Most stupid Strat setup question ever....

[Curt Basner]

I've worked on my Rory Gallagher Strat with respect to tremolo, action (via saddle height adjustment) and intonation, and feel relatively comfortable with those aspects of setup on a Strat.

I have 2 other Strats that I need to work on now, and I've run into something that should be obvious to me, but simply isn't. To start, neither of these has had any setup work done on them, after I've gotten them. I see that on both these Strats, the strings slowly but steadily climb above the fretboard as they travel to the bridge. Here's the question. What would be the preferred method for lowering the action: 1) a shim in the neck pocket, or 2) adjusting the bridge saddles? What would be the advantage of one over the other?

For myself, I'm not that much of a hands on guy, so my preference would be to adjust the saddle height (easier for me than removing the necks and fashioning a shim). Why would this be preferred or not preferred?

It seems to me that EITHER method would get the job done, so, is there a preference? Help a really stupid guy!

[telecast]

You only shim a neck if the action can't be corrected by lowering the saddles. A shim is a fix, a saddle adjustment is part of a set up.

If the saddles are so low the adjustment screws stick out, it may become uncomfortable to rest your hand on the bridge. If that's the case, you can shim.

I don't know what kind of Strats you have, but look at the neck plate(s). Is there a hole located roughly between the two rear neck screws? If so, that's a microtilt adjustment. If you do need to shim, You can loosen the neck screws slightly and insert an allen wrench in the hole and snug it down. It's like a built-in shimming device. Make sure you take string tension off before doing so. Take it a little at a time and check as you go. You ony want enough tilt to correct the action.

[Plugger]

What about truss rod adjustment? Have you simply got too much relief in the neck?

-Mark

[Gris]

If the saddles are so low the adjustment screws stick out, it may become uncomfortable to rest your hand on the bridge. If that's the case, you can shim.

I recently took a new strat (never set up) to a pro set up guy because of a couple of problems including sharp protruding saddle screws that tore up my right pinkie pretty good. After doing neck adjustment, set up and fret work, he ground the tops of the saddles down so they don't stick up so high. He said Fender makes two kinds of saddle screws long and short, no medium. Said he grinds em all the time.

[telecast]

After doing neck adjustment, set up and fret work, he ground the tops of the saddles down so they don't stick up so high.

Assuming you mean the screws and not the saddles, that's not the correct way to do it. The bottom of the screws should be ground, not the tops. Your tech took a shortcut.

And while this is an acceptable method for shortening the screws, it's not the kind of work I'd recommend on the internet for a guy learning how to set up guitars.

[Curt Basner]

Thanks all, for the advice. I've watched all of the Dan Erlewine videos on setup, so I'm pretty knowlegeable on certain things. I've just never seen Dan address my specific question on shim versus saddle adjustment. I wouldn't grind the tops off the saddle height adjusters either, as this is where the holes for adjustment reside; you wouldn't be able to adjust height anymore!

Both necks will need a bit of relief adjustment, but I can tell already that this alone won't be enough. I'm pretty sure the saddles have enough adjustment in them to bring the action down to where I want it to be.

The other 2 Strats are a Robin Trower Tribute (limited edition) and a 1954 Masterbuilt. I think the Trower has a Microtilt, but will have to look again. As far as I understand it, the Microtilt alone is a marginal method for neck tilt...better to shim (if adjustment is needed at all) to avoid the 'air gap' that you'd get using the tilt adjustment alone. In any event, hopefully I won't need to worry about neck tilt!

Thanks again to all who answered!

[telecast]

Curt, the 'air gap' and 'tone' issues that supposedly result from shimming a neck are a myth. Fender's shims from the factry are a small piece of cardstock about 3/8" to 1/2" wide. That little bit of shim makes a huge difference in the action.

The free end of the neck pocket is a pivot point when shimming. If you consider that the neck pocket is about 2" long, and the part of the neck that sticks out beyond it is about 14" long, for every thickness you put it the body end of the neck pocket you are lowering the nut 7 times that amount. (14 div x 2 = 7)

So a shim of 1/64th will lower the nut 7/64th, or just under 1/8". That's a lot of change, and you'd never even be able to perceive an air gap. Even doubling that amount to 1/32 wouldn't produce a noticable gap.

[Offshore Angler]

If trhe screws are proruding on the saddles, it s indicative that the neck needs to be shimmed. Grinding the screws IS NOT the proper fix.

[Gris]

The bottom of the screws should be ground, not the tops. Your tech took a shortcut.

Yeah, of course, he did the bottom. I just wasn't specific...

[telecast]

After doing neck adjustment, set up and fret work, he ground the tops of the saddles down so they don't stick up so high........Yeah, of course, he did the bottom. I just wasn't specific...

Well, you said 'top'.

If trhe screws are proruding on the saddles, it s indicative that the neck needs to be shimmed. Grinding the screws IS NOT the proper fix.

Actually, it is a proper fix and is an alternative to shimming. Some folks don't want a shim because of the 'air gap' issue Curt mentioned. Grinding a few thousanths off a screw is no big deal, and they can be easily replaced. The saddles being bottomed out on the bridge plate are an indication that the neck needs shimming.

[Offshore Angler]

Well, you said 'top'.



Actually, it is a proper fix and is an alternative to shimming. Some folks don't want a shim because of the 'air gap' issue Curt mentioned. Grinding a few thousanths off a screw is no big deal, and they can be easily replaced. The saddles being bottomed out on the bridge plate are an indication that the neck needs shimming.

Disagree, it means the neck angle is off. You fix the problem, not create others by doing a workaround. Plus, what idiot would grind al the screws when a simple 3 minute shim job will work better? I'd find someone mew to work on the guitar. Neck angle will have other effects as well, like if it's off no amount of trussrod adjusting will yeild a propery playing guitar.

[Gris]

Well, which one of ya should a neophyte (re set-up) believe...? You both seem really in the know. It does seem like the action is kinda high still. Exactly how do you a shim anyway?

[telecast]

It doesn't matter, Gris. If he's already ground the screws and the action is still high, you have your answer. Everyone believes what they want. Grinding a bit off the bottom of the screws is a legitimate fix.

The neck angle is off? The ONLY relation the neck angle has is to the strings. If the saddles can be lowered enough to address it, the neck angle is not an issue. It's not black or white, there's plenty of gray area when it comes to working on guitars. I've had customers request that I not shim if there is any other way to avoid it. An awful lot of people think that shimming is absolutely the wrong way to go because they'll lose sustain. It's not true, but that's for a different thread.

There are a lot of thoughts on what type of shim to use. Some say brass, some say a piece of screen or sandpaper because they help hold the neck in place. Cardstock, a small piece of wood, or a guitar pick are also used. Some like to cut a tapered shim that covers the entire bottom of the neck pocket.

Unless you have a severe case, that's overkill. Take a piece of cardstock, thin wood (veneer), even half a guitar pick, and place it in the neck pocket between the two screws closest to the body. The shim should go from the end of the pocket to the screw holes, and even slightly in between them. Once you do that be prepared to adjust the saddles again.

[Offshore Angler]

telecast, lowering the saddles will work, but it decreases the break angle over the saddles and can lead to loss of sustain, bridge buzzing problems, and sometimes tuning stability problems. Not always, but I have seen it happen. That's why I always say attack the root cause and get the geometry on the guitar correct. Using the saddles as a Bandaid may solve the immediate problem, but cause others.
As you wisely noted, the shim will cause no problems, and besides, it's the easiest fix anyway. You're probably going to have the neck loose to adjust the rod during the setup so why not just pop in the shim and be done with it?

The break angle on a Strat isn't nearly as critical as it it with a Tune-O-Matic style bridge, but it does have some noticable effect on attack and sustain with a traditional Strat bridge. It's not huge like a Lester, but it is there.

[Gris]

what idiot would grind al the screws when a simple 3 minute shim job will work better?

Actually, as I said in my original post, the "idiot" did do some type of neck adjustment first (by loosening the neck bolts and doing something). I was on the other side of the shop so I didn't see exactly what he did. I'll ask him next time in. The "idiot" told me Fender only makes two types of saddle screws - long & short - and that these were the longs & were too long. The "idiot" also has owned & run his own music store here for decades and has set up for guitars for many great pro players (signed posters all over the walls thanking him...) And, I TOTALLY trust him. Just trying to educate myself, not second guessing my guy by any means. FWIW, I think it is possible that both of you guys are correct. Yes, look at the neck angle first, but it also seems logical that may not solve the issue of screws that are too long.

[telecast]

Gris:

Fender's 'short' screws are used on the 1 and 6 saddle, because they are the closest to the bridgeplate due to the fretboard radius. The others use the regular length screws.

Please note that in my post I said it's no problem to grind a few thousandths off the screws. If you go more than that, you can run into the problems OSA points out, but it'd need to be pretty severe. Strat bridge saddles are made to move around a lot, from a flat setup to a full floating trem. The break angle is taken into consideration on those saddles.

[Offshore Angler]

Gris, all I'm saying after doing more Strat setups for people than I can remember is that if the guy gets out a grinder I'd be looking elsewhere. As telecast noted, the short screws are for the E strings. Something sounds inherently wrong with the setup if the screws need grinding. In over 20 years, I've never seen that to be required. Something, somewhere on that guitar is not right, and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts it's the neck angle.

[Gris]

thanks

[Curt Basner]

Lots of good info here, guys, thanks so very much again.

As long as I"m at it, let me ask one more stupid question...

My Trower Strat has the 'bullet' truss rod. I gather the adjustment on the bullet type is on the headstock end, where it looks like there is an Allen type hole. What size wrench fits that hole? I know i could just experiment, but with English and metric sizes, in some cases, being so close and wanting an exact, perfect fit, can anyone tell me what the size is?