Originally Posted by StratTone
No, that's what you stated; however, I DO agree that you will sound like you regardless of what you plug into. That is very different from a declarative statement that tone is 'all in the hands.'
You know, FWIW.
No, that's what you stated; however, I DO agree that you will sound like you regardless of what you plug into. That is very different from a declarative statement that tone is 'all in the hands.'
You know, FWIW.
Tone is in the fingers, eh? Let's hear your Vox, Marshall and Fender fingerings then...
All this yak about what makes a great guitar a great guitar is pure conjecture. There is no science being applied here, and saying that your own perception is some kind of proof is the most laughable statement a monkey can make (ask any criminal lawyer, and they'll tell you that eye-witness testimony is the most suspect of evidence).
Trying to bolt down the schematic diagram of a great guitar is no different than trying to apprehend the Meaning of Life in This Universe through a religious schematic ("well, you enter here as a Thetan, but once Godhead is happy with you, then you progress into the angel stage..."). Human beings have evolved into "sense-making" machines: if our left brain doesn't get it, our right brain provides an explanation. This is all we do, non-stop, all day long, and when we feel we can't completely explain something we get anxious and start looking for explanations. This goes for big questions (Who Is God?) and little ones (why does this guitar sound better than that one?)
And screw-counting gear snob stuff is like religion: most of it must be taken on faith. The beauty part of a faith-based argument, whether it's about Godhead or guitars, is that nobody needs to prove anything. You just know it's true, and people who doubt you or even attempt to prove you wrong (with puny, literalist arguments about science and so on) can be ignored or pitied (poor suckers, they just haven't achieved this "level" of enlightenment).
So go ahead and believe anything you want about anything. But don't kid yourself that your belief is true or right. If there is no science to support the idea that solid body electric guitars with thinner finishes sound "better," and if you are going to reject any attempt to create that science before it's begun, then you are simply taking it on faith that what you "know" is true.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just be aware. I'm jus' sayin'.
I prefer a Nitro finish over a Poly one, but that's just because I prefer it, not because it's better or worse or sounds any different.
When you get down to it, if finish type affected tone that much, then body shape must really affect the tone. I'm willing to bet that if someone were to hack off the lower horn of a Strat and then continue playing, you'd never "hear" the difference. Likewise, if you played it, then sanded off the finish on the back of the guitar with a beltsander without changing anything else, you'd never "hear" the difference. If some fool came up and spray painted the front of your guitar with Krylon heat resistant Enamel while you were playing it, you'd never "hear" the difference. Those things would certainly alter your perception of the guitar itself and it's value, but as far as hearing a difference in the sounds it generates, they wouldn't mean a thing.
If you look at a Strat's construction, you'll note the pickups are mounted to a piece of plastic, that hopefully sits flat against the body wood, and is screwed down with small wood screws. The pickups are sensing the variations of the electromagnetic field as the strings vibrate over the magnetic coils. This generates a voltage that is passed on to the volume/tone circuit, then to the amp. The mechanical things that can affect tone are the things that directly affect the way the strings vibrate. The most dramatic changes are generated by the fingers of the player. If you were to give EVH a guitar and let him strike an open E note on that guitar, then pass the guitar to BB King and let him do the same thing, the guitar would sound exactly the same. Yet the two different players would get vastly different sounds out of the same guitar were they to play songs with it. Hence, tone is essentially in the fingers (the player).
Second to the player, things such as strings themselves generate the next most dramatic affect on tone. Heavier strings "warble" less than lighter strings, delivering a fuller, darker, more stable note. Lighter gauge strings are easier to play, don't "slap" against the fretboard near as much when hit hard, and give a thinner overall sound, and with lighter strings it's easier to reach blazing speed (if that's your style).
After that, mounting hardware and nut material are next to affect the tone of an instrument. This includes the bridge saddles, springs (on a tremolo equipped guitar), types of metal used in construction. These things all work to transfer the mechanical acoustic vibrations from the instrument into electrical vibrations that the pickups then convert into electronic voltages.
Beyond that, the wood itself plays some subtle difference. The most common belief is that you'd want a tone wood that resonates acoustically when played, and at an amplitude sufficient enough to generate mechanical vibrations through the other assorted mounting hardware, so it can be transferred to the vibrating strings, to have an effect on the electromagnetic field. Some woods do offer this characteristic more so than others, but the differences are still minimal, and less important than the other factors.
Finally one of the factors of the wood's resonance is the finish applied. The differences are so subtle at this point that they are negligible. Just as negligible as body shape (given the same amount of mass). So long as the finish is applied in such manner as to not dramatically alter the natural mechanical resonance of the wood, the sound won't be affected.
POO DAT!!!
Let's start finishing our guitars with SOILENT GREEN it will definately sound better !!! And I like the way it glows in the dark !!!
That's so laughable, it isn't even worth discussing.
OK guys, conversation over. I get it now. StratTone can hear things I can't, thus, he is right.
I must run out and spend money on a thin skin now. And maybe, if I'm a good boy and practice hard, eat all my peas and carrots and pay close attention to what StratTone says, then someday (if I'm lucky) my ear may develop enough to hear what he hears.
And then, oh, what a joyous day that will be!
Get over yourself, it's embarassing.
A friend in need is a good reason to screen your calls.
If you change all the knobs on your amp to wooden ones it will sound much better, but vintage knobs (old wood) are getting real hard to find these days.
I wonder how much of all this has been helpful, regarding Dan's initial question?
"Well, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..."
Elvis Costello
I think it has proved who can be too damn sardonic.....
Nothin left to do but smile smile smile.....
He's just in that part of his development.
Newbies listen with their eyes and wallets, then everyone gets into the "tone" deal and goes off on every molecule of the guitar and how the carbon14 dating of the wood results will make it sound better, and finally, they reach the master player stage and understand none of it matters. If you like the guitar it will work for you. Half of the stuff I've recorded over the years I can't even tell you what guitar I was using.
If some bedroom jammer wants to tell me I'm full of crap or haven't got a musical ear I'll just compare how much money I've earned playing my guitars to them and that will generally settle the argument.
If anybody thinks the people in the crowd can tell a difference or even cares, I just walk away. A good musician plays for the audience, not their own internal tone quest. My personal experience - and yes, yours may vary, has been that cats that spend hours lying awake worrying about tone spend too much time listening to themselves when they play, and not the band, and those guys tend not to last too long with me.
OA
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
Im not gonna dis anyones playing ability but I do know 1 simple fact.
A good guitar player Insert your fav here SRV Jimi EJ Vai etc can pickup any guitar and I do mean any playable guitar and make it sound really good.
Its the same as a painter.
There isnt much difference in the paint brush Picasso used and what Monet used but they both produced great art with pretty much the same stuff a paint brush some paint and a canvas.
A guitar makes no sound on its own takes someone to play it.
Chet Atkins has a great quote on this. Someone saw him play and said wow that guitar really sounds good. Chet set the guitar face down on the chair and said how does it sound now???
There's no such thing as too damn sardonic.
A friend in need is a good reason to screen your calls.
This thread is dumb. To sum tone up, whatever works for YOU! Your audience is drunk and can't tell the difference between a 57 Strat going through a tweed bassman and a 1997 MIM running into a pod! Just shut up and play your guitar! If we practiced as much as we argue about stupid stuff like in this thread...
...and on the 8th day, God created the Super Reverb and there was ROCK, and it was GOOD!
I only argue when I'm at work, so I couldn't be practicing anyway.
A friend in need is a good reason to screen your calls.
It's ok, TC. That wasn't really aimed at you anyway!
...and on the 8th day, God created the Super Reverb and there was ROCK, and it was GOOD!
Yeah let's not be STOOPID. Like, if it sounds good don't care what is on it, just play it.Hardly anybody takes their 57 Strat out to play at the local bar these days any hooooo. Sort of reminds me of playing a CS Relic a player spots it a mile away as being a relic and not a real one.The audience says why is the guitar player playing such a junky looking guitar ?? Nitro, Poly, Urethane or Soilent Green on it. whaassss...thr big deal !!! AAAAIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE Soilent Green is people !!!!!
The audience only knows 2 things. Either it sounds good or bad to them.
They have no idea of the guitars name model brand finish or anything else all they know is if they like it.
Nicely put telecast.That's so laughable, it isn't even worth discussing.
OK guys, conversation over. I get it now. StratTone can hear things I can't, thus, he is right.
I must run out and spend money on a thin skin now. And maybe, if I'm a good boy and practice hard, eat all my peas and carrots and pay close attention to what StratTone says, then someday (if I'm lucky) my ear may develop enough to hear what he hears.
And then, oh, what a joyous day that will be!
Get over yourself, it's embarassing.
Peak District, Derbyshire, England
Exactly. This is where lesser players dopn't get it. When they say one tone is better than another they are missing the point completely. There is no such thing as the "prefect tone". Use whatever sounds best.
When you say one guitar sounds better than another - WTF? In what context? What type of music? And on and on.
I've said it once, I've siad it a million times - poeple who are into "tone" usually can't play past an amatuer level and so rather than accept that, they brag about their tone instead of their playing. Not eveyone has the chops and the ears, but gosh darnit- ANYBODY, regardless of how big a hack they are can brag about tone.
OA
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
Tone is in the fingers, eh? Let's hear your Vox, Marshall and Fender fingerings then...
Offshore Angler wrote
We can all prove it. Take a none guitar player as a guinea pig, even somebody who doesn't like much music, and play them a selection of notes and chords. Even an untrained ear will be able to pick out 'sweet' sounding notes, 'dark' sounding chords etc etc. You can carry the test over into different guitars. And pretty well anybody off the street will be able to use enough similar words to describe the same aural/emotional response to a B7 played on a Strat to one played on a Les Paul. The human ear, while not being on the level of a dogs, is still a sophisticated device no matter who it is attached to. I think as guitarists the difference, if it can be called that, is that we are trained to hear more subtleties, and trained enough to have a more defined preference for what sound we like and want to produce.ANYBODY, regardless of how big a hack they are can brag about tone.
Peak District, Derbyshire, England
You are being exactly what you are say "screw counters" are!!! Your basically saying "Im right and your wrong". If you don't want expensive guitars that is fine but don't justify reasons why "we just don't realize that my Custom Shop is no better than a MIM".Give me a break.........
What ever man........... I might as well sell all my guitars because my Squire is just as good as my "thin skins"........
Yes you are right that the audience but you are freaking retarded if you play for someone else.... I only play for my own personal pleasure and no one else's. I play out all the time and play my own tone. Nothing wrong with that.....
I totally agree with you!! But there is nothing wrong with a contractor that likes a certain hammer because it feels better. The player is the most important factor but there are other factors even if they only mesasure up to 5% of the equation.
What part of no personal attacks did you not get?
Take a few days to think it over.
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