called Ful-O-Plast. PLASTIC!!! It's obvious to me that those necks or bodies were stragglers, having to be reworked for some reason or another and not shipped after the change.

I'd like to make one thing clear... ALL FENDER GUITARS PRODUCED AFTER 1968 HAD A POLYESTER UNDERCOAT WITH A LACQUER TOPCOAT!!! There is no specific ratio. Enough poly was, and is sprayed to properly fill the grain while preventig a burn through while sanding.

In 1983, Fender began using polyuerthane as a topcoat. It cured quicker. It had better clarity. It had more depth and gloss, and didn't melt when you accidently spilled 151 on it. Fender then discontinued the use of polyester on the necks. Polyurethane is a 2 part product using a catalyst.

Fender has continued to use polyester, polyurethane, nitro, homoclad, and Ful-O-Plast.

[zenpeace69]

Thanks for posting that, Fezz. So what the hell does all of this mean in terms of wear and tear? Are these guitars going to age like any poly would? If so, they have no right calling them nitro. I just dropped $1,200 bucks on a brand new '62 reissue. One of the reasons I chose to do so was because of the nitro finish. I was expecting that this guitar would age like any of the pre-68 models. I was planning to beat the crap out of it, actually. = )

What about Gibson guitars? Those LP's (even the studios) have a great nitro finish that wears right off. I had a '94 Studio that had a neck that was beginning to wear down. It looked pretty cool. My 1981 Standard has developed some very cool wear marks, as well.

They should have their guitars nitro finished down in Mexico and brought back up to be completed in Corona. Find a loop-hole in the system.

[Offshore Angler]

zenpeace69, They age beautifully. The necks will not lose the finish, but the bodies do well. If you look at the Upstate Jam pics, there's a picture of my Strat on the pool table. When I bought it in 1989 it was a gleaming Olympic White. Today, it has aged to an absolutely perfect vintage cream color, with white highlights on the wear surfaces.

I don't understand what the big deal is with the nitro. When it wears off the necks, the neck is pretty well doomed from that point on. It will get unstable due to the moisture and acids in your sweat. One in about 5 or 6 necks I see with the finish worn off are unusable due to warping. Bowling alley wax helps, but it's a pain.

Look at Fenderboy's new Strat. Looks, feels, plays, and sounds perfect. Why worry about the paint? That guitar is perfect the way it is. Fenders are Fenders. You just need to accept them for what they are and not what they aren't.

Plus, the fashion statement of a beat-up guitar is becoming passe'. It's now kind of like having stickers all over your guitar was in the late nineties.

Just find one you like, play it and enjoy it the way it is, IMHO.

[69strat]

"When it wears off the necks, the neck is pretty well doomed from that point on. It will get unstable due to the moisture and acids in your sweat."-

Offshore Angler

Man, when the finish wears from the neck is when she really becomes a player. That's when the magic takes over and more and more that guitar becomes part of you, as your feel shape that and your oils are part of that guitar. It's a beautiful thing.

My '66 strat, Nocaster have worn away all the finish off the back. Never had any problem. Ernie Balls, Peavey Wolfgangs, old charvels etc.. all have bare wood, or simply oiled necks.

you ever feel an old pool cue, from a real billiards player? That is THEIR cue and they can work magic with it. It's a truly beautiful thing.

[Offshore Angler]

[QUOTE=joe mamaMan, when the finish wears from the neck is when she really becomes a player. That's when the magic takes over and more and more that guitar becomes part of you, as your feel shape that and your oils are part of that guitar. It's a beautiful thing.

[/QUOTE]
Ahh, that's a bunch of hooey. When we're playing to a good crowd and the band is on the very last thing in my mind is what the neck of the guitar is finished like. All I care about is how it sounds and plays. And the new ones feel just as good as the old ones.

Old shit is old shit. Half the vintage peices I get to play that the music store want's telephone numbers for are basically unplayable. The rest are OK but nothing particularly special. I have just as much, probably more- chance of finding a keeper in the new racks. My old Strat was retired because it sounded like crap, and yet, somebody will have to pay thousands to liberate it from the HOG.

Sure, a few years back older instruments got popular because Fender was putting out some dogs, but the new stuff today is just plain better than the older vintage peices. Sounds better, plays better, looks better. Even some of the Mexican guitars are getting nice. I've seen some MIMs that are probably as nice as the MIA from a few years back.

Sure, I could play a $40,000 1954 Strat, but it won't make me a better player. It's all hype, plain and simple. I say again, look at Fenderboy's new Strat and tell me it wouldn't inspire you. That thing is the dog's balls. I'll take it over any vintage peice, any day.

And I'll stand by my comment on the necks. LP's are famous for drying out and splitting, Fenders for warping and having the frets fall out because the finish wore off the board and the wood dryed out. Even Clapton retired Blackie for that very reason.

[zenpeace69]

Hey Offshore, I was looking for a pic of your American Vintage Reissue in the Upstate Jam threads (I found 3) but I didn't see any pictures. Which thread is it in?

thanks

[69strat]

Offshore, you're entilted to that opinion. I can understand that side of it as well. You probably like those super stiff, cardboard Levis too.

It's not "hooey" when I love the feel of a worn in neck and play much better when I'm not sticking to the back of the neck like "new Nikes on a gym floor".

sure, I love some of the MIM. I had a couple. First thing I did was sand off that nasty satin neck finish. Get it to wood, shape it to MY hand, take a shot glass and compress the wood, then maybe a little gunstock oil. Usually I leave it bare.

After playing the hell out of it, that neck feels incredible, and everyone wants to buy it! I can't tell you how many offers from pro guitarists I get for that unfinished feel.

I just bought a Fender custom shop strat which came from Fender with no neck finish on the back. I paid a bunch but this way it's warranteed.

Clapton retired Blackie because it had so many refrets and from the course of playing the both sides of the neck wore down so much, the E strings wouldn't stay on the board any longer. It's in a recent hard back book by Fender.

[Nathan Kwok]

Thanks for posting that, Fezz. So what the hell does all of this mean in terms of wear and tear? Are these guitars going to age like any poly would? If so, they have no right calling them nitro. I just dropped $1,200 bucks on a brand new '62 reissue. One of the reasons I chose to do so was because of the nitro finish. I was expecting that this guitar would age like any of the pre-68 models. I was planning to beat the crap out of it, actually. = )

What about Gibson guitars? Those LP's (even the studios) have a great nitro finish that wears right off. I had a '94 Studio that had a neck that was beginning to wear down. It looked pretty cool. My 1981 Standard has developed some very cool wear marks, as well.

They should have their guitars nitro finished down in Mexico and brought back up to be completed in Corona. Find a loop-hole in the system.

Zen,
The nitro on your AV should wear more or less like a "true" nitro guitar. Both the color coat and clearcoat are nitro, so by the time you wear down to the poly undercoat you are looking at bare wood (the undercoat is just slightly tinted). The undercoat is poly not due to environmental reasons. In fact, because Fender has a modern and very sophisticated emissions control system they can spray as much nitro as they want. The poly undercoat is just less labor intensive to finish because it can cure more quickly and is easier to sand smooth. It also helps stabilize the nitro on top of it to reduce checking, and more importantly, grain sinkage, which is something Fender receives a lot of complaints about. It will still weather check over time if you don't take proper care of the guitar, and you MUST treat the finish like any other nitro finish, don't get the impression that there is just a thin layer of clear nitro over an otherwise normal poly finish and therefore you don't need to take nitro-specific precautions. FWIW, early reissues did use all nitro, I don't know exactly when they switched to a poly undercoat.

[hudpucker]

FWIW, early reissues did use all nitro, I don't know exactly when they switched to a poly undercoat.

Any proof? I'm interested in a definitive answer on this and not just conjecture or misinformation (not that you'd try to pass off misinformation intentionally, mind you).

[Marcondo]

All the Fender Vintage reissue series that started in 82 have been poly with nitro finish coats. Its poly undercoats poly color coats and just the top 2-3 coats of finish is nitro.

Thats how they have always made them.

The only all nitro finished new Fender you can get is the time machine series.

[SteveB334]

Any proof? I'm interested in a definitive answer on this and not just conjecture or misinformation (not that you'd try to pass off misinformation intentionally, mind you).

I heard of this too. I don't believe it. I honestly believe it started on another forum then trickled to ebay where people with first year RI's are making some good money off of them usining this info. I may be wrong though. I do know one thing I will take the redesigned RI's over any of the older ones anyday.

[SteveB334]

All the Fender Vintage reissue series that started in 82 have been poly with nitro finish coats. Its poly undercoats poly color coats and just the top 2-3 coats of finish is nitro.

Thats how they have always made them.

The only all nitro finished new Fender you can get is the time machine series.

Here is the link to what Fezz is talking about:

http://www.fenderforum.com/forum.htm...c_number=50113

Look for Mark Kendrick's post

[fezz parka]

Steve, I posted his entire quote above...

But the following posts are very informative. Kendrick knows his stuff...

[SteveB334]

Duh lol Well atleast there is the link in case anyone disputes it.

Mark where did you hear it was poly color too?

[Marcondo]

Duh lol Well atleast there is the link in case anyone disputes it.

Mark where did you hear it was poly color too?

I have helped refinish 5-6 Strat and tele Vintage reissues.

They have all been the same the nitro just wipes off easily with stripper the poly is much harder to remove sometimes you have to leave the guitar in a garbage bag overnight so the stripper works better.

[SteveB334]

I have helped refinish 5-6 Strat and tele Vintage reissues.

They have all been the same the nitro just wipes off easily with stripper the poly is much harder to remove sometimes you have to leave the guitar in a garbage bag overnight so the stripper works better.

Any pics of the process? I'd love to see it.

[Marcondo]

No pics but I can find some pics of the early ri's that are worn and you can easily see its not nitro.

here is the nitro vs poly thread I always use its by mark kendrick who has worked at Fender for years. A little more complete than the one posted above.

Pardon my typos. I've lost alot of brain cells in my day. Could it be the 'Nitro'.

The first Fender lap steel was finished in black enamel. When Doc Kauffman and Leo formed K&F guitars in 1945, their original instruments, including the amplifiers, were finished in a lead based, wrinkle coat enamel. A nice shade of Battleship Grey. That was the only color available. After expermenting with different woods other than pine for guitars, they began using nitrocellulose lacquer. They used what was available to the furniture trade at the time.
The original colors were blonde, sunburst, etc... just like your Grandmas coffee table.

Custom colors were introduced in 1955. Once again they were enamel. The same material they used in the auto industry. The enamel would not adhere to the stearate based nitocellulose sanding sealer. Acrylic lacquers were then developed by Dupont to be sprayed on material other than metal. "Duco colors". In order for the paint to adhere, Fender began using a Sherwin Williams product called Homoclad. It was a penetrating, heavy solid, oil based sealer used as a barrier coat to to provide better adhesion for their guitars with custom colors. It was applied by dipping the guitar bodies directly into a 55 gallon drum, filled with the product. ALL Fender guitars produced after 1955 used this product until 1967, when Fender began experimenting with polyesters an undercoat.

By 1968, virtually all Fender guitar products used polyester as an undercoat, including necks. It's a two part product using Methyl Ethyl Ketone(MEK) as a catalyst. The reason the face of the pegheads were not sealed with polyester, is because type 'C' decals (under the finish) would not adhere to the product. While it is true a few guitars may have squeaked by with homoclad, when homoclad wasn't available, they used a Fuller O'Brian product called Ful-O-Plast. PLASTIC!!! It's obvious to me that those necks or bodies were stragglers, having to be reworked for some reason or another and not shipped after the change.

I'd like to make one thing clear... ALL FENDER GUITARS PRODUCED AFTER 1968 HAD A POLYESTER UNDERCOAT WITH A LACQUER TOPCOAT!!! There is no specific ratio. Enough poly was, and is sprayed to properly fill the grain while preventig a burn through while sanding.

In 1983, Fender began using polyuerthane as a topcoat. It cured quicker. It had better clarity. It had more depth and gloss, and didn't melt when you accidently spilled 151 on it. Fender then discontinued the use of polyester on the necks. Polyurethane is a 2 part product using a catalyst.

Fender has continued to use polyester, polyurethane, nitro, homoclad, and Ful-O-Plast.

Nitro is not a superior finish. An electric guitar doesn't 'breathe' at 120 db.

My first year at Fender I personally painted approximately 46,000 guitars. I like polyester. I like Nitro colors too. But maybe I'll let the players that use poly (ester or urethane) speak for themselves...

Billy Gibbons, Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson, Joe Perry, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Roccco Prestia, Jimmie Vaughn, Nils Lofgren, Vince Gill, Chet Atkins, Tom Hamilton, Lenny Kravitz, Merle Haggard, Don Rich, Darryl Jones, Mike Stern, Larry Carlton, Peter Frampton, Sting, Marty Stuart, just to name a few. More are available upon request.

Hope this helps,

Mark K.

[SteveB334]

Yup,
that part is not disputed. You stated that the color coat was poly as well as the base. I'm not disputing the base coat is poly but I am diputing the fact that you said the color was as well.
The color coat should be nitro with clear nitro top coats.
Am I mistaken?

[Marcondo]

I know when I stripped them the color didnt come off easy but the clear finish came right off with a rag damp with stripper.

[Cogs]

I have had different experience stripping RI bodies. The ones I've worked on, both the top coats & the color coats came right off, but the poly "seal" coat took extra stripping & sanding. All the RIs I've seen that were worn naturally had this coffee table look in places where the wood was showing through because the top & color coats were gone. Very glassy, not grainy like the originals. BTW- the originals had poly, too. Just a real thin coat to sael the wood. Not layers & layers built up to make a smooth surface.

[zenpeace69]

Ok, I'm going to add some fuel to the fire.

I just got off the phone with Fender's customer support. The guy there says that the finishes on the American Vintage Reissue series are, "...all Nitro through and through." He says that every coat (sealer, color, clear) is nitocellulous based. In order to emphasize his point he stated that nitro won't stick to a poly basecoat. He says that it you can put poly over nitro, but not the other way around. It just won't stay on to dry.

So, more hubbub for the topic.

[SteveB334]

I guess now we could we all don't know what the heck it is. As long as it sounds good

[Marcondo]

All the people know at Fender customer service is what it says in a book they read off to the customers. Anyone who has stripped a 57/62ri STrat or 52ri Tele knows its not all nitro. maybe someone should call Fender and ask then why one of their master builders Mark Kendrick says all Fenders made after 68 are a poly basecoat. I choose to believe MK over some ex shoesalesman answering the phone at Fender. LOL

[JM3]

just bt a 52 RI as well as a custom AIMM ash butterscotch strat

Specs say nitro, thats what it is period i dont care iof its sealed with camel dung

[JM3]

During 1963 and 1964, when guitar production was really high, bodies destine to be a custom color often didn't get the yellow stain, Fullerplast, primer, and clear coat procedure. After all, if the shop was really in a hurry it can just spray the color coat right over the Alder without any preparation paint (if need be). All they did was spray more color coats (especially if a clear coat wasn't used). This would cost more in materials (custom color paint was the most expensive paint Fender used), but it sure was quick. And often, they didn't even clear coat the color. This was truly a "rush" paint job.

Some colors were really prone to "short cutting" by the Fender factory. For example, Sonic Blue (and to a lesser extent, Olympic White) often do not have the yellow stain. In the case of Sonic Blue, this might have happened because the yellow stain was bleeding through to the blue. Other pastel colors were also shorted cutted, having no yellow stain, no Fullerplast, and/or no

[Offshore Angler]

Who feaking cares? Just play the danged thing. What difference does it make what it's painted with? If it plays good and sounds good it's a keeper.

And if anybody here tells me that they can tell the difference in tone I'm calling bullshit.

[Cogs]

It makes a difference if you work on them at all. I don't know if they sound differently, but I definitely know they FEEL differently.
If you don't think nitro over poly matters matters, then I'm sure you'd be just as happy playing one of these:

[Richard Hayes]

It makes a difference if you work on them at all. I don't know if they sound differently, but I definitely know they FEEL differently.
If you don't think nitro over poly matters matters, then I'm sure you'd be just as happy playing one of these:

:ahem

Am I missing something or is their something missing?

[Cogs]

Better?

[Cogs]

Here's another beauty! You'll be saving all that money while the goonie-birds are paying big bucks for that RI stuff!

[Cogs]