Not quite a rebirth after all...

[yankeerob]

The 5E7M with Presence is the tone stack I put in mine (well I put in in a 5E5, but that's just a couple resistors' difference). It's pretty simple to do...but honestly, there isn't a whole lot the Mid control does compared with the rest.

Yer I found that - it was the same in HRD - but it was handy to have if just to give it a bit more grunt when you needed it - the presence is more important though - if not for just that little bit more top end it provides...

I noticed the changes you've (JAM) made in the 5E7M PS - upping C17 & C5 to 40uF and a different choke - which is fine if I go with the Weber or other PT - but I was rather hoping to make use of the HRDv PT to save some serious bucks on this project - is that not possible? The problem I have with using the Weber iron is it'll cost me - at the least - as much in carriage as the bits themselves so I'd likely get one made from the Weber spec - then we won't be breaking our b*lls trying to figure the damned thing out.

I was prepared to experiment with using the HRDv PS to power the rest of the 5E7 - and perhaps come up with something a bit different - a hybrid if you like - but I don't know enough about why it wouldn't work - and am guessing now that I've studied the drawings a bit harder... that we'd lose alot of the tweed magic by the time we made it work so the point is moot?

I'm obviously in your hands on this - I'm seeing Dave Green at Matamp tomorrow to see if he's got anything lying around in his archives (they ain't half got some relics up in their storage area) as they've bought more surplus stock over the years than anyone I know.

The problem I have is the lack of experience with tube gear - I tend to think of things in terms of hi-fi and pro-audio - mainly SS realms - so I'm thinking - yer - I have been using the G# for a drop of chorus or tremolo - albeit very occasionally - but it's nice to have when you want it - and the G#'s an FX loop only job - you can't plug the guitar into it and plug the output into the amp - it doesn't work that way and was specifically designed for the S/R scenario - and I have to say - is the best rack effect for the money ever - the tremolo is really sweet on it - but we can tackle that later...

Just a couple other quickies - you mentioned upgrading the choke to a W014684 but have drawn a W022699 in there and I'm guessing we're going with all 500V's in C18, C17, C5, C6 & C20? Thanks a bunch guys!!!!!!!

[JAM]

Just a couple other quickies - you mentioned upgrading the choke to a W014684 but have drawn a W022699 in there and I'm guessing we're going with all 500V's in C18, C17, C5, C6 & C20? Thanks a bunch guys!!!!!!!

You can use the HRD PT, but it's going to need a FWB rectifier.

I put the W022699 in the schem since it's closer to the one in the HRD. Basically the output stage is a '59'Bassman, (not the PI). Yes, you need 500v caps, unless you get a copper cap module that has a pretty good drop.

Another option is to rebuild the HRD as a 5F6A.

[yankeerob]

Another option is to rebuild the HRD as a 5F6A.

That's a damned good idea - full marks for reading between my lines - OK - so let's run with that as I used the bright switch on anyway - apparently there's a good FX loop design in a book called 'The Ultimate Tone' by Kevin O'Connor which is specific to the 5F6A so I'll chase that up - meanwhile - the existing HRD circuit uses a FWBR anyway so we haven't got to think about that - 4 1N5062's ain't gonna break the bank - suppose it'll be the cap circuit after that to sort and we'll be in business....

[NTBluesGuitar]

For the record, back in post #7, I suggested the 5F6A.

With the 5F6A there's a bright and normal channel, no switch. But, as you'll find, they're interactive channels. A lot of guys jumper them, too. I don't know how interactive they are as in the 5E3 or 5E5/5F4/5E7, though.

Yeah, the HRD circuit uses the FWBR, but a Copper Cap simulates Tube Rectifier sag. If you're really going for tweed-authenticity, that's about as close as you can get without adding iron.

I did see someone here do a real tube rectifier in there HRDlx. That was interesting...but the less holes you have to cut, the better, IMO.

I suggest you try to live life without the F/X loop...if you build this right, you won't even miss it!

[yankeerob]

For the record, back in post #7, I suggested the 5F6A.

Yer - I kinda got all caught up the excitement of it all

With the 5F6A there's a bright and normal channel, no switch. But, as you'll find, they're interactive channels. A lot of guys jumper them, too. I don't know how interactive they are as in the 5E3 or 5E5/5F4/5E7, though.

Thought about that as I've seen a lot of guys running JTM45 clones doing it... Once upon a time I had 70's JMP 50W head but never bothered - I have a few ideas I'm going to try externally once the things up and running in the way of switching/combining but will likely just use one or the other...

Yeah, the HRD circuit uses the FWBR, but a Copper Cap simulates Tube Rectifier sag. If you're really going for tweed-authenticity, that's about as close as you can get without adding iron.

I reckon - for the sake of simplicity and expedience - I'm gonna focus on using the FWBR for now - these kind of things can be changed at a later date. I've also come across something called a 'Maven Peal Sag Circuit' that's caught my eye - I'm at the enquiry stage as it's bound to be tons o' cash and I'm a bit light in that dept. - hence trying to salvage the HRDv iron - but it's something to think about for the future - especially as I plan to build some sort of British clone after this project...

I did see someone here do a real tube rectifier in there HRDlx. That was interesting...but the less holes you have to cut, the better, IMO.

Yer - I had all sorts of ideas about flipping it and making it a head - but I'm gonna stick to the least amount of fuss on this one - and stick it back in the 2-12 combo cab. I can get all sorts of discarded chassis' from Matamp for future projects - and will likely be able to scrounge a better choke for this project off 'em - they're pretty good guys and have been a godsend when I've needed the odd bit - I put my head around the door this afternoon but apparently orders are quiet and Dave was at home welding his boat whilst it was dry (don't even ask... it's pretty much rained all summer over here!)

I suggest you try to live life without the F/X loop...if you build this right, you won't even miss it!

Yer - well that's the way it's gonna be to start anyway - I won't start messing about with it until we get the basic model up and running - so here's where we appear to be up to with the PS:

{edit} I've dumped the pic that was here to save space

I'm gonna sub 1N5408's for the 1N5062's as I can get 'em easier than the 1N5062's and they're 1000V 3A instead of 800V 2A so they should be fine - gotta buy min 10 anyway and they'll do me for the next project as well... I've corrected the Fender drawing to include the CT on the bias winding so we're all on the same page... am I right in thinking that if I measured 58V between the browns and 29V between either brown and the B/Y that it's a 29-0-29 winding - and since it's isolated from the main supply (not a bias tap) JAM advised

since the bias is derived from it's own winding, an appropriate voltage divider and bias pot will have to be added.

? Oh - yeah - I almost forgot - which turrets are you using - 534-1540-2, 534-1540-4, 534-1509-2 or 534-1509-4's?

[NTBluesGuitar]

Oh - yeah - I almost forgot - which turrets are you using - 534-1540-2, 534-1540-4, 534-1509-2 or 534-1509-4's?

Oh....let's see...I got the 534-1540-4 turrets. I recommend the associated staking tool as well: 534-TL-5

Of course, the turret model depends on the board thickness.

[yankeerob]

I take it you're using 1/8" board (though you'd be forgiven for thinking it's thicker from the pics) - thanks for that!! Yer - I wouldn't even attempt it without the staking tool - they're not cheap (though I'm not b*tchin' about the price either) - cool.....

In an attempt to simplify this process I've created a jpg of the Weber drawing with the HRDv PS (less the LV circuit for the ch. switching etc) and OT....

http://images.lilypix.com/albums/use...A-Dv_schem.jpg

I'd really appreciate it if JAM would have a look at it and tell me what I'd need to change or add etc. I just thought if we had a drawing of how the HRDv PS is laid out and with the OT in circuit it might be quicker than trying to work it out between two drawings...

Have ordered a sq. foot of blue garolite (the black does look really cool but I didn't want to be a copycat ) and I'm gonna go for the 1509-4 turrets - the extra height isn't as important on this project as it'll be on the next - good tip on stacking though...

If I'm being too much of a pain just let me know - but I'm pretty excited about all this - BTW - that Maven Peal Sag Circuit isn't something you can buy off the shelf - it's for commercial mfrs.

Hope yer enjoying the weekend

[JAM]

It looks OK, but you might as well use the whole winding for the bias instead of the weird way Fender did it with the voltage doubler.

This is how I think the bias could look:

http://members.canonphotogroup.com/joem/HRDv%20Bias.jpg

Someone else might want to see if this is correct, I drew this up in a hurry.

[NTBluesGuitar]

I take it you're using 1/8" board (though you'd be forgiven for thinking it's thicker from the pics) ...

If I'm being too much of a pain just let me know - but I'm pretty excited about all this

This is exciting! I had so much fun figuring mine out...it really sounds good, too.

Yep, I used the 1/8". 1/16" would work just fine, but I preferred it thicker. For cutting, I used a table saw with a finishing blade to cut the garolite into 3"x12" strips.

One thing about the turrets, though, is that the back of the turrets don't leave a good connection platform for jumpers...not much to solder to. I recommend wiring the jumpers around the base of the turrets:

[elicross]

byootiful.

[yankeerob]

Big thanks to JAM for his bias scematic - below is the starting point drawing:

http://images.lilypix.com/albums/use...A-Dv_schem.jpg

Drawing the board layout now - if anyone cares to chip in on the schematic - all thoughts are welcome... again mega thanks to JAM!!!

[JAM]

Hey, I'm glad to help!

A couple of points to clarify - the 25uf cap should be 100V. If I did the math right, the voltage adjustment range should be from approximately -60V to -30V, you can adjust the range by playing with the values of R1 and R3.

[NTBluesGuitar]

Amazing how different the bias setup is on the Deville compared to the Deluxe. Hey, JAM, on the HRDlx, I only used one diode to the circuit and the other brown tap just went to ground.

Is the brown/yellow tap what makes this approach so different?

Can't wait to see your layout, YankeeRob.

[JAM]

Amazing how different the bias setup is on the Deville compared to the Deluxe. Hey, JAM, on the HRDlx, I only used one diode to the circuit and the other brown tap just went to ground.

Is the brown/yellow tap what makes this approach so different?

[edit]

I had some of the voltages incorrect in my thinking on the first drawing. I've revised the schematic accordingly.

[yankeerob]

Hi guys - this layout's a nightmare - but I reckon I'll have it done tomorrow night... keepin' me quiet, eh?

[stevo]

Hi Folks

Sorry to bust in, but I've been following this thread with interest (I have a deville that just doesn't cut it anymore). A couple of, ok, basic things aren't clear to me, a short answer would be useful

- What's the status now? What circuit are you using - 5e5a, 5f6, 5e7?
- Are you using the stock PT or not?
- If you are using the stock PT, are you going with Deville voltages to the plates, or cutting it down more to tweed levels?
- Are you using a standard layout (Hoffmann or Fender) or custom?
- Any chance, when this is all done, of a summary, with layout and schematic?

Thanks in advance, this is scheduled as my 2008 project. I'll go back to lurking now.

steven

[yankeerob]

Yer - no worries - the latest schematic has been posted - we've bastardised a Weber 5F6A schematic with the standard HRDv PS & OT - with a bias circuit thrown in by JAM - it's basically a starting point - I'm drawing the layout now - probably have it completed by tomorrow - it's quite a job!!! Already scrapped one version but it's coming on - will keep you all posted!!

[elicross]

Can I ask how you guys learned to do this stuff? I can barely read a schematic and can't even imagine creating my own. Do you all happen to be electrical engineers, or what?

[NTBluesGuitar]

I just spent a year or so reading everything I could online. Then I tried applying what I learned on a HRDlx. Then I rebuilt it, and am rebuilding it again.

Hanging out here helps, too.

[ziess]

Yeah, tell me about it! Before I came here I had one electric, one acoustic and one amp!



That's about 2/3 of the collection... and i've built a Bassman clone from scratch. The tweed deluxe ships next week followed by the reverb unit.

Tommy.

[elicross]

Wow, this is a dangerous place to hang out!

[yankeerob]

Not as dangerous as this!!!

http://images.lilypix.com/albums/use...F6A_layout.jpg

I think it's right - had to twist a few things around here and there - easy to run outta real estate on a 4" x 12" board - only one extra hole up by the switches - have laid out the PT, OT & choke slightly differently on the other side as well but have kept them as far away from each other and the preamp side as poss - don't know how that'd work on the 410 either as this is for the 212...

Re guitar collections - mine's a relatively small due to the 's knowing everything that goes on - mind you I've been up in the study for nearly two days solid doing the layout on AutoCAD which is no mean feat - 'what're doing in there? Looking at porn, no doubt!' - uh - in a way she's right

[NTBluesGuitar]

What an interesting design! I haven't put the time in to really check through the connections, but it's definitely a fresh layout. I didn't think to run the inputs left to right...I just drilled new holes.

I tend to do my layouts based on the classic layouts, but that's all just personal taste. Can't wait to see more development!

AutoCad, eh? ....I use Adobe Illustrator, but then, I come from a graphic design background so using that is like using a web-browser to me.

Did you draw this around Sprague Atoms? Just wondering.

I dig this.

[yankeerob]

Yer - well - no one's gonna see the controls - this one's gonna be my secret weapon - presuming it works - naw - just sayin' that so as not to tempt fate - I have every faith in it's being a bit of a monster what with the slightly higher votages!

Strangely - both ACAD & AI are vector based so they both translate in a very precise mechanical way - wish I'd kept up my AI skills but like you it's a case of what you use day to day... So I started by drawing the chassis out unfolded as is and thought - what am I gonna do with all those holes? Plus - as you know - they aren't equidistant but as providence would have it the square holes are in places where I might add switches for later options - there's one between the two volumes and one between the bass and mid - channel combining and mid frequency/boost mods? - who knows ... but I've come to use Neutrik switched stereo jack sockets with gold plated berylium copper contacts that cost a little bit more than Switchcrafts but have two advantages - all the poles are switched and they're nylon bodied so they're totally isolated from the chassis (forcing an alternative to a mechanical earth connection which is more reliable and less prone to creating earth loops) - it would have been a tight squeeze and a nightmare to wire in a rectangular pattern... so it's a compromise (in my best Sean Connery accent)...

The switching advantage really comes into play at the speaker outs (which isn't shown) as the 8 ohm tap from the OT goes through the sleeve switch on the 4 ohm socket nearest to it - and the 4 ohm tap goes through the sleeve switch on the 8 ohm socket - that way it's impossible for both taps to have a load on them at the same time. The worst case is an open circuit if the speakers are plugged in wrong but you'd know straight away if that was the case...

The big e.caps are F&T's - all the 630v caps are Vishay Roederstein polyester (TAD badge 'em as 'Mustard Caps' and charge double for the privilege) which apparently are less harsh than OD's and I've come to find are very close tolerance - the bias pot is an AB 1W wirewound - the rest are Alpha's - they're low noise and built v. well with a solid ally shaft - the rest is a mix of the best stuff I can get my hands on - I mean I want this to be built like a tank - though built like a tank doesn't always mean 'sounds good' - so it's really a suck it and see job. Mouser's turning out to be the place to find a decent range of axial passives - both traditional suppliers over here can't be bothered with them and are stuffed with SMC's etc. Wankers!

I've been through the layout a couple hundred times - it should be ok - let me know if you spot anything I've overlooked - now it's a case of waiting for the bits so the thread will probably be quiet for a while - catch ya later

[NTBluesGuitar]

Strangely - both ACAD & AI are vector based so they both translate in a very precise mechanical way - wish I'd kept up my AI skills but like you it's a case of what you use day to day...

Yeah, I've convert DWGs to AI routinely. Just sayin' that I do the AI thing for kicks and giggles.

... but I've come to use Neutrik switched stereo jack sockets with gold plated berylium copper contacts that cost a little bit more than Switchcrafts but have two advantages - all the poles are switched and they're nylon bodied so they're totally isolated from the chassis (forcing an alternative to a mechanical earth connection which is more reliable and less prone to creating earth loops)

I've been really tempted to try the Neutrik Jacks, and even have a set of 4, but I'm pretty unfamiliar with them and haven't yet learned what lugs mean what (ground, shunt, tip, etc.). That's just a matter of time.

Unless you happen to have a link handy to a tech sheet that properly illustrates the inner workings of these.

[stevo]

Unless you happen to have a link handy to a tech sheet that properly illustrates the inner workings of these.

This should do it for you -
http://www.neutrik.com/de/de/audio/2...oductlist.aspx

[NTBluesGuitar]

Danke, Stevo!

[yankeerob]

Here's one in english

http://www.neutrik.com/us/en/audio/2...-S_detail.aspx

They're excellent - they come with three fibre washers so you can gauge the thickness of the panel - also you have to be careful that the chrome ferrule doesn't make contact with the ground switch 'cause it can jam it against the body and stop it moving thereby not allowing the jack into the socket and negates the point of isolation - but the berylium copper is extremely low memory (meaning it returns to it's original shape after jack insertion - I realised that could be taken two ways!!) and of course the gold plating is great for conductivity... they're pretty cheap when you consider the quality...

Also a quick question for everybody - I'm thinking of uprating all the resistors by x2 - ie 2W's for the 1W's etc... the idea being to increase the reliability - I'm gonna use 5% tolerances anyway - but I'd be right in thinking I'm just increasing the heat dissipation - I'm still going with carbon film as I don't seem to be able to find carbon compostions in the values I need and have been told that metal film's don't sound good...

[yankeerob]

Here's how I wire the spkr jacks - when the jack is inserted the switch is opened and the connection from the OT is broken - I didn't realise the 'S' on the drawings stood for 'shunt' - I thought it was for 'sleeve' - it's common to refer to the shunt as 'R' for ring over here - as in tip, ring & sleeve - ya learn something everyday!

[NTBluesGuitar]

Sorry, I probably used the term 'shunt' wrong, maybe because I'm used to Switchcraft jacks. But I appreciate the info, regardless...thanks.

As I said, I have 4 of these available. I wanted to used them for the input jacks, and that's why I wanted to get familiar with them.

Regarding resistors, go ahead and stick with 1W Carbon Film. I don't think you need to go with anything higher until you're dealing with power supplies. But then, you'd be using metal oxide or metal film there, anyway.

The pics I've posted already have the Xicon 1W CF resistors throughout the preamp.

[yankeerob]

Ah - hmm - perhaps I need Switchcraft jacks for my inputs? The plot thickens...

[stevo]

Rob-
what's the status?
I'm on pins and needles here.

steven

[yankeerob]

OK - Stevo and others - the state of play is I've gotten all the components apart from the stuff from Mouser though they use FedEx (I'm not inviting opinions on FedEx here, please ) so they should arrive fairly imminently. I've sourced G10/FR4 in the UK - have to buy 12' sq. (and green ) but they're gonna cut it for me - picking that up tomorrow - will have some spare to throw up (not literally) on the 'for sale' area if any European based peeps are interested in taking some off my hands - turrets are coming from Harwin via Abacus/Deltron a fair savings there and they look pretty meaty - I'm gonna have enough stuff to build 5 of these once we get everything settled - again may offer the spares - either pre-built or as kits in the appropriate area... and that's about it for now

[stevo]

Rob -

I'm very interested in a board when you get that far. Consider that a commitment.

steven

[yankeerob]

Yer no worries - BTW - just to keep everything straight - I posted some info about the the Neutrik stereo jack sockets that unbeknown to me wasn't entirely accurate - it turns out that the gold plated ones are M223-RS's - made specially for RS Components in the UK (part no 478-015) - and aren't generally available from the Neutrik product catalogue - the gold plating isn't going to mean a jot on inputs anyway and marginal if any difference on the spkr outs - I'm sure the nickel plated ones (NMJ6HC-S) will do the job admirably...

[yankeerob]

Just another quick update - I've received everything but the turrets - which could be as much as 10 days - as I've had to order a small quantity (500!!!) from a distributor - what a pain!!! So I have a great big bag of stuff and will get on with getting everything else prepared - tranny's relocated - pots and jack sockets in their new holes - boards drilled - etc - and wait for the turrets to arrive

[yankeerob]

Hoo - bloody - fooking - rah!!!! I'm told the turrets arrive tomorrow - I'm away on training for three days next week (Mon-Wed) so I actually get to start soldering Thurs onward - it's a wonder anyone does any business in this bloody fooking country!!!

Sorry for the wait fellas - it's not me - it's amazing how complacent people can be - especially women sale staff selling engineering products!!!!

[ziess]

I'm looking forward to the results!

Where are you getting your blank board from?
If you'd be interested in getting rid of some of those turrets then you can find my email in my profile.

Tommy.

[dreadzeppelin]

Rob
How's the mod goin'

[NTBluesGuitar]

So I have a great big bag of stuff and will get on with getting everything else prepared - tranny's relocated - pots and jack sockets in their new holes - boards drilled - etc - and wait for the turrets to arrive

Wait a minute...what circuit did you choose again? You shouldn't need to be relocating iron on this if you're doing any kind of 2-6L6, 3-12AX7 amp in there. Also new holes for the tube sockets? I only had to drill mounting holes for tube sockets and input jacks.

Just curious.