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Thread: Enlighten Me, Please.

  1. #1
    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Enlighten Me, Please.

    When I decided to get into electric guitar playing for real, recently, I needed an amp. I live in a two bedroom condo, so my needs are modest (as much as I'd like to crank it up at times, doing so is problematic). I considered the Fender Champion 20, and was talked into getting the Champion 40. A good move on the part of the sales guy, I think.

    Fender and Marshall have always been the "gold standard" in amps, as far back as I can remember. So I was intrigued when I came across the Marshall Code 50, a 50w Modeling Guitar Amp with 12" Speaker, 14 Digital Preamp Models, and more.

    What can you pros tell me about "modeling' amps? Here's (I hope) a side-by-side comparison of the two:

    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/comp...0,Code50Combo)

    The Fender has a luscious mix of on-board effects and voicings. The Marshall seems to have more computer-type interfaces. The Marshall is $70 more than the Fender, but even at $250 is relatively cheap when compared to the likes of the '65 Twin Reverb (the must-have amp when I was a teenager).

    Is this too stupid a question? I'm hoping to learn more about what goes into playing electric once you plug a jack into the instrument...

  2. #2
    Forum Member redisburning's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    frankly, modelers and other solid state amps just don't work for me.

    they don't sound good, again to me, and they don't feel good. they just don't cross the sufficiency line IME. there's an additional challenge in that you put 250 into a modeller you'll never see again and if you go the same way I do it's just not a good use of funds. you already have an amp that's functional; no need to get something else that largely falls into that category IMO. if you want more sounds get a decent distortion pedal; my personal experience has been that a Fulltone OCD will walk all over modeler distortion.

    I'm stuck in an apartment right now and I play my 28 watt Carr without issue as my "practice amp". If I needed a bit quieter of an amp and didn't want to that much cash I'd go for a used Princeton Reverb or maybe a little silverface Champ.

    also I think the days of Fender and Marshall being the gold standard are long past. that belongs to the small builders now; the big bucks and long lists right now to go builders like Bludotone and Allesandro. not to mention the legion of guys like David Allen, George Metropoulos and Greg Germino doing copies of vintage amps.

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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    I picked up a Cube in a trade a while back, and I spent some time fooling with it. Yes, there are realistic amp sounds there, (at low volume, of course), but I don't need to be quiet where I live. My sister in law, however was intrigued with it, so I let her have it.

  4. #4
    Forum Member Volumeknob's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    I have owned
    at least a dozen different small watt SS amps--- Modeling amps---and tube amps--

    It depends on what you look to do.

    IMHO for modeling amps the Fender Mustang is very hard to beat----with built in and customizable models (and more through an online link) it offers the most versatility ----and DYNAMITE tone at low volumes. and can be VERY affordable new and more so used.
    http://shop.fender.com/en-US/amplifier-series/mustang/

    IF you would like the warm glow of a full on hand wired tube amp---- 5 watts (and a true attenuation feature) then you cant beat this

    https://reverb.com/item/2589246-pana...watt-combo-amp


    OR--- I have a very nice SS USA MADE Randall 15 watt combo with a 10 inch speaker ---I will sell you for the TFF discount......
    https://reverb.com/item/3169133-randall-rg-15-green

    The options for you are many.
    The VOX VT series are vary nice .....

    BUT all that said----my usual "go to" is the Mustang....its as versatile as my mood I can start out with mellow blues, turn one knob and i am doing MEtallica, turn again Neil Young.......again the beach boys...........and if you look you can score em on Craigslist for under 100.00!
    The only time you really live fully is from thirty to sixty. The young are slaves to dreams; the old servants of regrets. Only the middle-aged have all their five senses in the keeping of their wits.
    T. Roosevelt

  5. #5
    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volumeknob View Post
    IMHO for modeling amps the Fender Mustang is very hard to beat----with built in and customizable models (and more through an online link) it offers the most versatility ----and DYNAMITE tone at low volumes. and can be VERY affordable new and more so used.
    http://shop.fender.com/en-US/amplifier-series/mustang/
    ...
    BUT all that said----my usual "go to" is the Mustang....its as versatile as my mood I can start out with mellow blues, turn one knob and i am doing MEtallica, turn again Neil Young.......again the beach boys...........and if you look you can score em on Craigslist for under 100.00!
    Oh, man, now you've gone and thrown the proverbial turd in the punchbowl! :)

    It's hard to decipher some of the lingo used in specs (for me, at least).


    Champion 40 Code 50 Mustang II v.2
    Type Solid State Solid State w/ Digital modeling Solid State
    # Channels 2 1 1
    Total Power 40W 50W 40W
    Speaker Size 1x12" 1x12" 1x12"
    Effects Yes 24 (5 simultaneously) Yes
    Reverb Yes Yes Yes
    EQ 2-band 3-band EQ 2-band
    Amp Modeling Yes Yes
    Number of Models 14 preamps, 4 power amps, 8 speaker cabs 24 presets, 18 amp models
    Inputs 1x1/4", 1x1/8" 1x1/4", 1x1/8", Bluetooth 1x1/4", 1x1/8"
    Outputs 1x1/8" (phones) 1x1/4" (headphones) 1x1/8" (headphones)
    USB 1x USB Mini-B
    Footswitch I/O Yes 1x1/4" (optional PEDL-91009 sold separately) Yes
    Computer Connect USB, Bluetooth (iOS, Android control via Gateway App)
    Height 17.25" 17.3" 17.25"
    Width 17.25" 20.8" 18.25"
    Depth 9" 11" 8.7"
    Weight 19 lbs. 28.6 lbs. 24 lbs.

    Reading the specs on my Champion 40, I find it includes Reverb, Delay/Echo, Chorus, Tremolo, Vibratone, and more. Delay Time and Tremolo speed can be set with a TAP button on the front panel. Fender's site also states that the amp includes digital amplifier modeling encompassing a variety of amp types old and new, U.S. and U.K., and more. From classic Fender amp sounds to modern designs voiced for specific styles (i.e., metal).

    It seems the more I learn, the less I know.

  6. #6
    Forum Member Volumeknob's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    Check out the Mustang FUSE site with the downloadable tones........people are adding new ones daily the options and tonal varieties are ---well---endless.

    Your gonna need a bigger punch bowl because this is one HELL of a turd ;)
    https://fuse.fender.com/mustang/presets/

    AND I can say my "buy in" to this world of options.......was a mere 50.00 on a used mustang found on Craigslist.

    You can not beat it for the $ you just cant.
    The only time you really live fully is from thirty to sixty. The young are slaves to dreams; the old servants of regrets. Only the middle-aged have all their five senses in the keeping of their wits.
    T. Roosevelt

  7. #7
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    I have three friends who bring Mustangs to our weekly Friday work jams and they sound really good!

  8. #8
    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    Well, swayed by Volumeknob and confirmed by you others, I plunked down some cash today for a Mustang II v.2, footpedal (for my Champion) and amp cover. I'm justifying the purchase by convincing myself that I need an amp in my living room as well as my practice room.

    It's due to arrive Friday.

    Thanks to you folks, I avoided making what could have been a real mistake: buying an amp based on the Marshall name rather than on the capabilities that are more suited to my needs.

    I'm not a performing musician (yet -- I may wind up playing with the church band), so my needs are simple: something I can play in the confines of my small apartment condo that gives me a lot of experimenting ability without having the neighbors call the noise police. My wants, on the other hand...

  9. #9
    Forum Member Volumeknob's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    YOur going to love it.
    Just the main "built in" models (I think there are 3 banks of 8) will keep you grinning for a while---then ad in the effects.......and the never ending FUSE software options.......hours and hours and hours of fun

    and the II should be useable with a Church band/P.A. system certainly mic it up and ROCK !!...er or ROLL.....uhm....or SAVE A SOUL! yeah ;)

    Congrats cant wait to see what you think of it.
    The only time you really live fully is from thirty to sixty. The young are slaves to dreams; the old servants of regrets. Only the middle-aged have all their five senses in the keeping of their wits.
    T. Roosevelt

  10. #10
    Forum Member Volumeknob's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    SO____
    HOW is the MUSTANG working out fer ya????
    The only time you really live fully is from thirty to sixty. The young are slaves to dreams; the old servants of regrets. Only the middle-aged have all their five senses in the keeping of their wits.
    T. Roosevelt

  11. #11
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    Well, there are modelers... and then there are modelers.

    My experience may be different from others, but what i've found is that if you play with low-end gear like a PODxt or a BOSS unit, or inexpensive modeling amps you can get usable sounds and in fact, when properly applied they can be quite useful. Unfortunately, most modeling amps and effects units are way over the top. They over-effect and that leads to a lack of feel and ability to cut through a mix. But then again, IMHO, most guitar players - at least entry level ones, will do the same things with pedals and tube amp.

    The other issue I've seen is players who have a POD or similar unit but don't understand how to sound-reinforce it. PODs for example, can be quite useful in a recording situation but live you need to have the correct output device. You can go direct and monitors but that feels weird to me, I don't feel the stage mix properly when doing so.

    To remedy this, I use Line6 Power Engines as "amps" onstage. Basically, they're a "PA in a box" that you put on a chair or stand just as you would an amp.

    Now, high-end modelers - that's a whole 'nuther world.

    Over the decades i've been able to distill my gear down to two really great tube amps. A slightly modded DRRI and a hugely modded C30. Either one will do a great job, and in stereo they kick it over the top. But when there's no room for error, I run my rack system with the Fractal. It will on any given night equal my tube amps and on most nights surpass them. I love having the option to go Fender clean to Hiwatt, open to closed back, clean to drive, whatever the song needs. On any show we do I need to cover everything from Elvis to GnR to BlackEyed Peas. With a good modeler it's all there when you need it and it sounds great. Another big plus is I hear the FOH sound onstage - what I hear is what the audience is hearing.

    There is of course, a catch.

    If you take the price of the rack system, Power Engines and a couple of Heritage's, I usually bring about $10,000 USD worth of gear to a job where I'll make $25 USD/hour, not including travel and setup/teardown.

    Which just goes to show how stupid we guitar players can be.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volumeknob View Post
    SO____
    HOW is the MUSTANG working out fer ya????
    Holy Schnikes, I am SO behind the curve on modern instrumentation!

    So, the sales guy tells me the Mustang is "just like" the Champion, but more capable. Yeah, "just like" the Spirit of St. Louis is like a Jumbo Jet!

    I plugged in my Tele and played a bit. Then I plugged in a Strat and played some more. Then I plugged in my Taylor and... WTF???

    Then I pulled out the manual. For the second time, WTF?

    MASTER volume is the only knob you need to adjust at first. All other knob settings are programmed as part of each PRESET
    Okay... Presets...

    The RED and GREEN banks are for storing your own presets. The AMBER bank of presets can only be modified using Fender "FUSE" software at http://fuse.fender.com
    Let's see... there are 24 presets, eight of which can only be modified using Fender software. The other 16 can be modified manually?

    Because the setting of every knob on the Mustang amplifier (except MASTER) is programmed into each preset, all knobs are usually inactive, and therefore , knob positions will NOT show the actual knob setting stored internally.

    The moment you turn each knob it instantly becomes active and it will remain active until you select a different preset.
    Gee, my Champion 40 does none of this.

    As was explained to me, due to licensing and trademark issues, some of the models included have more "generic" names. The first eight (AMBER) presets correspond to


    • Metal 2000 (essentially a Mesa Boogie, or other high gain amp)
    • Super Sonic
    • Metal '90s
    • Brit '80s (similar to Marshall, Vox or Orange)
    • Brit '60s (ditto)
    • '65 Twin
    • '59 Bassman
    • '57 Deluxe


    Oh, but that's not all. There's also a MOD (modulation) knob and a DLY/REV (Delay/Reverb). Each knob has four selections (A, B, C, D) and three positions within each selection. The two knobs share three LEDs, and the knob turned most recently has control over the LEDs.

    I guess I could go on. Gone are the days when one jacked into an amp, hit the power, adjusted volume, bass, treble and (maybe) midrange. Add a wah-wah and a fuzz pedal, and you were good to go. I'm gonna have to study this thing before I understand it!

    But at least I can make it sound like a Twin Reverb. :)

  13. #13
    Forum Member Volumeknob's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    It does a very nice VOX tone ---- and the Orange amp models are great as well (wait till you plug up the FUSE software) and see all the options on your laptop screen ----

    I use the BB King tone download as my "base tone" on the Mustang.....but yes....it is versatile beyond imagine.
    The only time you really live fully is from thirty to sixty. The young are slaves to dreams; the old servants of regrets. Only the middle-aged have all their five senses in the keeping of their wits.
    T. Roosevelt

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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    Small or large tube amp +


    or

    And if it's not 8Ω

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    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    Update: I downloaded and installed the Fender FUSE software and connected my computer to the amp. Maybe it's because I'm a computer guy, but FUSE really helped me understand this Mustang II amp better. Why, just being able to visualize a pedal and the effect it produces has increased my knowledge by quite a measure.

    I spent some time with a Strat testing out some of the models. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me a lot of the models are designed to emulate "heavy" music. While it was a bit of fun trying out my "rock concert chops," I find that many of these voices don't lend themselves to my style of playing: I like clean tones, fancy rhythms, and the occasional "crunch" or "bite." Honestly, a lot of these models to me seem like they are intended for Richie Blackmore wannabees cranking out "Smoke on the Water." Power chords, okay, rapid chord changes like D7-F#7-G-Gmaj7-Em7-Fdim get real muddy, real quick. Even a nice (to me) 12-bar blues progression goes in like goose food and comes out like goose poop with some. I guess I just like more than three-chord slam-your-brain-into-a-wall music.

    FUSE lets me make settings changes that I can understand, rather than learn by dial twiddling. Some of the built-ins are (to me) at least the basis for a sound I would like to play, and the visible representation of the amp in use is helpful, too (only Fender amps are shown by name, of course, due to licensing issues, but there's no mistaking a Marshall grill, or a VOX face). I suspect I'll start narrowing down the models I use as I learn more about them.

    There is certainly room in my life -- if not necessarily in my home -- for two amps. Plugging into my Champion (which is, in fact, a modeling amp, too) lets me get down to focusing on practice when that's what I want. For now, the Mustang will be more for experimentation than dedicated practice.

  16. #16
    Forum Member Volumeknob's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    I told you it had lots of "stuff" try downloading some cleaner models from other members of the FUSE forum.
    With a little fiddling around and all you can create very nice clean tones in any setting

    I find the Fender models to be the most accurate --though the VOX one is very very good IMHO
    The only time you really live fully is from thirty to sixty. The young are slaves to dreams; the old servants of regrets. Only the middle-aged have all their five senses in the keeping of their wits.
    T. Roosevelt

  17. #17
    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volumeknob View Post
    I told you it had lots of "stuff" try downloading some cleaner models from other members of the FUSE forum.
    With a little fiddling around and all you can create very nice clean tones in any setting

    I find the Fender models to be the most accurate --though the VOX one is very very good IMHO
    Indeed. I've already been searching the FUSE forum and have downloaded a couple of presets. There's a saying, "give time time." All I need is time to better understand this amp and its capabilities.

    I feel like someone who's been used to driving a Model T and has just been put behind the wheel of a Tesla.

  18. #18
    Forum Member Volumeknob's Avatar
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    Re: Enlighten Me, Please.

    WE REALLY NEED A LIKE BUTTON!
    The only time you really live fully is from thirty to sixty. The young are slaves to dreams; the old servants of regrets. Only the middle-aged have all their five senses in the keeping of their wits.
    T. Roosevelt

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