If ever I needed help, I do now! ASH??

[jerryjg]

Still trying to find out why in the world My 50's Strat Clone Ash Strat is stupid bright. Its got all the best Pickups and pots, wiring and a good thick slab Warmoth Rosewood board. I had assumed this guitar was Southern Swamp Ash, because it weiged in soo light at about four pounds. Its a Warmoth 1 piece body.
Its been brought to my attention by someone that it may well be "Northern baseball bat Hard Ash", which is extremly "pingy"(his words) compared t the 'Southern Swamp Ash', which is also bright like hard Ash ,yet warm. That would go a long way to explaining why I cannot get a 50's vibe from this guitar.
According to the person who has advised me about the guitar, it does look more to him, based on the photo i am submitting, like Northern Hard Ash than Southern Swamp Ash.
Would you all please take a look and tell me waht you think?(by the way,the other Strat I asked about turned out to be 100% certain Walnut!).Thank youvery much!!

[phantomman]

Lord knows, I ain't no egg-spurt when it comes to lumber but -- to me -- that grain simply does not look like what I commonly think of when "swamp ash" is mentioned. I dunno what to tell you, Jerry. The guitar has the best of everythang......it oughta flat-out sing.

I'd be the last one to recommend any "artificial" mods (like changing tone caps, bass plates on all three pickups, etc) in order to give the guitar some grunt, but it might come to that. Mebbe we got us a tree-surgeon here who could weigh in on this. It's an enigma fer shure.

[Cogs]

It looks like '70s Fender Boat-Anchor Ash to me. Contact Tommy Rosemond at USACG for the good stuff. Very pretty '50s looking grain on his Swamp Ash. Sounds '50s, too.

[phantomman]

It looks like '70s Fender Boat-Anchor Ash to me.

Precisely my thoughts, General......(Group Captain Lionel Mandrake)

"But the thing about is, they make such bloody good cameras!"

[sliding-tom]

It looks like '70s Fender Boat-Anchor Ash to me. Contact Tommy Rosemond at USACG for the good stuff. Very pretty '50s looking grain on his Swamp Ash. Sounds '50s, too.

Yes, Sir - looks exactly like a '78 ash body Strat I used to have that was heavy and trebly for sure.

[FrankJohnson]

which Pots are you using in it? are they 500 or 250 K?

[Joobsauce]

I say you get a chambered mahogany body and call it something like.... oh I don't know.... Zencaster?

haha! J/k But Mahogany would nicely dim your high end and add some grunt, but it WILL be heavy.

[jerryjg]

I'm going to dismantle it and weigh it. It may give a good indication,as Northern Hard Ash bodies are generally over 5 lbs. and Southern Swamp Ash tends to be sometimes at least 1/2 lb. and even more significantly lighter than Hard Ash.
If I recall it is a light body,however i forgot to write down how much it weighs.I may have it posted somewhere from when I first bought it, so I'll check before I tear it down.
I went to the Warmoth site and looked at pics.of both types of Ash and really couldnt pinpoint enough differences between the two to say for certain.At this point I'm going too defer to the comments Ive already recieved and assume it is a hard ash body.
Heres a few more picturesfroma previous post;
[IMG] [/IMG]
E

[Guitar_Mc]

...Its got all the best Pickups and pots, wiring...

So what exactly does that mean?

If you want to know why your guitar is too bright, and how to adjust it so it is less bright, why don't you tell us...

1. what pickups you have
2. what value pots you have
3. what wiring scheme you have (bright caps, 50s wiring etc).

Its gonna help you more than tearing the thing apart and sticking a chunk of wood on your bathroom scale again.

[FrankJohnson]

A couple of easy experiments you could do to narrow down the culprit in this uinwanted sound......

Use a differnt loaded pickguard in its entirety - see if the components make a difference.....

Try this set of electronics in another strat -


you might find that these pups/guts work better in another instrument. You may find others that work well in it. You might find a flaw in the wiring or values in the cap or pots are not what they should have been.

[jerryjg]

yeah. I use standard Strat value Pots ; CTS 250K . Its cloth wired, and has a Botique tone cap( Hoviland I think, I do not know the value right now). I said "best" pickups, not meaning they are the best in the world, but "best quality" which would fit the description of the Duncan Antiquities neck,Duncan SSL-1 middle, and Duncan APS-1 alnico II bridge all wired in std. Fender American style. All these pickups are vintage output. Tremolo is Vintage Std.American Fender issue.Its set up tight, to do small vibrato bends, not to dive bomb or anything.
Ive tried attenuating the tone control knobs, but the sound just gets muddy.Could be the amps I have as well.Sunn, Traynor and Marshall JMPMKII through Vintage Marshall cabs. Again, when i go to turn the treble down the sound gets veiled.
Anyhow, the body will be autopsied and disposed of.
Ive got a Fendr JV body that I'll try putting the Warmoth Rosewood neck on and see how that goes.
By the way, I am just looking for that sweet not spikey or icepicky sound when the amp is loud, very loud. Thats when it gets unbearably bright.Thats also something I should have mentioned. How do guys get a smooth tone with soft highs at concert level volumes?
I dont know how loud the El Dorado stuff is played live, but if it was at the volumes I want with this particular guitar ( and my amps). noone could stand it.
I need to do a bit more research. Could be any guitAr in the world would be bright with my amps set at such high volume , plus i'm right in front of them. Thats the kind of thing-the spikey treble- that ruins your ears , not so much the bass & mids I think.
I know about the trick of putting in 500K pots, but have heard that that is only about like castrating your pickups. Still, it is a possibility I supppose.
Anyway , thanks for all your help. Much obliged.When i think of some of the guitars you guys own and then to still be willing to help with my piddly little homebuilt is awesome!

[ziess]

How high were the pickups set, what gauge of strings were you using and what kind of amps/setting were you playing with?

Tommy.

[sting7777]

yeah. I use standard Strat value Pots ; CTS 250K . Its cloth wired, and has a Botique tone cap( Hoviland I think, I do not know the value right now). I said "best" pickups, not meaning they are the best in the world, but "best quality" which would fit the description of the Duncan Antiquities neck,Duncan SSL-1 middle, and Duncan APS-1 alnico II bridge all wired in std. Fender American style. All these pickups are vintage output. Tremolo is Vintage Std.American Fender issue.Its set up tight, to do small vibrato bends, not to dive bomb or anything.
Ive tried attenuating the tone control knobs, but the sound just gets muddy.Could be the amps I have as well.Sunn, Traynor and Marshall JMPMKII through Vintage Marshall cabs. Again, when i go to turn the treble down the sound gets veiled.
Anyhow, the body will be autopsied and disposed of.
Ive got a Fendr JV body that I'll try putting the Warmoth Rosewood neck on and see how that goes.
By the way, I am just looking for that sweet not spikey or icepicky sound when the amp is loud, very loud. Thats when it gets unbearably bright.Thats also something I should have mentioned. How do guys get a smooth tone with soft highs at concert level volumes?
I dont know how loud the El Dorado stuff is played live, but if it was at the volumes I want with this particular guitar ( and my amps). noone could stand it.
I need to do a bit more research. Could be any guitAr in the world would be bright with my amps set at such high volume , plus i'm right in front of them. Thats the kind of thing-the spikey treble- that ruins your ears , not so much the bass & mids I think.
I know about the trick of putting in 500K pots, but have heard that that is only about like castrating your pickups. Still, it is a possibility I supppose.
Anyway , thanks for all your help. Much obliged.When i think of some of the guitars you guys own and then to still be willing to help with my piddly little homebuilt is awesome!

500K tone pot is just going to sound more bright so don't go there.

I think you need to have someone check out the set up of the guitar and take a look at it first hand and A/B it with some different amps/guitars for you to figure out what you don't like. Where in the US are you? I would be happy to have a look and make some suggestions. If you are just going to abandon the body - let me know...

One suggestion off the top of my head for a Fender "50's" sound is maybe some Fat 50's or 57/62 pickups that are more vintage and chimey. I don't know anything about those Duncans.

Also - looks like Swamp Ash to me.

[Cogs]

Its cloth wired, and has a Botique tone cap( Hoviland I think, I do not know the value right now).

There's your problem. You need a boutique capacitor, not a botique one.

[delae30]

Well if you think its the amp's and not the guitar why not turn the treble down and reduce the tone on your guitar till you find a nice playable level. If you find that results with a flat sound on the clean channel then crank the tone pot.

I don't know what kind of Marshall you are playing but my buddies DSL-401 does not get really bright when it is cranked....

Does the guitar sound "ridiculously" bright in all positions? My bridge pickup can get obscenely bright but it has a TBX pot which boosts the treble to un-usable levels. If you just have standard pots, why not just turn them down?

[FrankJohnson]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fezz parka
And...I have always found that when a guitar is a touch too bright, I use these things called tone knobs, on both the amp and the guitar.

Uhhh....
__________________
What is a curmudgeon?

Uhhh....

I think they got it the first time Fezz........but thanks just in case........

[FrankJohnson]

helpy Helperton - glad to help!

FWIW - I have a bass that seems to gleen highs, and is too bright for my tastes......I am tryign a couple of different amp settings, and strings, before delving into re-building it.

Have you tried it in a live setting, or thgouth another rig, or even let someone else play it to sit back and see what happens?

[Offshore Angler]

One question I keep wondering - if it sounds so terrible why did you buy it? Some Strats are just turds no matter what you do to them.

[Cogs]

He built it. Probably just needs to switch out some stuff, experiment.

[Offshore Angler]

I'd probably swap out the bridge and springs. That's usually the culprit on a pingy Strat.

[sting7777]

I'd probably swap out the bridge and springs. That's usually the culprit on a pingy Strat.

Its a fender RI bridge as I understand - so shouldn't be an issue.

I really think its the amps/amp settings.

[Joobsauce]

I must say , not to doubt you jerryjg, but I find from going to different guitars, even with single coils, I need a good amount of amp adjustment, just from different DK Resistance and string gauge.

I must say, try Re-adjusting the pickups. Get the neck pickup a bit lower until you find where it sounds best, then adjust the mid and bridge pickups to match THE VOLUME. That should get you better.

And for the amp, I find adjusting the mids up or down, and adjusting the presence makes a TON of difference in my sound, especially the d and g strings.

Also, a thicker gauge string helps boost your low end, thats why I use 11's, and I'll be moving up to 12's in a bit. It takes a bit to get used to the thicker string and build up your callouses, but for me it's worth it. Think SRV bottom end with a good amount of sparkle with 11's!

Also, I've found that any single coil in the bridge pickup of a strat just sounds bad IMHO, so I'm swapping the GFS 60's repro with a GFS hot rails in the near future.

Hope any of this helps.

[jerryjg]

well I dont want to waste any more energy with this; mine or anyone elses. Ive come to the realization that everything I own sucks.Amps, Guitars, speakers..everything
.
I just cannot get any heavey volume without icepick. I've tried everything you all suggested.Everything(mostly). And, I mean,I play Marshall Cabinet Celestion Greenbacks and Marshall cabinet Gt-65's with 69 Sunn, Marshall JMP100 and Traynor YSR-1a.
I think its time to dump all my hardbody and bright guitars. I started building and buying before I knew much of anything. Im extremely close to dejection after all this time money and effort, just to be able to play at small volume-sure sounds lovely..so? . I will try an alder body strat,then a Mahogany or Koa, and then one by one I will dump my amps till I can play loud on one of them without that icepick attack .Be looking for my ash warmoth , an old gibson and hagstrom guitar coming up on the trading post. Stick a fork in me.I'm done...and my ears hurt.Ouch.

[Cogs]

You have no idea how many YEARS I've spent trying to build a Strat or two (w/the odd Tele) that was decent enough to make me want to keep it! Only recently have I acieved a certain amount of satisfaction.
Sometimes you have to let go of what you think you want in order to get what you really want. Alder is a great choice, & rosewood is also going to warm up the guitar. You might need a '60s style as opposed to the '50s ash/maple combo. A lot of snap in a maple neck. Might be too much for your ears. & that heavy ash body- make a cribbage board out of it & put it on craigslist.

[sting7777]

well I dont want to waste any more energy with this; mine or anyone elses. Ive come to the realization that everything I own sucks.Amps, Guitars, speakers..everything
.
I just cannot get any heavey volume without icepick. I've tried everything you all suggested.Everything(mostly). And, I mean,I play Marshall Cabinet Celestion Greenbacks and Marshall cabinet Gt-65's with 69 Sunn, Marshall JMP100 and Traynor YSR-1a.
I think its time to dump all my hardbody and bright guitars. I started building and buying before I knew much of anything. Im extremely close to dejection after all this time money and effort, just to be able to play at small volume-sure sounds lovely..so? . I will try an alder body strat,then a Mahogany or Koa, and then one by one I will dump my amps till I can play loud on one of them without that icepick attack .Be looking for my ash warmoth , an old gibson and hagstrom guitar coming up on the trading post. Stick a fork in me.I'm done...and my ears hurt.Ouch.

Sorry to hear that you feel this way. I still think that hooking up with someone local to you from the forum (if psossible) and having them check out the guitar as well as your amps/settings might help.

There was this guy at work who bought a blues deluxe and an attenuator, and told me that he couldnt get any good sounds out of it at all because all it did was distort early and have way too much high end etc.

He had the attenuator cranked (he thought it was barely on and had turned it the wrong way). His tone stack was super aggressive (and just based on the settings he had used on another amp - mid scopped and the bass and treble pegged). He was plugged into input 1.

I plugged his les paul into input 2, turned the treble and bass on the amp way down, brought up the mids, put the attentuator barely on so that the amp was usable in his basement, and got a perfectly lovely blues tone in about 2 minutes.

I have never seen someone so happy. He really just didn't realize how many factors there were for something that seemed really simple.

Anyway - before you sell everything or throw it away - try to get together with some other players and experiment and see how their rigs work and/or how they sound through your rig(s).

Good luck.

[Gravity Jim]

+1 on the above.

You're having an emotional reaction to the gear (and I can say that because I'm a very moody guy, subject the same kinds of reactions, so I know it when i see it). The only cure for that is to step back, don't think about it, and wait for the feeling to pass.

You'll come to realize that your gear is never as awesome or as horrible as you imagine it is.

Chill. When you feel less dark, experiment as sting suggests. But for sure don't flip out and sell it all. I know that sounds like it would feel good, but believe me: it won't.

[Guitar_Mc]

Ive come to the realization that everything I own sucks.Amps, Guitars, speakers..everything

I suspect this is not the problem.

Maybe its time to pick one guitar & one amp and spend then next month or so exploring the tonal possibilities of that one setup. Learn to figure out how to play that guitar.

Every guitar has a song in it. I don't believe in "tone turds". If you find one, ship it off to TFF Member Refin and see if he can find a good tone in it.

[sting7777]

I could make that guitar sound fine. I guarantee it.

yep

I feel the same way. it sounds like a decent bunch of parts and as long as you have a cord and an amp - I bet there's a bunch of folks who could rip it up with your rig...

[BradKM]

When you crank those amps, are you still standing at the same distance from them? Without a band or crowd noise?

If so, try to move away from the amps.

If you've got a 20' foot cord, walk into the next room.

That usually does it for me. Then I simply realize I'm playing too loud and turn down.

[Mooretone]

Check your tone and volume pots--a stamped 250K Pot does not necessarily mean it is producing 250K worth of resistance--a Potentiometer is an adjustable resistor. You might find, your main Tone pot, produces 270K or more--I have some come in over 280K. You can also check your Main Tone Pot Capacitor--it could be open. If that's the case, try a ceramic disc (large) .1 cap which will bleed more highs to ground. You can test your pots with a cheap multi-meter set on Ohms. Also, your pickups can be dropped into the body farther from the strings which will also help. You want to avoid Alnico VII magnets or AlnicoV over 1300gauss. Finally, if your Swam Ash body (which is what it appears to be) is finished in Poly, (which I don't know) it will sound brighter--you are playing a plastic finish basically, which can add to a brightness, but you can adjust its characteristics, by trying the tips I suggested. Hope it helps. By the way............your amplifiers will also play a big part, as will your footpedals. What you can do for now, is test your pots--put the weakest one on your volume pot, then the next at your main Tone pot and then the last one for your Bridge pickup. Hope this helped some.

[Karma-lite]

Jerryjg
You know it takes guts to hold you hands up and walk away.
Sometimes when you get a bug in your ear that your stuff sounds el duffo you are just far to close to it to judge. Pluckanoia I thing is the medical term.
I've got a real dog of a clone Gibbo that when I start doubting the sound I am hearing I bang away on that for a day and come back with a new ear. It's very true we all have our own 'sound' formed by our own playing.

I wonder if we all spent a day, blindfolded, in a Guitar dealer playing all the different Strats with all the diiferent bits and pieces, what would we come out with? if we could pick one. Be interesting.



I'd get a NOS esquire and play it, and then play it more and then thirdly play it some more.
BUT...... making up guitars is great fun and interesting, just steer clear when it gets a bit OCD.

[demioblue]

I could make that guitar sound fine. I guarantee it. Put it aside for awhile, grab an acoustic guitar, and try to get different sounds out of it. Your primary tone shaping devices are your ears and hands. Learn how to use them, and you'll sound good on anything.

You know, on this point, I've realised that my expectations of sounds are changing constantly, and there's no ONE single sound I go for.

Say, I find this pickup not powerful enough on my tube amp, and I plug it into a good solid state amp with heavy gain, and it's fine. Then, when I plug it back into the tube amp, I sort of agree with what I get, and no longer think it's not enough. I don't know how to explain it, but I think a lot to do with it is psychological. So I tend to leave it for a while and work with what I got for the time being. Only after say a month with the same guitar, settings and amp, and I'm still dissatisfied do I reach for a screw driver. Of course, some initial "wrong" things are immediately noticable. But if they're set right, and I'm not happy with the sound, then I leave it. I find that the very next day, I could actually find the sound very agreeable after just one day.

Maybe it's just me...

[1958lpjr]

Light weight Ash with a minimal finish is the way to go for the biggest tones in my humble opinion. It seems to me that the best Ash Tele's are pretty light and feature fairly open grain and grain patterns ----but there are always exceptions. Tone pots are a big issue as well ---but once again sometimes the broken rules (This pickup calls for this pot etc.), sound the best. A pre B-1 Dimarzio Tele PU sounds amazing with a 250k but calls for a 500---go figure.
By the way the subject guitar is very pretty and screams for a shell guard and white PU covers. Good Luck!

[cherrick]

good lord, just go out and buy a Les Paul.

[Cogs]

lol! Party crasher!

[SuperDuperG]

If you have another Strat around or can get your hands on another one that's natural finished compare the weight. A swamp ash body should feel a lot lighter than a regular ash body. If they feel like they weigh the same the body you have is not swamp ash. You should be able to tell right away the difference in weight.

Another thing you can check is what rating the pots are that are in your guitar. They should be at 250. If they are testing out at 500, change them to 250. That will "unbrighten" the sound. Another thing to check is the pups. A lot of the cheaper foreign pups are sounding "tinny" lately. If the pots check out at 250, put in some good quality pups and that should help a lot.

Happy Trails.....

[boobtube21]

Maybe I'm clueless, but I just don't see how wood could produce icepick treble. Maybe a thinner tone due to lack of lower frequencies, or sterility due to lack of harmonic resonance, but think about it...wood making treble? I doubt it.

I'm with Guitar Mc, I think the problem lies with your pickups or amp settings or something. I'm going through some icepick problems right now, but the issue began with the installation of new pickups, so I know that's what it is.

Could be speakers too, Jerry, and that with your other guitars you have the ability to escape the icepick by using the amp or guitar controls. Speakers can definitely be a source of icepick. Try a Weber AlNiCo Blue Dog, you won't get any icepick there. I have one, and I swear it's so mellow it'll roll off any icepick treble you throw at it.