Thoughts on this '59 Stratocaster?

[solsurfr]

I'm weary of eBay when it comes to vintage gear but have been lucky a few times. Seller posted a ton of pics and was pretty detailed but I don't have an eye for the wrong stuff. Any thoughts on originality or price?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[Leseattlepaul]

Hi Solsurfr, The neck plate SN# falls in the 1960 cat. 30,000 to 40,000 = 1959 40,000 to 58,000 = 1960 Early 1959 Strat necks would have no pencil date on truss rod heel, written pencil dates started showing up in mid 1959. Rosewood finger boards started in mid 1959. The body date is 12/59. Headstock logo looks correct with pointed e's and bold trem font. Just my thoughts on the neck. Nice looking guitar!

[solsurfr]

Hi Solsurfr, The neck plate SN# falls in the 1960 cat. 30,000 to 40,000 = 1959 40,000 to 58,000 = 1960 Early 1959 Strat necks would have no pencil date on truss rod heel, written pencil dates started showing up in mid 1959. Rosewood finger boards started in mid 1959. The body date is 12/59. Headstock logo looks correct with pointed e's and bold trem font. Just my thoughts on the neck. Nice looking guitar!

Thanks! So are you saying that this could be a '60 strat with a leftover '59 neck and body? Just trying to understand Otherwise, you feel that this is what the seller says it is? I don't know anything about Portland Music by the way.

[Leseattlepaul]

Thanks! So are you saying that this could be a '60 strat with a leftover '59 neck and body? Just trying to understand Otherwise, you feel that this is what the seller says it is? I don't know anything about Portland Music by the way.

Its a 1959 Strat with a higher number neck plate, it matches the 12/59 body see pic. I have never delt with Portland Music. I first saw one of their auctions on Ebay about year and half ago. I would give them a call if it was me.The 11 hole 3ply pick guard matches the late 59 body wiring and cap look good also......

[phantomman]

I'd concur with Leseattlepaul -- the photos seem consistent with the guitar's description. Whether it's worth the seller's asking price, only you and your conscience can decide.

Best of luck, HTH

[Marcondo]

He says its a partial refinish.

That would be a deal killer for me at that price.

Some of the parts just look too new. He also says original tuners back on which means its been messed with.

If Im buying a vintage guitar I want it to be all original except the strings.

Its always funny to me to say 100% original except. Well then why even say its 100% original when its not except should never follow 100% original its either 100% original or its not.

[solsurfr]

He says its a partial refinish.

That would be a deal killer for me at that price.

Some of the parts just look too new. He also says original tuners back on which means its been messed with.

If Im buying a vintage guitar I want it to be all original except the strings.

Its always funny to me to say 100% original except. Well then why even say its 100% original when its not except should never follow 100% original its either 100% original or its not.

100% original '59 rosewood strat would probably be in the upper 20's if not low 30's (or more!) I would guess which would basically kick me to the curb as a seller. However a partial refin and/or refret may get me in the ballgame from a price-point perspective... then again, I've been out of the vintage strat watch for some time so all your opinions are very helpful!

Thanks for the feedback

[solsurfr]

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I'd concur with Leseattlepaul -- the photos seem consistent with the guitar's description. Whether it's worth the seller's asking price, only you and your conscience can decide.

Best of luck, HTH

Thanks.... my conscience will feel better if I have a decent understanding of what these strats are selling for these days which isn't widely publicized. When i first was looking around a few years back... 100% original rosewood '59's were as high as the low $40K's... dead mint '59's were way above that... so for me, and in this economy, I'm wondering what a more players-grade/refin/refret 59.... would be selling for these days...

This site has some interesting findings also:

http://www.finestguitar.com/?tag=fender-stratocaster

[Erock_Germany]

No neck date penciled in or at least partially visible? That puts it down the totem pole a bit and would take it off my list.....

Serial number puts is kind of late in the first half of 1960 or so......

Everything else points to a 1960 model definitely but things were a bit hectic around the factory in those days so it could be earlier but with the body date it would be consistent.....Fender usually closed over Christmas and intor the first week of the New Year AFAIK.....

The neck date thing would be my decision not to bid though.....

[hippiebob01]

I read somewhere that aroudn this time period, Fender was phasing out penciled dates and moving to stamped dates because of an employee writing profanity on the heels.

[Totally bored]

I read somewhere that aroudn this time period, Fender was phasing out penciled dates and moving to stamped dates because of an employee writing profanity on the heels.

I'd be looking for the "profanity on the heels" models if I had the $ but thats just how I roll I quess.


Just sayin

[Wilko]

That guitar looks pretty right to me. Probably left the factory in January 60. It could be called a 59, but I'd call it a 60 because of the very late body date and the features. If it had any "59 features--single play, more red, maple neck, etc. I'd want to call it a 59). Looks like it had a tuner swap, then original type replaced. There a second string tree added and removed.

The serial is totally right for that period. My 5/60 has serial 50609.

No neck date is also right for late 59-60 guitars so that's no issue at all, and being blank, I trust it more than seeing some messy pencil date (specially because fakes often are dated into that period that had no dates).

Prices on almost everything is down these days, so t hat price is not out of line, just might be a tad high. I'm sure real money and a good conversation could get a nice price on that guitar.

[solsurfr]

That guitar looks pretty right to me. Probably left the factory in January 60. It could be called a 59, but I'd call it a 60 because of the very late body date and the features. If it had any "59 features--single play, more red, maple neck, etc. I'd want to call it a 59). Looks like it had a tuner swap, then original type replaced. There a second string tree added and removed.

The serial is totally right for that period. My 5/60 has serial 50609.

No neck date is also right for late 59-60 guitars so that's no issue at all, and being blank, I trust it more than seeing some messy pencil date (specially because fakes often are dated into that period that had no dates).

Prices on almost everything is down these days, so t hat price is not out of line, just might be a tad high. I'm sure real money and a good conversation could get a nice price on that guitar.

Thanks for the feedback. I've been trying to keep a pulse on the '59's over the past 4-5 years and the allure of the first year of brazilian rosewood and 1959 being just a great year for guitars (at least for me on the Les Paul side) has gotten me itching for one but they've always been so high-priced that I was just dreaming.

I've read blank heels is a trait of the '59's which doesn't scare me too much. The 12/59 body seems right and I thought the 3-ply green guard is also right but you mentioned single-ply and maple neck which I know was the norm for the early/mid 59's, no?

[Wilko]

Yeah, single ply and maple ended in '59, so '59 could be many things. '60s are pretty much all the same. That's what I'm getting at. The one you're looking at is right on the cusp date-wise. IT was pencil dated in December before it was painted and assembled. Did we get pot dates?

60s do have a few other things like the serial being at the "bottom" of the plate.

[rudutch]

I won't be bidding against you

[solsurfr]

I won't be bidding against you

ok thanks for the heads up.

[Wilko]

I like it.

Make an offer of 15k and it's likely yours.

[Leseattlepaul]

I will second Wilco I thought about that guitar several times today Very nice looking 59

[Leseattlepaul]

Its a 1959 Strat with a higher number neck plate, it matches the 12/59 body see pic. I have never delt with Portland Music. I first saw one of their auctions on Ebay about year and half ago. I would give them a call if it was me.The 11 hole 3ply pick guard matches the late 59 body wiring and cap look good also......

Hi Solsurfr, FYI Marks guitar Loft list a sold 59 that has a 12/59 body with a neck plate number of 47738 which is consistent with this guitar. There is some nice pics of the guitar under his electrics for sale.

[Wilko]

And it was listed much higher than this one (we don't know the actual selling price, but can safely assume it was higher than this auction BIN)

Here's my 50609:

[phantomman]

Dammit Rick, stop that!

Every time you post that pic I soil another pair of drawers. I may hafta switch to Depends whenever I log in here.

[Cogs]

Oops- extra string tree! See the plugged hole? I hate that

[Leseattlepaul]

And it was listed much higher than this one (we don't know the actual selling price, but can safely assume it was higher than this auction BIN)

Here's my 50609:

That's Fender Poster Material Wilco Amazing Strat

[Totally bored]

Like OMG and Totally.

FWIW, I don't get bored looking at that guitar.

[Wilko]

I need to take some more pics of that guitar. I just keep posting this one 'cause it's already uploaded and it's quick to link to.
I've played the crap out of this guitar since this pic was taken. I've added a bunch of button rash (from this type of shirt) near the bridge and the arm wear edge has chipped a lot more. I don't baby it at all. It gets played like a regular guitar.

[Wilko]

Sorry for a derail. I just love the 59-61 best. I love the slab boards and the way the sunburst ages.

[solsurfr]

Hi Solsurfr, FYI Marks guitar Loft list a sold 59 that has a 12/59 body with a neck plate number of 47738 which is consistent with this guitar. There is some nice pics of the guitar under his electrics for sale.

Saw the one at Marks... beautiful and all original. Price seemed about right as well.

[solsurfr]

Oops- extra string tree! See the plugged hole? I hate that

Saw that too... a bit of an eye sore, yes.

[DanD]

...
I've played the crap out of this guitar since this pic was taken. I've added a bunch of button rash (from this type of shirt) near the bridge and the arm wear edge has chipped a lot more. I don't baby it at all. It gets played like a regular guitar.

Right on Wilko!

Whenever I see an old guitar with no play wear I always think there must be some issue with it.

I know there are some really nice ones out there, but it just seems like such a waste not to use them as Leo intended.

[Erock_Germany]

I read somewhere that aroudn this time period, Fender was phasing out penciled dates and moving to stamped dates because of an employee writing profanity on the heels.

I read that too but I think this is a bit early for that issue..... Stamped neck dates started in March 1962...

[Erock_Germany]

No neck date is also right for late 59-60 guitars so that's no issue at all, and being blank, I trust it more than seeing some messy pencil date (specially because fakes often are dated into that period that had no dates).

Hmmmm. Never knew that. All I have seen from that date had them and I was once told by a very well known collector in the scene that it was part of the quality assurance process after the neck was checked and found OK, it was dated.....

New infos all the time.

I agree. All other features add up to an early 1960.....

[Wilko]

My personal 1960 has no pencil date.

Books on the subject agree.

[Leseattlepaul]

For your viewing pleasure hey just sit back and enjoy the show.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23PFF3E58wE

[solsurfr]

For your viewing pleasure hey just sit back and enjoy the show.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23PFF3E58wE

Great video... a tribute to generations of the past who saw the magic before anyone else...

[solsurfr]

My personal 1960 has no pencil date.

Books on the subject agree.

Here's what I've learned from this thread:

- A body stamp from 1959 doesn't confirm a strat to be "From" 1959
- Un-stamped slab necks do not necessarily confirm 1959 even if the body stamp says XX/59
- Pot dates, although from 1959, also do not confirm the strat to be from 1959
- Serial number > 40000 are more likely to be strats that were released in 1960 even though they may have been built in 1959.

How far close or off am I with this newbie summary?

Thanks!

[Wilko]

interesting way of looking at it.

1. Bodies aren't stamped. They get a penciled mo./yr. / Being a 12/59 means it's pretty darn close to the end of the year. There is a long holiday break and the body still needs painting, drying and buffing, then assembly. I doubt it left the factory in '59.

2. Necks were pencil dated before and after 59-60 period. Stamping was later. a blank neck means late '59 or most of 1960.

3. Pot dates only show the earliest possible build time. Pot date, then wait for packaging, shipping to Fender, sit in box 'til put in a guitar. Usually a guitar is dated about 2 months or more AFTER the pot date.

4. Late 40000 numbers are easily 1959 and run into about April of 60.

[solsurfr]

interesting way of looking at it.

1. Bodies aren't stamped. They get a penciled mo./yr. / Being a 12/59 means it's pretty darn close to the end of the year. There is a long holiday break and the body still needs painting, drying and buffing, then assembly. I doubt it left the factory in '59.

2. Necks were pencil dated before and after 59-60 period. Stamping was later. a blank neck means late '59 or most of 1960.

3. Pot dates only show the earliest possible build time. Pot date, then wait for packaging, shipping to Fender, sit in box 'til put in a guitar. Usually a guitar is dated about 2 months or more AFTER the pot date.

4. Late 40000 numbers are easily 1959 and run into about April of 60.

I confused the word "stamp" and "penciled-in". I meant "dated" regardless of stamp or pencil designation... sorry.

There are a couple of views in this thread regarding the guitar in question of whether it's a '59 or '60. I'm really hoping to get a '59 and if all signs are pointing to a '60, I will pass on it. However, if it is more "likely" a '59, then I would consider this one, in it's condition and price, a real possibility for someone who wants a players-grade '59 as I'll never (unless I hit the lottery) be in the market for a dead-mint, all original '59.

I can see why it could be either year because of the late pencil date and serial number. As a knee-jerk reaction, a body date of 12/59, '59 pot dates, and no neck date, my newbie eyes would think this is a '59.

Some of you think there are features specific to 1960 on this guitar so I'd like to know what those are as well as I thought both late '59's and early '60's were nearly identical?

[Cogs]

I would just consider it a '59 & call it good. As far as I can tell there are no features specific to '60 that weren't also found on more than a few '59s. These things overlapped a lot, & '59 being a transitional year makes it a little foggier that it would be than if it were a '61 or '63.
Is the body dated '59? Then it's a '59. Case closed.

[Wilko]

Yep. Certainly close enough.

If the serial were on the bottom of the plate I'd say 60.

That guitar is a 1959 Fender Stratocaster.

November pots, Dec body. cuttin' it close.

[solsurfr]

What do you guys think of that elbow wear? I can't help but think of the Fender Custom Shop when I see elbow wear like that... call me paranoid, I guess :)