Strat set-up -- what am I missing?

[Jack Gilvey]

I agree that shimming does change the action, but I'm again failing to see where it can do something that the bridge can't.

If nothing else, it allows you to vary the height of your bridge for a given action. This effects tension.

[boobtube21]

Yeah my bad, Jack Gilvey--I actually did realize that.

I see how shimming affects action though--If action is the distance between string and neck, this distance with relief has different values at different frets, therefore you will usually refer to the collective measurements as the "action". Shimming changes the body to neck angle, which in a sense does modify the action. But I guess the bridge can do this too.

As far as misconceptions about relief, I can see what OSA means here:

The neck is constrained from moving at the heel. It is attached to the body. When people are drawing relief, they are bowing the neck at both ends, which can't happen.

The way it will look is that the neck will be attached as in the top figure and the relief will cause the angle to progessively change from 0deg relative to the body and increase in a clockwise manner as you move to the headstock.

After a slow morning at work this is almost too much for my brain right now.

[D'Mule]

And adding relief is EXACTLY how you solve fretting out on the frets near the heel, assuming of course, that everything is level.

You've got this totally bac-Asswards again (assuming my reading comprehension is acceptable)!

Adding more relief to a neck is the best way to make it fret out at the heel when playing in the middle of the neck, because you always have to compensate for excessive neck relief by dropping the bridge (or shimming up the back end of the neck). Adding relief is only good to avoid fretting out at open cords at the headstock.

[Deadwood Jack]

Generally speaking, when you find that one person isn't getting you, it might be his fault. But if several people are repeatedly not getting you, the fault is probably your own.

[alanfc]

I subscribed to this thread but restrained myself from posting, so now I can't hold back... can you help diagnose me ?
One is a white 1990 MIM with Maple fretboard, which plays buzz free everywhere, strings ring freely, like a dream.
THe other one is the black 2003 MIM which buzzes like mad everywhere. But no fretting out anywhere either.

I don't know the relevant measurements that may help describe these 2 but, the frets on the WHITE buzz-free one are smooth and perfect and measure 2/32" in width, action at 4/64 every string. String height at the 1st fret is 3/64"

The BLACK buzzy one, frets are newer and 3/32" wide, action at 5/64 everywhere. String height at the 1st fret is 3/64" too.

Here trying to show the relief, with which a .010 guitar string passes just barely, under both low E strings at the 7th fret (capo 1st fret, holding down fret where body meets neck) But the white one looks different from the Black one for sure:

Black
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...lkline0713.jpg

white
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...htline0713.jpg

I don't know if relief is the issue here. I don't know if the white buzz-free one has a shim. I know the Black one does not. The strings seem to radically rise high off the fretboard on their way to the body don't they? Is that right?

At one point I had tightened the truss on the buzzy one 1/8 turn, the neck seemed a little straighter but buzzing madly still. So after reading this and other posts, I put it back to the way it was when it got its first (and only) pro setup over 2 yrs. ago.

I love the Rosewood on the black one. THe maple on the white one gives me floor burns ! But its a 1000x easier to play.

any diagnoses?
THANKS

[Wilko]

Yes, the black one appears to have a lot of relief. (as much as I can say from that photo and your description.

[alanfc]

Yes, the black one appears to have a lot of relief. (as much as I can say from that photo and your description.

OK thanks.
This might be the thing that makes me go back to .011's!
(from .010's). If the .011's will sling the neck back a bit harder.

I like the tone of the .011's better, plus there's more string to grab and push and its a bit easier to play. Come to think of it I don't remember having this buzz everywhere when I had .011's on there. I may be wrong/wishful thinking. I'm also chicken to take off the neck and do the truss properly. When I made the 1/8 turn before, that was with the strings and pickguard off and taking advantage of this little space I was able to fit a flathead screwdriver into.
Does everyone else's have such a radical rise in string height from the nut going toward the body? Or is that an optical illusion.
Thanks alot

[boobtube21]

+1 what Wilko said. I say give that truss rod a 1/4 turn, re-adjust the action and see what you get.

The rise in height from the nut to body is normal, but obviously exaggerated in your photo. Hard to say if yours is excessive, it's all in what you prefer.

This is how I set my truss rod, seems to have worked on both my strats, YMMV:

1.Fret the big E string at the first fret, and at the fret where it joins the body at the same time.
2.Now look at the clearance between that string and, say, the 6th or 7th fret. I usually tap the string against the fret a few times and look and listen for clearance (yes, listen for clearance, you like that one don't you).

I like it where the string is just barely above the fret, where you think it may be touching already but you can faintly hear it hitting when you tap. That seems to be the sweet spot for both of my strats, again YMMV.

Funny enough, in spite of what the original poster in this thread said about being used to Gibsons, I couldn't get the setup right on my 335 for the life of me...

[Wilko]

heavier strings will make the neck relieve even more. Tightening the trussrod is what holds it straight.

[alanfc]

OK thanks guys, Wilko I must have been thinking the opposite/backwards. Thinking I needed =more= curve
So we;ll keep the .010's for now,
and Off with the neck for a 1/4 turn tighter mommy

[buddastrat]

I just wanted to reiterate how everyone prefers a certain setup and ideally it should be the player who does it.

My example is I just played my buddy's guitar that he had a new nut, fret level and setup by none other than Dan Erlewine. The best there is. Well, the action was way too low and the neck too straight for what I like. Even my friend told him that he liked the action a bit higher. He wants it a bit higher now. I'm sure Dan will hook him up. But I told him, he should just do it himself.

Right now, it has a 7.25" radius and plays very low, so low for a vintage radius, but there is some fret rattle here and there on the bass strings. That puzzled me. Some guys say oh you won't hear it through the amp, but I sure do. It makes the overdrive sound real ratty.

Maybe some guys like that buzz. Listen to the opening of Sweet Home Alabama and you can hear that fret buzz. It bugs me everytime I hear that. Sounds like a cheap guitar!

[Hobo]

The infamous fret buzz on Sweet Home Alabama intro.
That's how you know it was a Strat used on that song.

[alanfc]

OK thanks guys, Wilko I must have been thinking the opposite/backwards. Thinking I needed =more= curve
So we;ll keep the .010's for now,
and Off with the neck for a 1/4 turn tighter mommy

This is done.
(anyone know where I can find a replacement neck for a 2003 Vintage Players Strat?)










.





ha ha everythings fine.
AND
I looked up sources on SRV's setup and dared myself to work with his "high action" but it looked like I was already mostly there (5/64" on the high E, 7/64" on the low E) I actually got the low end buzz free at 6/64 so I kept it.
And one other thing I did thats made a huge difference ,,,, the radius gauge from my Erlewine book, and uh actually =reading= the section on bridge saddle setup. Sheesh this Black guitar now sounds big and just fantastic. I know now, for a fact, that the buzz everywhere was affecting my overdriven tones,,, that sort of hashy muddy sound.
Yay Me

[buddastrat]

The infamous fret buzz on Sweet Home Alabama intro.
That's how you know it was a Strat used on that song.

I dunno, I think I could tell by the sound of the guitar's tone, not the fret buzz.
when it's rattling, it sounds like a beginner playing it and not fretting properly.