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Thread: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    On a scale of 1-10, I'm probably at 7 as a guitar player. I'm not interested in becoming a speedier lead guitarist.

    I am more interested in learning about chords. I play a shitload of chords whose names I don't know, lot of jazzy stuff. For some reason, my brain has a hard time wrapping itself around chord theory. I've tried instructional books and explanations on the web, but my ear is stronger than my ability to understand the mathematics of chord theory. I know the basics about 3rds, 4ths, 5th, 6ths, and 7ths. I understand majors and minors. I guess I want to know more about inversions.

    For example, I've written a new song on the piano that uses an A bass with the left hand and a G major triad with the right hand. I can transfer that to the guitar by playing something similar but not altogether satisfactory on the guitar. I guess I'm looking for ways of doing inversions and such.

    Any suggestions for how to approach learning more?
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    I taught myself inversions, and then learned about them in my theory class. Best answer I can give you is that you need to be able to spell the chord out. You don't have to be able to do it instantaneously. When I taught myself, I just goofed around until I found the notes I was looking for, then stopped and figured out the "why". In class, we had to sit down and chart out different pieces of music.

    Basically it all comes down to where you're coming from and where you're going to. I think of inversions as simply reordering the chord, which we do quite often on guitar. Piano, we can stack notes right on top of each other, not so easy on guitar since it's tuned in 4ths. I don't really know how to explain it much past that. I kinda cheat when I play inversions and start with stock shapes and then tweak them to what I'm looking for.
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

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    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    Geez, I think I understand this better than I can explain it. But, let me try...

    To me, I first think of chords as triads: there's a root, a third and a fifth. You can add, shift or shape these notes to change your chord, but (obviously) chords are named for their root. So to me, the root shape of a chord is expressed as the open E -- which I also think of as a 0-fret barre). I can also play an E on the fourth fret, using the open D shape. Another E can be played on the seventh fret, using the open A shape in barre form.

    Now, if you take the note number of the open chord shapes, you'll always come up with a form of the I-III-V. In the example above, the open/("barre") E's notes are B-E-G#. This is a root form for me, as the 6th string (which is barred in other octaves) is a root note, E. The second shape is also B-E-G#, but sounded an octave higher. I use this as a second form, because I frequently use my fourth finger on the D string on the 6th fret, which makes the root note a G#. The third form (the second of the two "power chord" shapes - the first is the E) is the open A shape, and the note of that chord is B.

    If you're familiar with the CAGED system, this is a somewhat simplified view, since it takes the C and G shapes out of the equation. Also note, that there's another E shape (in the key of E, that would be on the 6-5-4 strings at frets 7-7-6).

    Knowing that the three shapes always conform to the pattern 5-1-3, one can begin to flatten, diminish or augment just by a little shape-shifting.

    I haven't yet gotten to the place where I can play a E7#9 chord (the "Hendrix" chord) by plotting the notes on the fretboard. I just play it when it seems appropriate!

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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    Because I have discovered the secret to everything guitar I will share it here
    Just kidding
    But seriously though, in studying triads I was enabled by my reductionist tendencies to conclude that generally speaking their are only THREE CHORDS & THREE SHAPES . The three chords are MAJOR, MINOR, & DIMINISHED. And the three shapes are Root position, 1st in inversion, & 2nd inversion.
    Check it out:

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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    A major triad is: 1 - 3 - 5
    A minor triad is: 1 - 3b -5
    A diminished triad is: 1 - 3b - 5b

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    Basic chords start with the tonic and move upwards. If you re-order them then that's an inversion.

    However ....

    A chord is only what it is when it stands by itself. When it's combined with another tone it can change drastically because of the context you put it in.

    The example you give is a good one. If you simply add an A to Gmaj, triad you can have one of several things happening.

    For example, the A could merely be a "passing tone" which is setting the listener's ears up for a melodic move, or a pending chord change.

    If the A is played above the G in sustained chord it's what we sometimes refer to as a "cluster chord" and should immediately transport you back to the late 60's and 70's. Elton John's Rocket man, the Who's Behind Blue Eyes, and more as you listen for it.

    You can look the low A as the tonic and stay it's an inversion of a sus4 chord.

    I can go on for hours but really, it all depends on the context. What's the context? It's the key we're playing in. Chords in a song by themselves cannot be named until you know the key. Why? Look at the staff. If the key signature has two sharps we know we're in D major. But if you only looked at the notes on the staff without referring to the key signature you the triad DFA you see wouldn't be a D major chord, since without the sharp on the top line of the staff imposed by the key signature you'd have a Dm. ( Also why we never mix sharps and flats.)

    Long story short, it's all about the context and how the chord is placed WRT the melody. To say CEG is always a C maj chord is incorrect.

    A good exercise is to learn the "chord scales" for each key. Example C major - C, Dm, Em, F, G, ... and use them as a basis of construction for structure and melody. Once you get that down things get easy in a hurry.

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    Thanks guys, there's a lot for me to digest here. I'm going to sit with my guitar and look more closely at this thread after I've had coffee.

    I really appreciate the time you've taken to educate me, and I'll take some time to try to wrap my head (and fingers) around these lessons. All of it makes sense to me. I play diminished and augmented chords all the time but just don't understand the mathematics behind them. Maybe it'll all finally sink into my head.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    one thing I found that has helped tremendously in opening up my playing was to 'part out' the chords. By that I mean freeing myself from the tyranny of thought that one has to strum all 6 strings all the time in every chord. In Cogs illustrations of the chords and the first and second inversions, I can play the 1-3-5 in four different ways on each inversion and that doesn't include string skipping, which I've found easier once I incorporated hybrid picking into my playing style.

    I lack the skills to take those diagrams and modify them to illustrate what I mean so I'll try to type it out. From low E to high E on the root position:

    1-3-5 on strings 6-5-4

    3-5-1 on strings 5-4-3

    5-1-3 on strings 4-3-2

    1-3-5 on strings 3-2-1

    I can either strum these or pick them all at once with hybrid picking al a piano style. Knowing the notes of the scale in the key being played in, these 'parted out' chords make for references to melody phrases, riffs, motifs, fills what have you. Add in string skipping and it opens up even more possibilities.

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    Wow, great thread and great replies! I'll be following it eagerly

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheBluesMan View Post
    one thing I found that has helped tremendously in opening up my playing was to 'part out' the chords. By that I mean freeing myself from the tyranny of thought that one has to strum all 6 strings all the time in every chord. In Cogs illustrations of the chords and the first and second inversions, I can play the 1-3-5 in four different ways on each inversion and that doesn't include string skipping, which I've found easier once I incorporated hybrid picking into my playing style.

    I lack the skills to take those diagrams and modify them to illustrate what I mean so I'll try to type it out. From low E to high E on the root position:

    1-3-5 on strings 6-5-4

    3-5-1 on strings 5-4-3

    5-1-3 on strings 4-3-2

    1-3-5 on strings 3-2-1

    I can either strum these or pick them all at once with hybrid picking al a piano style. Knowing the notes of the scale in the key being played in, these 'parted out' chords make for references to melody phrases, riffs, motifs, fills what have you. Add in string skipping and it opens up even more possibilities.
    Everyone should bookmark this post. When I play rhythm, it's always on 3 strings or less unless its a flourish. You have to leave space for the rest of the band. Use your ears, find a hole and fill it.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    👍 Well said OA! I do a lot of what I call "keyboard chords". Basically triads on the top 3 strings, with as little movement as possible. Throw a little modulation and ambience on it and I can get a faux electric piano tone. Nice change of tonality and texture for certain songs
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    Quote Originally Posted by KennyF View Post
    THIS!!!

    I've seen a lot of people struggle over the years, trying to wrap their heads around music theory, just by remembering, what appears to be, just a bunch of formulas, that are all completely correct, but have no point of practical reference to ANYTHING useful for making music. Once you show them that they can grab the instrument and actually play chords in an ascending order, it seems like EVERYTHING becomes clear... In fact, in Chuck's Major key example, if you complete the scale by adding the A-dim, you will, (probably for the first time), HEAR how the A-dim resolves back to the C chord, and THAT is the beginning of understanding the "CONTEXT" that he is referring to...

    Try this... Using the F major scale, play the first three bar chords, F - Gm - Am with a sixth string root, and then play the remaining chords, Bb - C - Dm - Edim with a fifth string root, and then end by going back to the F... You now have a sonic reference for EVERYTHING in music theory...

    NEXT STOP??? Arpeggios...

    Just to clear things up, the A is actually an Am7 and the B is Bdim (Bm7b5).

    Once they get the chord scales, we can teach them how the intervals relate to the chords, such as a major scale HHhHHHh. People come up with myriad excuses why they don't need theory, but it's so easy we teach it to third-graders and once people understand it their playing jumps several levels in about a week.

    Chuck

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    I know my major and minor scales well, and I'm cool with playing major, minor, and maj / min 7th scales up and down the neck. I guess the problem for me, really, is understanding augmented and diminished chords well enough to play such inversions. I think I need to do my homework.

    A while back, some of you guys tried to explain augmented and diminished chord theory to me, but I just can't get it to seep into my brain. I suppose I need to find an explanation that makes sense to me. Your explanations were clear, but my brain just couldn't wrap itself around them. Again, I play the chords, but I don't understand the science behind them. Don't hate on me: I tend to just glaze over when it comes to such stuff.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    Willie,

    I was warming up last night and thought of you. Here's a great exercise for understanding inversions. Play a Gdim on the 2nd fret - xx2323. Now move that up to xx5656, then to xx8989. Write out the notes and figure out what just happened. Hopefully a bell will go off.

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    Thanks, Offshore.

    I just printed it out to work on today. I really appreciate you thinking of me.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    OA has some great ways to explain this.

    I know how to spell chords, but learned in college where we had to use the piano, and can't play it if my life depended on it. Luckily, my teacher would let me use my guitar. I spent a lot of time sitting and spelling them out.

    What I mostly do is use the top 3 or 4 strings, a slide the open D, A, E chords up and down, along with their minor version. When you get deep into chord theory you'll soon realize that you can "imply" a chord without using all the actual chord tones. That's when you get into 7's and 9's and various suspensions. It's a lot easier with a bass or another guitar player. But it's something you can do on your own
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckocaster View Post
    OA has some great ways to explain this.

    I know how to spell chords, but learned in college where we had to use the piano, and can't play it if my life depended on it. Luckily, my teacher would let me use my guitar. I spent a lot of time sitting and spelling them out.

    What I mostly do is use the top 3 or 4 strings, a slide the open D, A, E chords up and down, along with their minor version. When you get deep into chord theory you'll soon realize that you can "imply" a chord without using all the actual chord tones. That's when you get into 7's and 9's and various suspensions. It's a lot easier with a bass or another guitar player. But it's something you can do on your own
    Since I play a lot of classic rock, southern rock and blues I'm more inclined to use the bottom three strings, or the middle strings for rhythm and the top three for fills. I like to put some bottom end girth into things to make the band sound bigger. The top strings (for me - YMMV) compete with the vocals and I like to keep that area wide open. It also allows me to stack fifths for those songs like Bar Line 99 or When My Train Pulls In or some Police songs which aren't really major or minor in the classic sense. Since we have two guitars and keys we all have to work together to cover the ranges and not bury the vocals. We'll generally layer the guitars more to the one dirty, one clean side of things rather than filling up all way from the top to bottom. Works for us. Still in any band, it's all about listening and playing what the song needs - which is generally a lot less what than you want to play. :)

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    it's all about listening and playing what the song needs - which is generally a lot less what than you want to play. :)

    Chuck
    So freaking much this. It was and still is the hardest part of playing as far as I'm concerned. The tendency to overplay is a powerful urge and takes a LOT of discipline to kick back and lay off the throttle. The stuff I find the most pleasurable to listen to are the ones where there is space to appreciate what just occurred and anticipate what may come next. It boils down to the groove. Can't have a groove if it's totally filled in with a furious flurry of notes. Unless that's what the song needs, of course

  19. #19
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    You're right on OA! 👍 I don't have keys in my band, so I try to fill up that space. Most of the guys I play with are chugging along on barre or cowboy chords. So I try to play either on the top strings or further up the neck. I use a capo a lot too, and if they're banging away I'll just strum some whole notes or something. I've always loved the way The Stones (whoever is in it at the time) can stay out of each other's way.
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  20. #20
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: I want to improve my understanding and playing of inversions

    A good learning exercise is to listen to some local blues band butcher Mustang Sally, and then go listen to the original Wilson Pickett recording. If ever you needed a demonstration that "less is more" this would be it.

    I always chuckle when guitar players rant "I refuse to play Mustang Sally!" IMHO, any real guitar player who can find that funky groove that's there on the original and live there couldn't be stopped from playing it!!!! It's like liquid sex. With Foxy Cleopatra. Why/how would you not want to?

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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