Modification ethics

[Kap'n]

I'd like to hear some opinions, either for, or against, installing an endpin jack pickup on one of these guitars.

This involves drilling of the endpin, but not cutting.

[Plugger]

This sounds like one of those "player vs collector" issues. From the player mind-set, I see absolutely no problem at all. A minimalist, tasteful, functional mod for a working guitar.

OTOH, if the guitar is primarily an investment/collection piece, obviously this is going to decrease its value some.

But it sounds like this is a working guitar...

-Mark

[Kap'n]

It's an interesting question to me.

I mean, pre-war D-45's were working instruments at one time. I think there might be a few folks up in arms if somebody drilled one out.

Heck, a lot of Stradivarius instruments are working instruments.

OTOH, pre-war D-45's are archetypes. The most deluxe version of the first dreadnaughts made. While there are fewer than 1/3 of the number of these guitars, the fact remains you can still buy the exact same guitar (OMC with Adirondak top) from Bourgeois, sans Sean Watkins label.

OTOH, this is a first-year production Pantheon-Bourgeois.
OTOH, I'm sure Sean's guitar has been drilled.

[NeoFauve]

I'd do it.

When you say "drilling of the end pin," do you mean the pin remains but you drill the center out to accept the jack?
Or is that how the pin is removed? By drilling it.

I always assumed they were press fit into the hole.

I'd bet Sean W has a jack in his too. And he probably has the first first one, period.
They now build this one w/o his name?

[Kap'n]

When you say "drilling of the end pin," do you mean the pin remains but you drill the center out to accept the jack?
Or is that how the pin is removed? By drilling it.

IIRC, it's got a regular electric-style strap button on it. Installing an enpin-jack would require drilling a hole. Even if it had a regular endpin, you would still need to enlarge the hole.

AFAIK, the Sean Watkins model is simply a OMC with E.I. Rosewood and Adirondak Spruce and gold Waverlies. Oh and the label.

Stupid trivia - there are actually 26 instruments in the 25 instrument series. They had a guitar magazine giveaway for one, and only afterwards realized they had already sold all of them. :lol

[NeoFauve]

Is this the model Bourgeois you have?

You're the guy thinking of violating its pristine rosewood loins??

[Plugger]

OTOH, I'm sure Sean's guitar has been drilled.

I think there you have an answer.

-Mark

[Kap'n]

Is this the model Bourgeois you have?

You're the guy thinking of violating its pristine rosewood loins??

Yep, that's the one. I'd go with a soundhole pickup that clips near the neck, but I can't deal with the protruding wire.

[chuckocaster]

neil Y was on conan the other night (replay) and was playing hank williams' old martin. i saw a cord coming out where the end pin should have been...

[NeoFauve]

Even w/a sound hole p'up, you're bound to mark the edges of the hole or the rosette after a while. And the wire running across the top...

I'm guessing you probably have no plans to sell it anytime soon.
If you play it on gigs, you demean the guitar's true purpose by not making it the most useful tool it can be for you.
In that light, they're all working instruments.:yay
I'll stick with- "I'd do it."

It's not like you're adding a Bigsby.

[Kap'n]

neil Y was on conan the other night (replay) and was playing hank williams' old martin. i saw a cord coming out where the end pin should have been...

Yep, but I'd guess that it being NY's Martin too probably adds more value than the hole detracts....

Someday, somebody will come up with a different endpin jack. One that terminates in a mini-plug, and fits into a standard taper hole. You then use an adapter to plug a regular 1/4" plug (or an XLR) into it. No mods necessary.

[chuckocaster]

why not buy another end pin and modify that? would be pretty simple and straightforward. you could hard wire the pickup through a hole drilled into the new endpin and have that terminate into a female 1/4" that you could attach to the strap. just a thought.

[Kap'n]

why not buy another end pin and modify that? would be pretty simple and straightforward. you could hard wire the pickup through a hole drilled into the new endpin and have that terminate into a female 1/4" that you could attach to the strap. just a thought.

I'll have to take a look. As I mentioned before, it might just have a electric guitar-style strap pin.

[Wilko]

I've seen them with 1/8 Jacks.

The other option is to drill and run the 1/8th pickup cable out of a smaller endpin and loop it to the strap and hook a real cord to that.

That's how I've seen 'em done.

On the other hand, I just drilled out my 78 Martin D-28 for a 1/4" Fishman endpin jack.

[NeoFauve]

You could go wireless and just clip the transmitter thingy to one of the braces.

[chuckocaster]

:toobad

[moonpie]

all you gotta do is get around to it
knuckle down, buckle down
DO IT, DO IT, DO IT

[Wilko]

do wacka do

[Wilko]

do wacka do

[Folk_guy]

Unless a guitar is a real collectors item, a rare vitage instrument, like a pre-war Martin. I would go ahead and drill it for an endpin jack.

[Wilko]

Really, there are metods to get the signal through the factory endpin hole without reaming. Why bother on a special guitar?

[Kap'n]

I've seen them with 1/8 Jacks.

The other option is to drill and run the 1/8th pickup cable out of a smaller endpin and loop it to the strap and hook a real cord to that.

Any links?

[BradKM]

Someday, somebody will come up with a different endpin jack. One that terminates in a mini-plug, and fits into a standard taper hole. You then use an adapter to plug a regular 1/4" plug (or an XLR) into it. No mods necessary.

Be that somebody.

Or do the "wire through a bored out end pin to a jack on the strap" thing. It should be too hard.

[Wilko]

Any links?

I've seen them done that way since the 70's

The on endpin job was a custom jobby made by jamming in a female 1/8 plastic cord that was "wittled" by hand to form a strap button.

The other were all thin cords with small 1/8" female jacks that hung out the back of the guitars. These were all Martins and the pickups were all the "Barcus Berry" transducers that were around back then.

Here's the jack:
http://www.compassxpress.com/Product...764/index.html

Since they're hanging out through a holloed out endpin, there's no reason not to use a 1/4" jack and use real cords.

You could even go stereo for Fishman Blenders and such.

[frank thomson]

i'll lend you the drill

cut that fat bastard!

[NeoFauve]

Kap'n- I wonder if my65pan could fashion something for you.

I'm picturing a regular 1/4" jack through the endpin hole. Thread the inside nut down to allow maximum thread length outside the body.
The external nut would sandwich the body, then there'd be a beefier nut on the outside, machined to act as your strap button.
It could screw snug against the regular thin nut to lock all up.

Just an idea.

[Kap'n]

Kap'n- I wonder if my65pan could fashion something for you.

I'm picturing a regular 1/4" jack through the endpin hole. Thread the inside nut down to allow maximum thread length outside the body.
The external nut would sandwich the body, then there'd be a beefier nut on the outside, machined to act as your strap button.
It could screw snug against the regular thin nut to lock all up.

Just an idea.

Interesting. Except there's a big block of wood at the endpin, which is why it's the best place to stick a jack. Anybody remember 60's acoustic-electrics, that had rim mounted jacks? Everyone I saw had a duct tape repair. :toobad

I guess I could talk to my luthier.

[Gravity Jim]

...you demean the guitar's true purpose by not making it the most useful tool it can be for you.

Well said.

Guitars are built to a specific utilitarian purpose, not as purely esthetic purposes (i.e., tools, not art). Each luthier alters the basic, original, Platonic design of the tool called "guitar" to suit their own tastes or vision of the purpose. So, if you own a guitar and want to make alterations in its original structure in order to suit a specific utilitarian purpose, you're not doing anything differently than the guy who built it.

These are tools, not works of art. Drill 'em and fill 'em. I mean, guitars are nice looking tools, so do a nice looking job, but if you want a pickup in that axe, then it needs a pickup and that's final.

[Plugger]

These are tools, not works of art.

An obviously false dichotomy. There is nothing to say that a guitar can't be both a working tool _and_ a work of art.

Having said that, I think the crux of the issue is balancing the two aspects. An unobtrusive, subtle mod of the kind the Kap'n is proposing does not seriously violate the artistic vision of the luthier in this case. Red paint and ground glass for a nice sparkle effect would. (I once saw a Martin that someone had improved in this way :toobad).

The only people I think might really get upset are the "collector purists", who leave behind simple appreciation of the luthier's art and become fetishists. There is no question of balance with these guys. It's black and white. Guitars as inviolable, sacred objects of idolatry and worship. Yech.

-Mark

[Kap'n]

Thanks folks.

This isn't a pressing mod for me. I've got another acoustic, also OM-sized, that I've used as a performance instrument in the past. Since I perform acoustic so rarely now, and my desire to rid myself of excess instruments*, it seemed like having one acoustic was the thing to do, and ridding myself of the lesser instrument would also eliminate the possibility of live performance, and that just seemed silly.

Then again, it's nice to have a matched pair of instruments around the house for when people come to visit.


*Not mentioned previously so as not to skew answers, and also not mentioned, since I didn't want to seem like I'm spamming.

[NeoFauve]

Pheewww!
I'm glad this wasn't another one of those sociological experiments!:%

[Kap'n]

Thanks Bill.

In your next, uh, test, you will be required to administer electric shocks to people who answer your questions incorrectly. This is to see if they think faster with an incentive....

[Kap'n]

So I finally decided to do it.

I ordered one of these, in ivory micarta. I'll be installing one of the no-preamp Fishman UST's, and run it into the Aura pedal I recently purchased. That's about as non-invasive as I can go and still gig this thing.

A few years of playing this guitar, and it makes it tough to not be able to play it live.

[gibsonjunkie]

I did it on all my acoustic guitars and really don't think I hurt the value of them... but I'd have a a good luthier do it... I did my original J-40 myself back when I was in school. When I think about how I could have damaged it....

[Cogs]

I think that endpin looks like a great idea! This, however, would make me a little nervous:

That's a lot of weight & potential stress on a tiny jack. I'd be trying to figure out some sort of stress relief for that puppy.

[Kap'n]

I'm planning on looping it through the strap.

[sabby]

So you have a Bourgeois, Kap'n?

You lucky dog. The best acoustic I ever played -- by a wide margin, to my ears -- was a Bourgeois 12-fret 000, Adirondak on Mahogany. The thing responded like a Tele: so much volume, so much punch, and so much chime it was ridiculous.

[hippiebob01]

I've never played a Bourgeois, but I'm planning on making a trip up to Maple Street Music in Atlanta where they sell Collings, Santa Cruz, McPherson, and Bourgeios.

[Kap'n]

You lucky dog.

Yes I am. These things are heirloom quality.

I wish one of my nieces or nephews would get into guitar. If they knew what would be waiting for them in a few years if they did.

[elicross]

Can I be your nephew?