"That" Fender sound.

[NTBluesGuitar]

Quick poll for y'all.

My guitar teacher and I recently chatted about gear. He plays a Blues Junior currently mainly because of the size and sound package. He did have a BF Super Reverb for awhile, but it got to the point where it was too big for his needs and he downsized.

Considering he's mainly using it for teaching and small-group stuff (various genres, but jazz-centric), what would be the most compact, classic amp (hand-wired, kit-built or original) that nails "that Fender sound"

A Champ is the most obvious choice for portability, but it might be a little too dirty for him (although I love my clone). He did say Princeton a few times, but there are various flavors of that.

My initial thoughts were BF Princeton Reverb. Again, thinking no bigger than Blues Junior, what would y'all suggest? Brown Princeton (narrow-panel tweed is too big)? BF, non-reverb Princeton? Thoughts? Advice?

[ampdan]

A BF Princeton Reverb certainly has "That" Fender sound, but so does every BF Fender amp with reverb.

[Don]

I think a Princeton Reverb is the smallest amp with the type of sound he's looking for.
A Deluxe Reverb and Vibrolux Reverb are more full and lush sounding and are still portable.

[Kap'n]

If "that" Fender sound includes reverb, than any of the BF amps with reverb will give it. The rest is just preference.

There are plenty of other classic Fender sounds, though. Tweed Bassman, Super/Pro/Bandmaster, Deluxe, Champ....

And we still haven't hit on the brown panels.

[NTBluesGuitar]

Reverb is not necessary. For this choice, it's about small size and 'that' sound. My teacher was the one stressing 'that Fender sound' during the discussion.

I did elaborate on Tweed vs. Blackface some.

[Rickenjangle]

I think that the BFPR or SFPR would be a better choice than, say, a brown Princeton, since the blackface ones seem to stay clean longer. I think it's a great little amp, and would be in my top 2 or 3 small combos. I had a great little SFP (no reverb) that sounded pretty darned good, and the PR's sound even better.

[Kap'n]

Reverb is not necessary. For this choice, it's about small size and 'that' sound. My teacher was the one stressing 'that Fender sound' during the discussion.

I did elaborate on Tweed vs. Blackface some.

I'm still confused. Since a Princeton reverb and a tweed deluxe sound no closer than each other than a blue check Ampeg sounds like a Hiwatt, yet both are classic Fender sounds.

Methinks he's listening with his eyes.

[NTBluesGuitar]

I wouldn't say he's listening with his eyes, he's a graduate student at UNT and can play just about anything.

I would agree with you as far as the difficulty settling on something between Tweed or BF. He isn't very experienced with Tweeds. My guess is he likes the BF sound, based off what we talked about. He may like the option of some nice dirt in the sound, but primarily it would be the cleans.

Of course, there's cathode bias sound vs. fixed bias, too.

In the end, my understanding is "A classic Fender sound" in nothing bigger/heavier than the Blues Deluxe. If Brown Princeton or BF (non-reverb) Princeton both fit the bill, then I'll be all that closer to offering a concrete suggestion.

Sorry this is confusing.

[Don]

My understanding was that this would be a blackface duscussion because a BFSR was mentioned.

As far as most folks are concerned, blackface is the traditional Fender sound. Most players haven't gotten to the point that they've even considered a tweed amp.

[Gtrplyr]

Also using the BFSR as a reference point I would also suggest a BF or SF Princeton Reverb. It's got some nice crunch when pushed which a non-verb Princeton won't have.

The Brown Fenders really have a different sound and I was amazed at what I was missing when I finally bought one. Same go for the tweeds. They both have a very different voice from the BF & SF Fender amps. All could be considered The Fender Sound though.

So anyway I'm sticking with my vote for a Princeton Reverb!

[NTBluesGuitar]

Thanks, gang.

Looks like BF is the way to go for this one. Just need to settle on size and whether or not to have reverb.

Of course, I'll be bringing my Tweed Champ clone for him to try someday, so he may rethink that, too.

[MMP]

79 Princeton Reverb w/added mid control in the second input hole.
It was already there when I purchased this amp. I just never found a good reason to remove it. Very giggable, recordable and very Fender sounding.

[JAM]

If he's used to a BFSR, then "that" Fender sound in a small package is a Princeton Reverb, BF or SF. I would mod it for a 12" speaker.

[greentone]

How about a nice Deluxe Reverb? I have tried to like Princetons, but they just don't have enough to be a workhorse amp.

[jrgtr42]

um...out of curiosity, what's wrong with the Blues Jr? Did he specifically say he didn;t like it? Is he playing out with it?
If he's mostly using it in teaching, it seems to me it hardly matters what it sounds like, as long as it makes some sort of sound...
for home playing, and gigging, maybe it's a different story, but you don't really want to blow some beginner kid out the door with something too big, not to mention you need to be able to hear that kid while playing along as well.

[Fripperton]

Think of the BFPR as 1/4 of a BFSR and you're there. One 10" at 12 watts compared to four 10s at 40 watts.

[Rickenjangle]

um...out of curiosity, what's wrong with the Blues Jr? Did he specifically say he didn;t like it? Is he playing out with it?
If he's mostly using it in teaching, it seems to me it hardly matters what it sounds like, as long as it makes some sort of sound...
for home playing, and gigging, maybe it's a different story, but you don't really want to blow some beginner kid out the door with something too big, not to mention you need to be able to hear that kid while playing along as well.

Though there are a lot of pundits on here who praise the Blues Jr., and I myself use one at practice, and it works great for what it is, I wouldn't characterise its sound as the classic Fender tone. The classic Fender clean in a small package is definitely the Princeton Reverb. Or, slightly more power, the Deluxe Reverb. The Blues Jr. is closer to a Peavey Classic 20 in terms of sound, and the reverb, which is generally a part of the classic Fender clean sound, is lacking depth on some vintages of the blues Jr.

[NTBluesGuitar]

um...out of curiosity, what's wrong with the Blues Jr? Did he specifically say he didn;t like it?

Nothing wrong with it. He likes it. It's more like he's on the search for a small amp with "that" sound. And it's not like he's on a search, really. Just always on the lookout for something good.

Is he playing out with it?

I doubt it, but I can ask. His last gig was doing the flamenco guitar work for a play in Ft. Worth. Like I said, he plays anything.

If he's mostly using it in teaching, it seems to me it hardly matters what it sounds like, as long as it makes some sort of sound...

He has an old Fender Sidekick 15 for the basic "haul around something small that makes sound"

Rudy Van Gelder's house amp was a tweed Deluxe.

As much as I love that amp, it's not really 'him'. Plus, it's too big. The whole goal is no bigger/heavier than the Blues Junior.

[ES350]

and Tal's 50's amp was a cathode biased tweed Pro...ditto Jimmy Bryant. A clean tweed tone is something to be reckoned with...

[NTBluesGuitar]

Too big?

I know it sounds crazy, and I know the 5E3 is not big at all, but he mentioned SMALLER than the BJr. Or maybe lighter? I wonder how the 5E3 is in weight, compared with the BJr?

He did have a Super Reverb and he loved it. But I guess he's more mobile now.

[NTBluesGuitar]

Good call, I didn't think of that.

How clean is the Pro Jr. compared with a Tweed Champ?

[NTBluesGuitar]

Great advice.

He'll at least get a chance to try my 5F1, too (I finger-jointed the lumber for the cab last night ). So maybe I'll sell him on a tweed.

[tugboat]

I'm biased.

Are you biased hot or cold?

I'm so easily amused...

[Rickenjangle]

Just cathode biased. So I'm a little of both.

But do you ever get any negative feedback?

[NeoFauve]

Watch out.
He's gonna go uke-ular!

[Don]

If a Tweed Deluxe was good enough for Wes Montgomery and anyone else who recorded at Van Gelder's for Blue Note, it should be good enough for the teach.

Seriously?

I love those Van Gelder Blue Note Recordings. Burrell and Montgomery are my favorites.

Now I'm realy excited.

[jeffhoo]

I know it sounds crazy, and I know the 5E3 is not big at all, but he mentioned SMALLER than the BJr. Or maybe lighter? I wonder how the 5E3 is in weight, compared with the BJr?

He did have a Super Reverb and he loved it. But I guess he's more mobile now.

i looked on the fender field amp guide and it has the 5E3 tweed deluxe narrow panel as 25lbs. i just got a clark beaufort and it's about that. lightest amp in my arsenal save for the '66 vibrochamp and the vox AD15VT.

[JAM]

If a Tweed Deluxe was good enough for Wes Montgomery and anyone else who recorded at Van Gelder's for Blue Note, it should be good enough for the teach.

Was it only the Blue Note Stuff? Somehow I dont associate Wes's L-5 sound with a Tweed Deluxe. His sound on the CTI stuff (recorded at Van Gelders) is absolute clean. My L-5 sounds like crap through my SFSR, but I can nail his tone with my S1000 (playing with my thumb).

[ziess]

Rudy Van Gelder's house amp was a tweed Deluxe.

Fezz man, are you on commision from Weber?!
Everything you seem to say at the moment just pushes me closer and closer to the 5E3!

Van Gelder's records are my favourite recordings ever.
Dammit!

Tommy.

[Kap'n]

Fezz man, are you on commision from Weber?!

No, that's me. ;-)

Fezz likes the basic kits, but likes other speakers and transformers. Ted's kits are an amazing value as a package, even if you throw away the stuff you might want to replace. Unless you're either a screw counter, or an audiophool.

And in the interest of full disclosure, Ted's been a good friend of mine since before he started making speakers.

[JAM]

Tweeds can be wonderfully clean. Here's my take on that sound: Do Not Remove The Cover.

Fat body w P90 types into a tweed Deluxe...

That does sound great. Is this still the same amp that you play in the youtube clip?

[NTBluesGuitar]

Ted's kits are an amazing value as a package, even if you throw away the stuff you might want to replace. Unless you're either a screw counter, or an audiophool.

I'll say that as much biz as Ted does, he will still answer any legitimate question that comes his way.

Even if you're a resistor-sniffer (), his power transformers and Copper Caps are still the best valued components in any of my ideas and designs.

Deep down, Hoosiers are good people (I was one for 11 years). Ted is one of the GOOD good ones.

I've never heard anything bad about his product, and his kits are true to "that" sound.

As an aside, I love how this thread went on it's own little journey. Although, I got the valued opinions I was seeking, I am happy to see that this topic got fun and other related topics were brought up.

So, y'all don't need to worry if you hijack one of my threads. I like to see where things go, after all.

[studio1087]

Try a Pro Jr. Mine is nice and clean up to about 4 which is pretty loud.
I chose the Pro Jr. over the Blues Jr. because I tought it had a warmer rounder classic Fender tone.

I love my Pro Jr. Great little amp.