Strat set-up -- what am I missing?

[bluespckr]

I mean, I can do basic setups, but I guess I've been a Gibson guy for so long, that I'm chasing my tail when it comes to a Strat.

I tried following Fender's instructions, and looked at Erlewine's setup books. I've got the thing so I can play it, but I know it can be better.

First -- it's an EC Strat, and the trem is blocked. I don't use the trem at all. The bridge is flat to the body, all five springs are in, and the claw is tightened. I would prefer to leave it like this.

When I adjust the bridge saddle height and stuff according to the numbers recommended by Fender, it -- the guitar --- certainly plays easy, but there's quite a bit of string buzz of the frets. Well, more than just a "bit". Yes, I've checked the neck, and tweaked the rod a bit, and that seems to be about right, but ...

I find myself having to raise the string saddles up -- especially the heavier side -- E-A-D -- quite a bit to stop the buzzing. If I don't, that heavy E string buzzes from the 12th to the last fret (closest to the PUPs).

I use regular 10-46 strings. The next stop is a tech in a neighboring town, if I can't get this myself. I mean, it plays great -- but I know it's nowhere near where it could and should be, and it's frustrating the b'Jesus out of me.

Any help or suggestion from anyone who has chased the tail on these, like I'm doing now, would be helpful.

[bluespckr]

First of all, forget numbers. The're just a guide, not a target. Every guitar needs something different, and every player is different. Where's the fret slap coming from? The upper frets? Then shim the neck a little bit.

http://www.thefenderforum.com/forum/...ad.php?t=32703

By "upper fets" you mean the 12th, 15th, to the 20-something fret, that's where it's at, and mostly the E-A-D strings.

[cooltone]

sounds like maybe a tad bit of relief in your neck (loosen the truss rod about 1/8th turn) might be needed.

[cdw2000]

Actually, he may have too much relief in the neck. I would tighten the truss rod a bit.

Assuming the frets are properly leveled, buzzing in the lower frets with excessively high action would be indicative of not enough relief. Buzzing in the upper frets indicates too much relief.

[rudutch]

Raise 'em till they just stop buzzing, them measure the string height at the 17th fret. I can better advise after this.

Thx

[bluespckr]

Raise 'em till they just stop buzzing, them measure the string height at the 17th fret. I can better advise after this.

Thx

Well, it's going to sound messed up (which it is) but ...
(OPEN)
E -- 8/64
A -- 7/64
D -- 7/64
G -- 5/64
B -- 4.5/64
E -- 5/64

(FRETTED AT R\THE FIRST)
E -- 7/64
A -- 5.5/64
D -- 5/64
G -- 5/64
B -- 3/64
E -- 4/64

[buddastrat]

I'm with Fezz. shimming does a lot more than some people think. It really changes the whole feel of the guitar. On some strats I'll notice that the low E will run the length of the neck with a similar action, and those seem to sound more ratty on the upper frets. Other strats have higher action and you look towards the nut it gradually gets lower. that's how I like my strats.

You can do a lot with the saddles to, but there's something with the whole relationship with the neck angle and saddles. I don't get the whole geometry of it, but through experimenting you can find a great balance. It just sucks to keep taking the neck on and off.

[denwing]

This interests me because I finally got to play an EC strat at a GC and this thing buzzed up & down the entire board. Horrible. It was a disappointment because it was the only one Ive had a chance to play. I tried some other signature series strats & they were better but still had lots of buzz. I'm not a fender owner.. lookinjg for my
first ... and would like to know if this is what Im going to run into all the time as I drive around searching for the right one? Doesnt Fender set them up at the factory?

[bluespckr]

This interests me because I finally got to play an EC strat at a GC and this thing buzzed up & down the entire board. Horrible. It was a disappointment because it was the only one Ive had a chance to play. I tried some other signature series strats & they were better but still had lots of buzz. I'm not a fender owner.. lookinjg for my
first ... and would like to know if this is what Im going to run into all the time as I drive around searching for the right one? Doesnt Fender set them up at the factory?

I don't think so -- it's just a matter of finding that balance. I've had a MIM Cray Strat that was great, but if memory serves me right, I upped the bridge on that, too. My problem is that I'm used to adjusting guitars like Les Pauls -- Strats have always been a bit more troublesome for me -- but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The EC Strat is a good -- really good guitar. And it is playable for me as-is; I just want to get it as good as I can

For the record, I don't like to have the strings slapping off the fretboard, either. I'm not a shredder, and I do like to feel the strings a bit under my fingers, so I can stand a little higher action than a shredder would.

Anyway, I'll keep checking in for ideas.

[AlienQuiksilver]

sounds like the same issues I have with my EJ strat. It really sucks getting "there," but once you find balance everything is great! The humidity is going up, so it's not going to be easy for you.

It sounds like you know your way around a guitar, LP or not. I wouldn't worry. Just keep at it every couple days and you're sure to find that sweet spot.

My 60th anniv. was perfect when i purchased it, but over the months it has developed some minor fret rattles that I can't tweak out. It may need a fret job, or to be sold ...

[precbs]

...It sounds like you know your way around a guitar, LP or not. I wouldn't worry. Just keep at it every couple days and you're sure to find that sweet spot.

The point about "every couple days" is a GREAT one. I personally do minor rod adustments of only a half a turn, then let the instrument sit tight. The wood may shift over a day's rest. You can give yourself a break too!

Anyway, if you can't get a satisfactory setup with the approaches you are taking, I agree that a shim in the neck pocket will probably take care of the issue. Provided everything is proper with the neck relief, the saddles can only go so far in either direction. I suggest you try a setting of .010" relief at the 7th fret first to see how the saddles work at this general adjustment. Also when you take your relief reading, be sure you have a capo installed at the first fret (not to tight) and the guitar is in playing position to be sure you get an accurate measurement.

If you still can't get a go, a good guitar tech will be able to install a shim for you and give you a fighting chance! Heck it sure is a pain when we spend more time setting up our guitar and less time playing 'em. Going from Gibson to a Strat in terms of setting up - I hear you. I am in the same boat.

[buddastrat]

This interests me because I finally got to play an EC strat at a GC and this thing buzzed up & down the entire board. Horrible. It was a disappointment because it was the only one Ive had a chance to play. I tried some other signature series strats & they were better but still had lots of buzz. I'm not a fender owner.. lookinjg for my
first ... and would like to know if this is what Im going to run into all the time as I drive around searching for the right one? Doesnt Fender set them up at the factory?

I played an SRV like that once. It was buzzy everywhere even with a high action and proper neck relief. Neck angle looked good to me, but it was probably a bad fret level. Or no level. It was awful and it was a new guitar.

[sliding-tom]

Anyone considered "Stratitis"?

[javlib]

The only thing you're missing is; getting the right neck to body angle, which is done with the shim (like Fezz said) taking the measurements (like RUDUTCH asked for) will tell you which direction you need to go. After the proper shim, you'll probably find that you won't need quite as much relief in the neck as you did before.

[Offshore Angler]

Can you hear it through the amp?

[bluespckr]

Can you hear it through the amp?

Well, I could, until I cranked up the bridge saddles.

I did manage to tweak the rod -- again -- this afternoon, as precbs suggested above, and it seems I hit the .010 mark, and it's holding. And without any real buzzing. I'll let is sit there a bit and see how it goes.

It might be humid down south, but it's been pretty dry here in this part of New England. There were a couple days last week when the relative humidy was about 17 percent in and around Boston. This will doubtless change beginning tomorrow, when some 80-ish temps come in.

Still, I might finally be getting this geeter on track. Maybe I'm just anal. Regardless, I certainly won't be selling this girl off because of it. It's one hell of a player that hasn't been played much by its previous owners.

Thanks for all your help guys. I'm sure I can still fine-tune this guitar a bit more, but I think she's on her way to where I want it.

[rudutch]

.010 neck relief is my preference, if this does not 'cure' it, I am afraid neck shim is next.
I had a MIJ squire strat that would not cooperate with similar issues,
I hope yours shapes up.

Don't suppose it has a 'micro-tilt'??? ( a fine innovation)

[bluespckr]

.010 neck relief is my preference, if this does not 'cure' it, I am afraid neck shim is next.
I had a MIJ squire strat that would not cooperate with similar issues,
I hope yours shapes up.

Don't suppose it has a 'micro-tilt'??? ( a fine innovation)

In fact, it does, but won't this actually tilt it UP at the end where the neck meets the body, rather than at the heel end further from the body? I don't think I want to lift the end at the 20-something fret.

But for now, it seems to be doing okay.

[Sixpense]

I use .11s on my strats and had a similar problem with my 1958 custom shop strat. The truss rod needs to be adjusted.

[rudutch]

Have you seen / read this?

Shimming/Micro-Tilt™ Adjustment

Shimming is a procedure used to adjust the pitch of the neck in relation to the body. A shim is placed in the neck pocket, underneath the butt-end of the neck. On many of the American series guitars, a Micro-Tilt adjustment is offered. It replaces the need for a shim by using a hex screw against a plate installed in the butt-end of the neck. The need to adjust the pitch (raising the butt-end of the neck in the pocket, thereby pitching the neck back) of the neck occurs in situations where the string height is high and the action adjustment is as low as the adjustment will allow.

To properly shim a neck the neck needs to be removed from the neck pocket of the body. A shim approximately 1/4" (6.4 mm) wide x 1 3/4" (44.5 mm) long x .010" (0.25 mm) thick will allow you to raise the action approximately 1/32" (0.8 mm). For those guitars with the Micro-Tilt adjustment, loosen the two neck screws on both sides of the adjustment access hole on the neckplate by at least 4 full turns. Tightening the hex adjustment screw with an 1/8" hex wrench approximately 1/4 turn will allow you to raise the action approximately 1/32". Retighten the neck screws when the adjustment is complete. The pitch of the neck on your guitar has been preset at the factory and in most cases will not need to be adjusted. Note: If you feel you need this adjustment to be made and you're not comfortable with the procedure, take your guitar to your authorized Fender Service Center.

[lpstandard23]

I played an SRV like that once. It was buzzy everywhere even with a high action and proper neck relief. Neck angle looked good to me, but it was probably a bad fret level. Or no level. It was awful and it was a new guitar.

well it could be that but what i kno is that it is a copy strat and since srv did indeed use bass frets they were probably trying to re create the big high frets.

[Hobo]

The Micro-Tilt is your friend. Use it. You'll be amazed.

[Wilko]

As much as I like shimming, it won't change the relationship of the strings to the neck. It will allow you to raise your saddles to get your strings higher off the body while keeping low action.

Here's a drawing (done with a tele, but shows the relationship) On both necks the action is exactly the same:


Neck reflief is most important factor for a strat. Too much relief will cause the strings to hit the higher area of the neck AND (Huge AND) will cause the neck to "give" during string action allowing them to feel rubbery and slap the frets.

For me, strats almost always play better with little to no relief. Some guys like to dig in with loud chords and such. Relief can be great there.

Oh, and lower that neck pickup some. Stratitis is real.

[buddastrat]

Great diagram Wilko. But I find strats to sound better with a good amount of relief. Fuller with more ring.

And I've read where the strats sound better when the strings are further from the body like in the 2nd pic. I'm going to do some experimenting with that. I have this strat where the saddles are up but the low E string action rides very even along the whole neck. I don't like that. Also the strings are very close to the body. The guitar is very much like the top one in the diagram.


what I want to accomplish is where the low E is lower action down by the nut and action gets progressively higher. I also want the strings further from the body. Shimming from the top of the body? What do you think is the best way to get this balance?

[Wilko]

Seems to me like you want a straight neck and a shim like the bottom picture. That's the setup I use for all my Fenders and gets great results.

The reason reflief is bad (for me, and many others) is that once you get past the middle of the curve, the strings are now too close to the frets and you don't have as much angle above the fretting point.

Here's a drawing (exaggerated) that show's the effect of relief on possible action:

[buddastrat]

See neither of those work. But I'll try a straight neck with angle like you suggest. But is it common to shim at the top two bolts? I only see shims on the bottom of the neck pocket. Anyhow, when the action graduates down to the nut, that's the way all the good strats seem to sound to me. They're less buzzy/ratty that way.

The top pick is what my strat is now, and I hate that. The EJ's that I've owned were like that too. Action consistent all the way up and down and even if there's no buzz, it seems to choke some tone, like the string can't move enough.

[Offshore Angler]

bluespkr, it seems that most people when they bring home a new guitar are relucant to really go at it with the setup. As time wears on and the newness wears off, they're unbolting the neck, adding shims and generally having a fun time with it. Not having seen or played th guitar, it's hard to know for sure, but I think fezz's advice about shimming the front of the neck is your best bet. I've always marvelled at the micro-tilt. Never have I seen a Strat that needs the heel raised like a micro-tilt will do, but often I've seen them need the other end raised. In any case, just keep experiming and you'll eventually find the sweet spot for that guitar.

Another thing, guitars like LP's can be totally free of any string slap, but Fenders seem to always have some. It's just what they do and you'll learn to embrace it.

[buddastrat]

Offshore, the microtilt allows angle both ways. If they route the neck pocket with the microtilit in mind, loosening or tightening should give either angle, no?

[JAM]

buddastrat,

Both my Strats needed the angle changed in order to get the saddles higher. The microtilt worked great for that.

But I find strats to sound better with a good amount of relief. Fuller with more ring.

I used to think that too. But now feel it's a lack of highs giving that illusion along with some muddiness. Try the suggestions here, I think you'll find the Strat sounds a lot better.

[D'Mule]

I think if you are playing rhythm or finger picking around chords at the open end, a bit of relief is a nice idea.

For lead work centered around the 12th fret, a straight neck works best for me to get the strings off the heel of the fingerboard a bit.

So I think it depends on your playing style. I also agree with the impression that a Strat with low action used for lead work tends to have a bit more buzzing going on.

[Hobo]

Everybody has thier preference. I like a straight neck with as little relief as possible.
I did the same as Jam, I adjusted my micro-tilt to raise my bridge saddles. Worked perfect.

[buddastrat]

buddastrat,

Both my Strats needed the angle changed in order to get the saddles higher. The microtilt worked great for that.



I used to think that too. But now feel it's a lack of highs giving that illusion along with some muddiness. Try the suggestions here, I think you'll find the Strat sounds a lot better.

I'll do that JAM, thanks. But I tend to use a higher action than most guys here probably do. I hate even the slightest string rattle, even when only heard acoustically. I want to be able to really hit those strings extremely hard with a thick pick and not hear anything but a full, open ring. So that's why I've usually preferred a good amount of relief.

Whenever I play a neck that has very little relief, there's the infamous string rattle. But I'll try shimming the neck and raising the saddles more. I'm just wondering that I may be increasing break angle at the bridge by raising the saddles real high, and this would then make the guitar stiffer feeling.

[Jack Gilvey]

Any luck with the shimming, Paul?

My Deluxe Player's strat has been feeling very stiff. I've got .11's tuned to Eb, .010mm relief, and action ~2mm. It was stiff with .10s, too. From what I've picked up this could be due to the fact that my saddles are very high, and that shimming the headstock-end of the pocket will raise the action allowing me to lower my saddles.

Sound good?

[Offshore Angler]

Offshore, the microtilt allows angle both ways. If they route the neck pocket with the microtilit in mind, loosening or tightening should give either angle, no?

I always pull the micro-tilt screws out. I've had them come loose and become the source of those mystery buzzes that drive you crazy. Can't count the Fenders I've seen with the neck all the way down and the microtilt screw loose in there. I'll takes a shim over a screw any day.

[Deadwood Jack]

[QUOTE=Wilko;422543]As much as I like shimming, it won't change the relationship of the strings to the neck. It will allow you to raise your saddles to get your strings higher off the body while keeping low action.QUOTE]
Yes, Wilko is right, reminds me of people who say they like the "out of phase" positions 2 n 4 They're not out of phase and shimming does only what Wilko said. You only have to think about it, you'll still need to get the action playable, so the only thing that changes with shimming is the height of the strings off the body.
Assuming the frets are dressed correctly, and the neck is good, you really only need to have the smallest amout ( if any ) of relief. The action at the nut and the bridge will do the rest.
I make my own guitars and when I make a neck, be it a strat or whatever, I always make it with a good deal of "fall away" This will ensure that you don't have any dramas up the top of the neck. Those unfortunates that only have the factory necks will have to make do with a good fret dress and the proper action height not only at the bridge but at the nut as well. It's a simple thing to do if you know how, if you don't, find someone who does and maybe you can watch them and learn the basics of it all. It's not that complicated when you know how. Sorry if I'm comming across as a know it all but there is a lot of half ass info floating around. I just couldn't resist.

[Hobo]

When I bought my Strat it was strung with 11s (I like 9s), had very high action and the neck had a big bow in it.
I did a complete setup including truss rod and Micro Tilt adjustment.

I still had a few spots on my neck where the notes would choke when bending.

Took it in for a partial fret dress and problem solved. Now I have low action without any dead notes.

Best $40 I've ever spent.

[Jack Gilvey]

My Deluxe Player's strat has been feeling very stiff. I've got .11's tuned to Eb, .010mm relief, and action ~2mm. It was stiff with .10s, too. From what I've picked up this could be due to the fact that my saddles are very high, and that shimming the headstock-end of the pocket will raise the action allowing me to lower my saddles.

I wound up going ahead with this and the effect on tension is quite dramatic. I wanted to lower the saddles to decrease break angle at the bridge. A small sliver of credit card between the screws and the back edge of the route allowed me to lower the saddles quite a bit (for the same setup as previous, ~2mm action and .010mm relief) and the strat is much fuller,looser, and twangier now. Whereas before the shim the back of my trem floated 3mm above the body, it's now almost flush all else equal, showing how much leverage the springs have gained over the looser strings. Worked like a charm.

[Offshore Angler]

[quote=Deadwood Jack;424744]

As much as I like shimming, it won't change the relationship of the strings to the neck. It will allow you to raise your saddles to get your strings higher off the body while keeping low action.QUOTE]
Yes, Wilko is right, reminds me of people who say they like the "out of phase" positions 2 n 4 They're not out of phase and shimming does only what Wilko said. You only have to think about it, you'll still need to get the action playable, so the only thing that changes with shimming is the height of the strings off the body.

Uh, next time you want to put in rolling eyes and drunk emoticons and what not, and be sarcastic, and then give advice...


learn what the hell you are talking about.

Shimming changes the neck angle to the body. The whole point of a shim is to alter the action on the neck.


Wilco's first example makes an assumption that the action will stay the same after the shim. Not the case. A shim allows neck relief, and eliminates the problem shown in the bottom figure in post #27. Or for some players, it allows the action to get higher closer to the heel which is another preferred Strat setup.

Wilco's first post shows what we would do if the saddles where all the way down and the action was still too high, which doesn't happen very often. More often, the shim is in the front, allowing the action around the 12th to be correct with good relief and the saddles at a nominal height.

Sheesh!

And from the Captain Obvious file - if you want a guitar with super low buttery smooth action - don't by a Strat - that's not their bag.

(Wilco, sorry in advance if I misinterpreted your illustrations - OSA)

[Wilko]

Sorry OSA, Deadwood is right about part. A shim alone won't change the relationship of the strings to the neck. What you're adding is only applicable with a relief, and even so, the shim isn't changing the relationship of string to neck, the relief is. My Illustration doesn't make the assumption that action will stay the same, it shows that even with a shim, the action will be the same after you move your saddles. Many assume that action can be set different because of a shim. That's not true.

It's very simple as my illustrations show. If you alter the shape of the neck by adding relief, you may need to shim allow the bridge to be where you want it to be.

My illustration of a neck with too much relief can't be fixed by shimming, it clearly shows why notes will be choked off.

Oh, and Deadwood, Most modern strats (Since about 1977) ARE out of phase in 2 and 4 because they changed to RWRP on the middle pickup. Even most of the reissues are wired that way, too.

[Offshore Angler]

OK, Wilco, we're approaching the same thing from different directions, that's all.

Shimming, ultimately, sets the saddle heigth and thus string-to-body dimension for a specific action. Guys like you and me that have made these adjustments ad-nauseum get the whole deal. I just jerked my knee at the previous poster who obviously has no concept of what's going on.

Most people I set a Strat up for like about .011" relief and a shim such that the action gradually increases up to about the 12th, and then stays constant past it. I have done some straight but could never come to grips with playing them that way myself. Mostly shredders and jazzbos want that setup from my experience.