I need more headroom. MORE headroom?? Yes, MORE HEADROOM.

[boobtube21]

Well, I dragged the Twin and the pedal steel down to San Diego for a little jam with a "cowpunk" type band I'm playing with down there. Next time I'll give myself 2 hours for that drive instead of only one, sheesh...LA traffic is a walk in the park compared to SD.

Anyways, I was surprised to find that the Twin, a UL 135 watter, could not keep up with the rest of the band volume-wise. Granted, I didn't want to turn the preamp volume up higher than 5 or 6, but the master was on 10 and I could barely hear myself. What I could hear was definitely distorted. And I was parked right in front of the thing! (yes, I was wearing earplugs! lol). Keep in mind though, the pickup in a pedal steel is pretty hot, and hits the preamp a little harder than even a Les Paul I'm pretty sure.

So, as crazy as it sounds, I guess I need more headroom. How can I best go about this, bang-for-the-buck-wise? Bias rewire? Lose the Master Volume or Boost? Or just more effecient speakers? I'd like to get as much extra headroom as possible.

Thanks guys.

[JJ Gross]

JBLs.

In a ULSF135wTR (how's that for an acronym?), JBLs will be ultimately clean unless there's something drastically wrong with your amp. You don't need to shell out $250 each for 120s either. Look on fleabay for the ones with the big gray magnets almost as big as the cones labeled both Fender and JBL. You can probably find these for about $200/pair and they are VERY LOUD speakers and clean as a whistle to boot.

I ditched my ULSF135wJBLTR because of it's heft, not it's sound. I loved the sound but geeze - 112# for a 'portable combo'? ... Seriously ... geeze!

BTW, nice sig.

"HEY! What's your favorite planet? Mine's the sun. It's like the KING of planets!".
;D

[phantomman]

I ditched my ULSF135wJBLTR because of it's heft, not it's sound. I loved the sound but geeze - 112# for a 'portable combo'? ... Seriously ... geeze!

Be thankful it wasn't a Quad Reverb!

[stratcat55]

Be thankful it wasn't a Quad Reverb!

Or the Super Six.

[Kap'n]

Maybe you'd do better transplanting that twin chassis into a DSR cab, and adding a nice 15" tone ring bottom?

Vince, I'm sure, has tested that combination. Maybe he could tell you more.

[boobtube21]

Kap'n, I thought about the 15" speaker thing too. I was looking at these last night, and thinking I could do what I suggested to Ben Amos in another thread and put the chassis in a seperate head box, then use these as the drivers. The EV speakers in them are recommended for pedal steel by some folks on the steel guitar forum. I didn't think about the tone ring though, that might be an idea. m

JJGross, I'll look into those JBL's, I think they're supposed to be great speakers for steel as well.

So doing things like removing the master volume, boost, etc., those aren't going to change the headroom any? I wouldn't think they would, but my tech recommended those mods when I asked him about headroom. I just don't see how they would help.

[chuckocaster]

i think soming is bunk with your amp, i had one and could never turn it up past 4 without it being ULTRALOUD, i thought that's what the UL designation was for. LOL. seriously, i played it once the way you described and i couldn't hear so well for about 2 days.

[Wilko]

not loud enough?

Who are you plaing with down here? Do I want to come check youz guys out?

[juniorspecial]

Maybe what you really need is for the rest of the band to turn down?

Because if you can't hear a Twin, the audience probably has blood shooting out of their eyes!

[phantomman]

Was this an outdoor or indoor venue, JP?

[JJ Gross]

IIRC, as long as you don't pull out the master volume boost, it's not even in the circuit. Removing it seems like a lot of work altering an old amp for no real benefit.

Good luck

[boobtube21]

Wilko, we're (they're) not gigging yet...just a practice, and technically I'm not a member of the band, just a hired gun for pedal steel. It was in a room about 15x12 ft, and as I said I was right in front of the thing.

Make no mistake, these guys are F'N LOUD. The kind of band where the drums are getting slightly drowned out. But I was wearing earplugs, and they worked great. Next time I will ask that they turn down just a tad, but the amp definitely has a problem. I cranked it up today on my lunch break, turned it up to 10 on both volumes, and wasn't impressed. It was about as loud as the 60w solid state half stack I used to have. Loud enough to make me walk into the other room to play, but really not that loud. I expected window shattering for the hype I hear about these things.

Could low bias have something to do with it? My Vibrolux seemed to get a little louder after the bias rewire, but that could have been my imagination.

[NTBluesGuitar]

Why search for MORE headroom, when you really need MAX HEADROOM!



Sorry....couldn't resist.

[chuckocaster]

It was about as loud as the 60w solid state half stack I used to have.

i think there's something wrong inside. my 135 UL was unbelievably loud.

[ziess]

Yeah, there's gotta be something wrong with that. I had one that was crazy loud at about 3.

Tommy.

[phantomman]

i think there's something wrong inside. my 135 UL was unbelievably loud.

Twew dat. I have the very same amp (with factory JBLs) an' that sumbitch will shake the fillin's right outta yer teeth at anythang above "5". Prolly time for some "outpatient care" from a tech that you trust.

[boobtube21]

The thing is, it just came back from the tech a month or so ago. It wasn't working at all before, when I got it back it seemed perfect until I needed volume. I guess I should take it back, but I'm going to try the normal channel tomorrow first and see if that's any louder.

Then I'll try a side-by-side with the Vibrolux. I don't think there's going to be much of a volume difference, and if there isn't there's definitely a problem.

[boobtube21]

Well, there's a big volume difference. The Twin is definitely loud as hell. Feels like it's almost twice as loud, which seems about right. Granted an amp's only supposed to be twice as loud with 10x the wattage, but it feels twice as loud anyway.

I guess I either need a different amp or new, more effecient speakers.

You know what though? Even with my LP plugged in, it starts getting gritty around 4 or so on the preamp volume (w/ master on 10). That doesn't seem right when some folks claim they've never gotten theirs to even break up at all at a reasonable volume.

I'm going to open it up and see if the resistor values at the PI are correct for SF. In the meanwhile maybe go to GC and try one of their BF's, see if that seems any louder/cleaner.

Thanks for the help everyone.

[boobtube21]

Ok, I found at least part of my problem...

I pulled one of the speakers, and there's a GOOD deal of voice coil rub. So I put in my Weber Alnico Blue Dog, and got a huge increase in volume and headroom both. That's with the LP, haven't tried the steel yet, but it's bound to be a lot better. The sound with the Blue Dog is pretty cool too, maybe I'll replace the stock drivers with a set of ceramic 75 watters.

I would leave the Blue Dog that I have in there for now, but it's only 50w so I don't want to blow it. I'm saving that one for a future amp.

Crisis averted!

[phantomman]

Ok, I found at least part of my problem...

I pulled one of the speakers, and there's a GOOD deal of voice coil rub. So I put in my Weber Alnico Blue Dog, and got a huge increase in volume and headroom both. That's with the LP, haven't tried the steel yet, but it's bound to be a lot better. The sound with the Blue Dog is pretty cool too, maybe I'll replace the stock drivers with a set of ceramic 75 watters.

I would leave the Blue Dog that I have in there for now, but it's only 50w so I don't want to blow it. I'm saving that one for a future amp.

Crisis averted!

I'm glad you found something definitive, BT.

Yeah, I would give a pair of 75-watt Webers a try. Or some Eminence Ragin' Cajins.

While you have the chassis un-assed from the cab, why not check your power tubes an' bias while you're at it?

Best of luck!

[ziess]

You're playing steel, right?

https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/cali12f.htm

[chuckocaster]

i had those exact speakers in my UL zeiss. seriously, you want headroom. those speakers are headroom in a can!

[ziess]

I wonder if maybe a bass cone would work well for the clear low end of steel...
I'd email Ted Weber and ask him.

[boobtube21]

Thanks for the tip Tommy, I'll look into those. I think a couple people on the steel guitar forum mentioned them as well. Don't know if anyone mentioned the bass cone vs. guitar cone though.

[CJ Neel]

You want Eminence Swamp Thangs. Seriously.

[rudutch]

I had a twin re-issue for a month, turn it all the way up it was loud enough to be painful, literally.. it would cause pain in your ears

[goofballone]

Why search for MORE headroom, when you really need MAX HEADROOM!



Sorry....couldn't resist.

Damn...Damn...Damn!! To Slow

[JJ Gross]

When I first got my 135w TR I figured I'd see just what all the volume talk was about. I turned it up to about 8 and hit an open E chord on the Strat in my carpeted living room. It friggin HURT it was so loud. Not just my ears but half my body. I was 6 feet away from it and it felt like I got kicked in the chest. My dogs were in the back yard and they both started barking.

If you're not getting that kind of stupid loud from this thing cranked up, there's something wrong with the amp ... no doubt about it.

Cheers,
- JJ

[NTBluesGuitar]

Damn...Damn...Damn!! To Slow

I'm surprised I got to that one first, honestly.

You want Eminence Swamp Thangs. Seriously.

+1

...well +2 in your case, since it's a Twin.

[phantomman]

...well +2 in your case, since it's a Twin.

Well if'n anybody is feelin' heroic......

http://cgi.ebay.com/70s-Fender-Quad-...QQcmdZViewItem

A deal that nobody with a mere Twin Reverb can refuse!

With a quartet of Swamp Thangs you could (dare I say it?) rule the world.

[sabby]

I was looking at these last night. ... The EV speakers in them are recommended for pedal steel by some folks on the steel guitar forum. ...

Those are great speakers for any clean playing.

[Wilko]

I have an EVM12L that I bough new when it first came out. It can only handle 200 watts, the newer ones are 300-400.

It has done duty in a polytone minibrute, my SF twin, and now resides in a PA cabinet.

If headroom is what you need, an EVM is what you want.

[ES350]

EVM, Altec, Gauss, etc...and you could sub a pair of KT88 for the 4x6L6's...but it really sounds like those guys are too loud...this wouldn't have anything to do with Dave Gonzales, would it?

[boobtube21]

Thanks for the speaker suggestions guys.

I'm thinking I should be trying to get a little closer to 150w or so for TOTAL power handling though, no? I know it takes a little more oomph to move a big powerful speaker with a big magnet, and I don't want the tubes to start overdriving before I get to volume. How much overall volume are these 150w Swamp Things going to cost me?

I jammed with some other guys in Costa Mesa last night, no drummer, but it was turned up a little and no distortion in sight.

Whatever I buy, I'm definitely going to build something like this:



Last night was the last time I ever want to have to lift that thing as one piece! It's too damn heavy for my skinny ass.

[chuckocaster]

shit man, i have a 2x12 and 2x15 cab sitting out in the garage. the BIG silverface uncle ted full bluntal nugety cabs... you want em? they're yours. just come get em.

[boobtube21]

Really? Email me your address dude. You're in California, right?

[chuckocaster]

edited to add: email me, yours doesn't show up in your profile. by the by, i'll be down south in about a month or so. the 2x12 doesn't have any speakers, the 2x15 has ruby's. they are pretty nice. the 2x12 is a drip edge, 68. the other is a mid 70s?

[boobtube21]

Oh my lord those things are huge. OK, you will have mail shortly.

[BoB/335]

EVM 12L's

[CJ Neel]

I guy I know, (Chris Lawrence who plays with Mike Ness) uses a Musicman HD-150 Reverb head and a 2 x12 closed back cab for Pedal Steel. Loud and clean is what it is.