Compromise time

[Kap'n]

I'm bummed.

Played in another restaraunt/bar with pathetically noisy electrical system tonight.

The sound was fine about halfway through the first set. Then they started dimming the lights, and even with little or no gain, my strat was stupidly noisy.

I'm thinking I need a quiet guitar that at least approximates single coil sounds for some of these bars. The LP ain't gonna cut it for some stuff.

Any thoughts for pickups?

[stratcat62]

INMHO Kinman's come closest to single coil strat tones in a hum free pup. I have Woodstocks and Blues. The Woodstocks were a bit to bright for my taste but the Blues have worked out perfectly for me tone wise and have been utterly silent in the worst environments. It was the condition of the electrical system in most Florida clubs that drove me to Kinman.

[Plugger]

My favourite pups at the moment are the P-100s on my LP Special, which as I'm sure you know are a stacked dummy coil design, like the Kinmans.

I think they're great. As quiet as a humbucker, but with much more cut and response like a true single coil. I know the single-coil fundamentalists will disagree, but I think on balance a stacked single coil design is probably the best compromise going.

I'd be tempted to try Kinmans on my Strat except for the exhorbitant cost. In the meantime, I'll fall back on positions 2&4 with the RW/RP middle pup in a pinch.

You didn't say, but I assume you're not using a RW/RP middle pup on your Strat?

-Mark

[stratcat62]

Just a comment on the cost of Kinmans. The last time I looked they were not priced much more than the Fender Custom Shop line. Admittedly they are not cheap, but sometimes you have to bite the bullet in order to achieve your goals. I've had my Kinman Blues in my #1 strat for over a year with the K7 harness Kinman offers and I've not been disappointed.

[Guitar_Mc]

Dimarzio Virtual Vintage.

Don't mess with one of your favorite strats, just pick up a used MIM strat to put them in. Then bring it to every gig as a backup.

Or just use your humbucker guitars on those gigs. The audience in a place like that isn't gonna care if the tone isn't exactly historically accurate for that particular song.

[Plugger]

Just a comment on the cost of Kinmans. The last time I looked they were not priced much more than the Fender Custom Shop line. Admittedly they are not cheap, but sometimes you have to bite the bullet in order to achieve your goals. I've had my Kinman Blues in my #1 strat for over a year with the K7 harness Kinman offers and I've not been disappointed.

Where are you pricing them? I just looked at the kinman website... the price for a set of three Strat blues pups w/o the harness is AU$495 (about US$408) and w/ K7 harness AU$615 (about US$507). By comparison I see Fender custom shop sets go for about US$150 on eBay pretty regularly...

To put the price into perspective, my Gibson LP Special cost me about US$500. Even came with two _stacked single coil_ pups... included at no extra cost!

-Mark

[Plugger]

my strat was stupidly noisy.

Hey! We're not talking about your "hello kitty" strat, are we?

I don't give no advice regarding "hello kitty" guitars (except "stop it.")

Anyway, why would you care about what you were _sounding_ like while playing one of those?

-Mark

[stratcat62]

I paid $220 for Kinmans (direct retail price quote) at the time I bought them. I just checked and a set of Blues w/o harness was $260 Am.. Musicians fiend lists SCN's at $199, Texas Specials at $220 and CS 69's at $220. Yes there is shipping involved ($45 bringing you up to $305) but I don't find the cost difference mentioned in your post. My only point is INMHO they are the best of the noiseless and worth the price difference. A cost difference of $85 being exhorbitant is determined by how important noiseless is to you.

[Don]

I had a used set of Kinmans Broadcasters in a Tele. I wouldn't choose them for use in a studio guitar, but they'd be fine in a live situation.

My biggest grip with them was that the neck pickup sounded more like a Strat than a Tele maybe due to it's metalized plastic cover.

I bought them used on a forum for a reasonable price.

[Plugger]

I paid $220 for Kinmans (direct retail price quote) at the time I bought them. I just checked and a set of Blues w/o harness was $260 Am.. Musicians fiend lists SCN's at $199, Texas Specials at $220 and CS 69's at $220. Yes there is shipping involved ($45 bringing you up to $305) but I don't find the cost difference mentioned in your post. My only point is INMHO they are the best of the noiseless and worth the price difference. A cost difference of $85 being exhorbitant is determined by how important noiseless is to you.

Yeah, you're right... Kinman sells the Blues + k7 harness for US$260 to _overseas_ customers, but sells them for the equivalent of US$507 to the _local_ Australian customers. He must think he's a legend in his own lunchtime over here or something. At any rate, I'll pass. I think I've now been turned off Kinmans for good. Sheesh!

-Mark

EDIT: Hang on... the current Kinman website price for US customer for the Blues + k7 is US$394 before shipping... the US$260 is for a set w/o the k7 harness. So the overseas/local price comparison is really US$394 vs US$507 (Blues w/ k7 harness), or US$260 vs US$408 (Blues w/o k7 harness).

Still a ridiculous rip-off, but at least I've now _more accurately quantified_ the extent of the rip-off.

[Kap'n]

Hey! We're not talking about your "hello kitty" strat, are we?

No, that's got a SUPER DISTORTION in there. It's what I ended up playing on the "strat" songs for the rest of the night. Just because it sounded more stratty that anything else I had.

Thanks for the tips, folks. I'll come up with something.

[clayville]

What about one of those Furman Power Conditioner thingies??

(clearly I don't know what I'm talking about)

[Plugger]

Get these for that MIM G-Mc is talking about. They're the cheapest solution out there. For a better single coil type sound out of them, wire the coils in parallel instead of series. They're a four wire pickup, so it'll be easy to do...

As well as being cheap, I think these also deserve the "pig-dog-ugly" pickup of the week award.

And you have to file your pickguard for them to fit! That takes commitment for a set of certifiied PDU pups...

Still, I'd likely go with these than a set of Kinmans.

-Mark

[stratcat62]

Yo Plugger -
I think most pups are overpriced. Not a rip off exactly as everything is sold at the highest price the market will bear. I have a California Strat and I'm looking at GFS stuff because of pricing, but the Kinman's are as advertised. As to the Furman Power Conditioner, I run one and while it also does as advertised it won't quiet single coils in the presence of neon and fluorescent fixtures.

I'm also pretty irritated with the fact that I've yet to buy a guitar at any price that didn't force me to do some mods. As much as I love them, Strats are overpriced too but I'm one of those that will find the money to get what delivers the playability and tone I crave - guitars, parts, amps, pedals or strings. Being a guitar player has to be some form of ancient curse. We all go to our grave never completely satisfied with our gear or our ability and every manufacturer knows it and prices accordingly.

[Mesotech]

For the cost of new pickups, you could get a nice line conditioner, and keep your existing tone. For less than the cost of a set of pickups you could get 3 decent (but not extremely nice) line conditioners for you and the rest of the band.

Another advantage of a line conditioner is that it works for all of your gear, not just the guitar you would have otherwise changed pickups in.

[Plugger]

Not a rip off exactly [...]

Mostly, I was complaining of the inconsistency of Kinman's local vs overseas pricing. I agree that prices reflect what the market will bear, and there is certainly a loyal market for Kinman's products.

I'm never _completely_ satisfied with my gear either, but I do get to a point where I'm _practically_ satisfied. By that, I think, "yeah, the gear's good enough to do the job, if it doesn't sound good, it's definitely not the gear's fault!"

That's where I am with my strat pups. The pups I've got in my MIM Standard are stock... sometimes I wish they were a bit quieter, but, for the most part, they do the job and and do the job well. My workable but not ideal fall-back when things get too noisy is position 2&4 with a RW/RP middle pup. Overall, the tone is more than fine when teamed up with the guitar and the amp I run them through.

Actually, I'm continually amazed at how good the Fender gear is these days for the price. Just great bang-for-buck. My customisations on my entry-level MIM Standards have been minimal... new bridges (I can't stand them floppy trem arms on the stock bridges), and a bit of adjusting of the pole piece heights on the bridge pups. That's it.

But I appreciate what is fine for one player is intolerable to the next, so I'm glad there are options like Kinmans and Callahams of the world. I'm sure as you and many others have attested, Kinman makes great pups -- they're just not for me, at least not at those prices!

-Mark

[Kap'n]

A "line conditioner" doesn't fix the problem. I'm plugged into the PA's power conditioner 100% of the time. It's RF noise, not line noise.

I'm considering one of those Suhr plates. Any experience?

[cdw2000]

Bill Lawrence http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/Pickup_Window/280.htm
or Fender SCN (designed by Bill) pickups will get you 95% there if you don't want to shell out for Kinmans.

[Kap'n]

I'm not a big fan of the Lawrence sound, or the Fender noiseless.

I'm really leaning towards the Suhr system. I've never seen one used, so I'm thinking that might be a good sign. I imagine I could probably get most of my money back, if I'm not digging it.

Anybody have any experience with them?

[Kap'n]

Yeah, I remember him raving about it when he first got it, but I've never known him to be happy with anything long term, and that was a couple of years ago or so.

What I meant by "I've never seen one used" was I've never seen one for sale used, as opposed to "I've never seen anybody use one" which would have quite a different meaning.

[JAM]

Kap'n,

Are you looking to replace the pups in your main Strat, or is this for another Strat setup for low noise? I have the Gold LS that came off my Strat plus. They're not for sale, but you're welcome to try them out - you might find they are satisfactory in a 2nd instrument that is setup for noisy (electrically speaking) environments.

[Kap'n]

Scott Henderson has one, but he's so gainy, I don't think I'd be able to tell the difference.

Yep. I saw that clip. That's a perfect example of what I don't want to sound like.

[Kap'n]

Are you looking to replace the pups in your main Strat, or is this for another Strat setup for low noise?

Ideally, I'd like to have one instrument, but I realize that might not be feasable.

Thanks for the offer, though!

[NeoFauve]

I didn't realize that Suhr backplate was such a simple add-on thing.

For that price, I hope it works as described.

[FrankJohnson]

You know - those GFS Bldes, the Bardin type.......
(Lil Killers)

http://store.guitarfetish.com/casetof3lilk1.html

They seem like a nice alternative for on axe to fulfiull that need.......

i would be curious, and if I didn't always piss away my extra $$ on silly stuff for my bass, I would probably try them.

That is my thought for the day.

[Kap'n]

For that price, I hope it works as described.

Me too. Apparently they were something like $350, but are now around $260.

I figure if I don't like it, I can flip it to some suck...er, customer for around two bills. Kind of a hit, but it's less costly than a bad pickup choice, I guess.

[rudutch]

http://www.lutron.com/applicationnotes/360484.pdf

dimmers $&^^%$#@(&^%!

[JAM]

Ideally, I'd like to have one instrument, but I realize that might not be feasable.

Thanks for the offer, though!

Hey, no problem. I just dont know if any low-noise Strat pickup is going to sound as good as a true Strat single coil. That's why I thought a 2nd ax setup that way might be a better way to go. You'd only use it noisy clubs.

[Kap'n]

http://www.lutron.com/applicationnotes/360484.pdf

dimmers $&^^%$#@(&^%!

Fat chance on getting a club to buy a "lamp de-buzzing coil."

[djinn1973]

Vintage "Noiseless" Strat® Pickups
Hot "Noiseless" Strat® Pickups

[Offshore Angler]

Kap''n, my concern is that the dimmers caused the problem. It may be coming through the AC an not be RF. If that's the case no pickups will solve the problem.

Dimmers do often put noise in the AC circuit.

[Kap'n]

Kap''n, my concern is that the dimmers caused the problem. It may be coming through the AC an not be RF. If that's the case no pickups will solve the problem.

Dimmers do often put noise in the AC circuit.

The AC circuit was fine. I had a decent power conditioner, and there was no significant noise with humbuckers.

[Don]

I don't know if I want to admit this here, but I just put a Duncan Hot Stack in the bridge position of my USACG T-Style to fatten the tone up a bit and I like it.

It seemed that every single coil that I put in the guitar didn't have enough bass, too much mids and a thin top end.

The Hot Stack is very balanced tonally, has sparkle and chime and still sounds like a Tele. I already owned the pickup, I thought I sold it here a couple of years ago, apparently nobody wanted it, so the price was right.

As an added bonus, it's quiet as hell. I used it with my PodXT at work and didn't even have to shut off my computer monitor!

Oh, and it drives my tweed Deluxe clone real nice.

[Kap'n]

I don't know if I want to admit this here, but I just put a Duncan Hot Stack in the bridge position of my USACG T-Style to fatten the tone up a bit and I like it.

There's no shame in finding stuff you like.

Face it, if we all liked the same stuff, we'd all be middle aged guys wearing hats and funny expressions..

[refin]

Well,there's gonna be a thousand different responses as far as pups.
I've had great luck with (1) Fender Vintage Noiseless(tele and strat)
(2) DiMarzio Virtual Vintage (tele),and (3) Lawrence tele and strat .

There are alot of detractors to "noiseless" or "stack coil" pups.......but I say that the ego of tradition can wreak havok with dimmers! I prefer stock units,and have more guitars with them than noiseless---but if Beck doesn't mind,why should I? He gets a ....ahem....pretty good tone.

[NeoFauve]

Face it, if we all liked the same stuff, we'd all be middle aged guys wearing hats and funny expressions..

http://www.five-finger-discount.com/kitty.jpg

Face it, when I know the perfect picture exists, I cannot resist.

[refriedwhiskey]

That's so wrong it's right.

[Plugger]

That's so wrong it's right.

No it's not.

-Mark

[refriedwhiskey]

Not wrong or not right?

[NeoFauve]

Face it, if we all agreed on what's so wrong it's right, we'd all be middle aged guys wearing hats and funny expressions..