Got my Squier 51... Changing necks... need Shim help!

[InstituteOfNoise]

My black Squier 51 showed up today. The neck on that went to a Partscaster for my daughter, that fit way better than the '91 Tele Rosewood American Standard neck I had on there. I wanted to put that neck on the S'51, but it appears it's about a 1/16" shorter than the S'51 neck. This is the height from the bottom of the neck to the top of the fretboard.

BIG QUESTION HERE... I've never needed to shim anything before. Anyone know the best material to use for resonance and to get an even fit between the pocket and the neck heel?

I think the width fit is okay, but definitely not super snug. The Tele Am Std neck is 22 frets too, not 21 like the S'51 neck. That shouldn't matter I hope?!?

Thanks in advance!

[Camoradi]

If the neck is only 1/16th lower in the pocket I can't see it being a problem. That would be somewhere around what is called 'manufacturing tolerance'. Just put it on and lower the saddles the approporaite amount when you do the setup. The fit between the sides of the neck and the neck pocket makes no difference to the resonance of the guitar, it is purely cosmetic. It could however be argued that unless the fit is either perfect, or has a complete gap around the edge of the pocket, a partially fitting neck will sap resonance, not increase it. The vibrations going through the neck and body 'buzz' against each other at different rates when not in anything other than very close contact, each cancelling the other, instead of vibrating together. As the neck heel and body are clamped tightly together this doesn't happen. So I wouldn't worry about a gap.

[Offshore Angler]

Drink a beer, cut shims from the can, and install.

(note: you must be over 21 to use this method.)

[photoweborama]

I agree, just lower the saddles. Or do like Fezz (I think) and stick a guitar pick in there. instant shim.

Acording to Fender, you only need to shim if your string height is too high and your saddles are already at as low as they can go. then you shim it and pitch the neck back and raise your saddles.

Does not sound like you have that problem at all.

[telecast]

Acording to Fender, you only need to shim if your string height is too high and your saddles are already at as low as they can go. then you shim it and pitch the neck back and raise your saddles.

Does not sound like you have that problem at all.

That's because Fender isn't addressing body/neck modifications on their website. They're offering setup advice on a factory body/neck match. A 1/16" drop in neck thickness would almost certainly require a shim.

[InstituteOfNoise]

Not too mention, as it sits now, the strings will be hitting the neck pup for sure. Would any type of thin wood do? Venner, balsa, ??? They beer can route is tempting...

[telecast]

This isn't that hard, really. Take a pick, break off the tip. Stick it in the neck pocket closest to the pickup. Install the neck. Check the height. That will tell you about how much thickness you need. A little goes a LONG way. Raising the heel of the neck the thickness of a pick will result in dropping the nut end by about 6-8 times that thickness. It should be plenty.

If you insist on using wood, a hardwood would be better. Remember though: Unless you're using a tapered style shim and get an EXACT mate between the body/shim/neck, which means the wood has to be perfectly fit so that 100% of the shim touches the neck pocket and neck, you haven't gained a thing over using the pick.

I've dissasembled more Fender guitars than I can remember. Whenever I find a shim, it's a small piece of carboard like a matchbook cover, about 3/8" wide and long engh to fit between the screw holes. I've even found them with a Fender logo printed on them. That's what Fender uses, so you can see the material is not that critical.

[Motojunkie]

Andy, Don't use balsa or any other soft wood. Stick to hard wood if you go that route.

Another option would be to go to a hardware store and pick up a sheet of brass (usually available in various thicknesses) primarily used for hobbyists. Cut the right size, drill holes in it, and youll be set with a nice shim. If it's not available near you, drop me a line, and I'll pick some up for you and stick it in the mail.

[InstituteOfNoise]

Tom, the brass sounds like a good idea. I'll give that a try. I had just figured wood would be the obvious choice. I've been in the studio non-stop for over a week, I just need to find 2 seconds to venture out in daylight to do this.

Telecast I didn't quite get this one though... "Raising the heel of the neck the thickness of a pick will result in dropping the nut end by about 6-8 times that thickness".

I did want it raised evenly, not really on one end.Was that the implication?

Thanks guys!

[InstituteOfNoise]

Aw heck with it... It was sitting here staring at it and dug around and found some thick card stock. Doubled it up, threw on the neck, and it looks like it may be ok. I'll have to string it. Thanks!

[Camoradi]

"Not too mention, as it sits now, the strings will be hitting the neck pup for sure."

Lower the pup?

[telecast]

Aw heck with it... It was sitting here staring at it and dug around and found some thick card stock. Doubled it up, threw on the neck, and it looks like it may be ok. I'll have to string it. Thanks!

LOL! Read the last paragraph of my last post!

[InstituteOfNoise]

Telecast... that sort of drove me!

Camordi, no adjusting screws without taking the guard off. I'll eventually do that when I change the neck pup.

All that will be left orginal is the body and a few hardware items. Hehe!

[Wilko]

Most folks only use a shim for one end of the pocket. You get a lot more mileage and the guitar doesn't show any mess between the neck and body. You'll also get better sound. Specially if you're using something as soft as cardboard.

All you need to do is get the angle right so that your saddles are where you want them, not where the neck says they should be. You set the neck angle and go from there.

[InstituteOfNoise]

Wilko, I sort of noticed that. I guess I'll have to play with it a bit to get the action uniform and still the right height.

I just would have thought the Tele Am Std neck would be such a non-issue on this, but shows what I know!

[Marcondo]

Whatever adjustments you make inside the neck pocket usually ends up as a 3x's larger measurment at the saddles. So if you use a 1/32" shim on a neck thats correct in height you will have to raise the saddles 3/32" higher.

I have used everything from an old album cardboard to the edge of a matchbook business card credit card a strip of sandpaper 1/4" wide with the grit side down all worked fine.

[telecast]

Telecast I didn't quite get this one though... "Raising the heel of the neck the thickness of a pick will result in dropping the nut end by about 6-8 times that thickness".

I did want it raised evenly, not really on one end.Was that the implication?

Thanks guys!

Oops, I just saw this part. Let me see if I can explain:

You don't want to raise the entire neck, all you need to do is tilt it back (trust me on this). Put your shim material at the body end of the neck pocket. Make it about 3/8" wide so the neck is higher at the body end. This makes the free end of the neck pocket act like a pivot point, which effectively lowers the nut in relation to the neck. Tilting the neck back puts it much closer to the strings without using so much material and keeps at least part o the neck in contact with the body.

[InstituteOfNoise]

Gotcha! I'll give that a try tonight and let you know. Thanks!

[Camoradi]

"Camordi, no adjusting screws without taking the guard off. I'll eventually do that when I change the neck pup."

Well Ok, but to me it just seems like removing ten screws is easier to master than the technical art of shimming a neck. And I think some people should re-acquaint themselves with what 1/16th of an inch looks like when recommending any sort of full shim, never mind the complication of jacking one end of an otherwise good, but 1/16th" low, neck.

[Wilko]

We're talking tele, right?

Adjusting the neck pickup requires removing the guard. Not that big a deal, and can be done while tuned up.

1/16" is plenty different and should be shimmed to get a good setup with a comfortable saddle height/neck angle.

Just use the hardest material available and you'll be golden. Anything soft (cardboard, balsa, etc.) will damp sound energy. People use cans, picks, sandpaper, coins, or whatever they have laying around. It's an easy job that takes a few minutes of setup and gets great results.

[InstituteOfNoise]

Wilko, It's actually a Squier 51 I'm putting an Am Std Tele neck on to.

Your probably right there too Camoradi. Since I'm going to eventually change the pups pretty soon here too, I should try that.

Sounds like I'll have the neck off more than a few times before I'm done here. I should say the bridge pup looks like it's got clearance, but may be high. Again not sure I guess till I string it up and try it all out.

[telecast]

Well Ok, but to me it just seems like removing ten screws is easier to master than the technical art of shimming a neck. And I think some people should re-acquaint themselves with what 1/16th of an inch looks like when recommending any sort of full shim, never mind the complication of jacking one end of an otherwise good, but 1/16th" low, neck.

I assume you're talking to me? OK, go back and read my post. I never told him to put a 1/16" shim in. I recommended a guitar pick OR a piece of matchbook cover thickness card strock. I told him it would be more than enough to take out the amount he needed.

Secondly, if you think putting a shim in a neck is a technical art, you have no business posting advice to anyone.

Third, IF you go back and take the time to read HIS post, he says:

Not too mention, as it sits now, the strings will be hitting the neck pup for sure.

Which indicates that it is in addition to the string height problem, not the only problem.

If you really think I should acquaint myself with what 1/16" looks like, I suggest you acquaint yourself with the people on this board. I've been building guitars for well over 25 years, and feel well qualified to offer solid advice.

I suspect ION will have no problem shimming that neck. And if he does, he can always ask us again.

[InstituteOfNoise]

Well tonight I went down to Home Depot looking for some ideas and came across one that looks pretty darn cool (I hope). Whiel following this real nice lady around looking for solutions she took me over to the area where they cut venetian blinds to fit. In the trash bin was hundreds of end pieces the thickness of card stock. And they were free! Each piece was 1" x 1 1/2" and can be easily cut up with a scissors. And they are metal. Aluminum I assume.

Well I lowered the neck pup a bit and sort of layed everything out and it may just work now, possibly without the shim. I say that because I was gonna go with a GFS fatboy Tele neck which doesn't have extended pole pieces. But if I have to this little aluminum section may be just perfect under the body part of the heel.

Thanks for all the tips! Hopefully the blinds end pieces is a worthy one as a return note of interest. I promise pics when it's done.

[Camoradi]

"I assume you're talking to me? "

I think you need to calm down. I wasn't talking TO you, I was talking TO the issue of solving problems with setup. At the root is a chap who had a neck that was 1/16th inch to low that basically hadn't mounted it on the body to see where a problem lay, or if there was even going to be a problem after a full setup. And going by his comments there was more concern for not adjusting the pup height, or possibly even the saddle height (although that is conjecture), and doing the simplest things first, than jumping in feet first and wanting to shim the neck. I am not against shimming the neck if it needs it, any neck, but JUST on the basis that you know how to shim a neck isn't a basis to always recommend it. Its akin to a mechanic recommending they take the engine out just to change the oil. In solving problems the most complicated OR the easiest and most radical thing, isn't usually the first thing you do. Guitars have more than one adjustment.

As for, whoever it was, recomending a matchbook cover or guitar pick, well, yes, there is the caveman approach to shimming, and it does have its adherents who make it work. I can see the furrowed brows now when they reach for their guitar pick. Doh! I nicer way to get the 1/16th back is two pieces of 400 grit wet'n'dry bonded back to back and used as the shim. This ensures that as the shim compresses the 'rotational' (the same adjustment you make for neck alignment) grip between neck and body is increased by the rough surface. Using a simple card shim, as with a pick, can mean that, with the reduced contact patch caused by the shim, simply picking the guitar up by the neck can move the neck in the pocket. Not always, not ever sometimes, but it will only happen at the worst times if it does.

[telecast]

As for, whoever it was, recomending a matchbook cover or guitar pick, well, yes, there is the caveman approach to shimming, and it does have its adherents who make it work. I can see the furrowed brows now when they reach for their guitar pick. Doh! I nicer way to get the 1/16th back is two pieces of 400 grit wet'n'dry bonded back to back and used as the shim. This ensures that as the shim compresses the 'rotational' (the same adjustment you make for neck alignment) grip between neck and body is increased by the rough surface. Using a simple card shim, as with a pick, can mean that, with the reduced contact patch caused by the shim, simply picking the guitar up by the neck can move the neck in the pocket. Not always, not ever sometimes, but it will only happen at the worst times if it does.

Just so I understand, you believe that Fender's approach to shimming is caveman?

You can come up with all kinds of silly reasons to justify a method. Ive seen sandpaper used before. I've never had a neck move because of cardstock. Could it happen? If you say so. And my grandmother could win the Indy 500. Not very likely.

Institute: Better not use that aluminum, it might slip. :rofl

[InstituteOfNoise]

Good point on the aluminum... Hmmm. Back to square one...

[Motojunkie]

Andy, the aluminum will work just fine. I use brass stock for shimming, and I've never had a problem.

[telecast]

Good point on the aluminum... Hmmm. Back to square one...

Umm, that was a joke. Try the aluminum.

[Camoradi]

"Just so I understand, you believe that Fender's approach to shimming is caveman? "

I don't think its particularly sophisticated, no, but, yes it does work enough to be viable, but thats not to say a detail can't be improved upon. But I guess the sophistication involved in shimming a neck isn't so much the materials involved, but the application of the correct materials, used in the correct way, at the correct time, for the correct reason. And that is why Fender's piece of card becomes part of a sophisticated process, because Fender put a neck on a guitar and attempt a setup BEFORE they decide to put a shim in the neck pocket. By doing that they can determine if it needs a full shim, a shim at the back, or a shim at the front of the neck pocket, or if it needs a shim at all. Now, that is the sort of reasoning, working with knowledge, not supposition, that dragged the caveman out of the cave onto the farmstead. And just as once upon a time card was only used for packaging pizza's and writing shopping lists upon, the evolutionary process helped somebody develop the thought they could use it to shim guitar necks with. And then somebody thought they could use sandpaper for the same job, and who know's where it will lead? Clearly though, evolution can skip generations, so I'd give better odds on your granny than you at the Indy 500 :lol

Just teasing calm down.......

[telecast]

Just teasing calm down.......

Ah yes! The obligatory smiley face and disclaimer. The perfect way to get in a dig and get out cleanly.

So you're suggesting now that sandpaper is preferred to cardstock, and evolution is somehow responsible?

Hmmm. I shall think on that one. In the meantime, I hope ION installs his aluminum shim and swings the guitar around by the neck to see if the neck shifts.

[Wilko]

wow, this thread is getting fun. :)

[telecast]

wow, this thread is getting fun. :)

It's been fun! :blbros

[InstituteOfNoise]

Who'd of thunk a tiny piece of scrap would cause such a stir??? I bet after all this I probably won't need the shim once I get all the parts intended in place. Oi!

But still thanks for all the great advice!

[Camoradi]

"So you're suggesting now that sandpaper is preferred to cardstock, and evolution is somehow responsible?"

Yes. Was there something confusing about the suggestion when I first made it? And if you don't believe in human ideas evolving and progressing, then I guess God must have planted the idea for sandpaper in somebodies head, so I guess it get's the 'thumbs up' from the Almighty as well.

The thing is telecast, there isn't a thing made that can't be improved upon, even by way of a small detail. After the first mousetrap people have been trying to make a better mousetrap, and so on. I'd have thought anybody could understand that. But your blind belief that because Fender use cardstock there is a fundamental property to card that makes it 'the' material to use, is both arrogant and quaint at the same time. The Fender factory isn't populated by happy little elves that build you perfect guitars while they sing elvish songs. As you sit warm and snug on Chritmas Eve sipping your mulled wine and thinking of the brightly wrapped present of a new Strat that will be coming down the chimney, don't imagine for a moment that in the cold bleary light of Boxing Day, it won't need to go to a tech for a full setup. And guitar techs around the world have been 'improving' on the hallowed practice's of Fender for getting on sixty years now. Maybe in small details, like using a grippy medium for a shim (you did read InstititeOfNoise said his neck pocket wasn't particularly snug didn't you?), but nontheless, they have contributed enough knowledge independantly of Fender both through necessity, and a more detailed analysis of user feedback (fixing broken guitars), that surely they have a well founded technical contribution to make in improving the product?

But, all said and done, Fender use shims very infrequently in modern guitar production, and it is 'largely' in the realm of guitar techs that shims are prescribed. So it shouldn't necessarly be a surprise that there isn't a company policy to improve the design/performance of a piece of card, which manufacturing QC terms shouldn't be there, and if improved upon would be an acceptance of a problem with QC. Fender couldn't win.

Sorry you didn't like the smiley. I thought the idea of your granny beating you in in the indy 500 was funny, but as you think it was a 'dig' I guess you take it seriously. Sorry. I have never really thought my granny could beat me in a motor race, so just assumed others would think likewise. Obviously a sore point was touched upon. Careful of that old mousetrap telecast! Doh!

[telecast]

Ok, let's do it this way Comeradi: You're right, I'm wrong. In fact, anyone who suggested anything other than your method is wrong. Sandpaper is the best way to go because the neck won't slide around. I am Neanderthal, you are modern human. Nevermind the fact that there are 4 or 5 other people saying that other (smooth)materials will work fine, yours is the best method.

[Wilko]

very small rocks.


lead.


A duck.

[Camoradi]

Its all very well trying to make out I am brow beating you into submission telecast, but in those last few posts I have simply been replying to your questions. If you don't want to know, don't ask.

But as I have said before, and it bears reiterating, the really poor technical advice offered in this thread is not over a card, sandpaper, or aluminum shim. The poor technical advice is from anybody who suggested, without any consideration made for needing one or not, that the original poster put a shim under the neck in the first place. How the massed shim presciption came about baffles me, because without doing a full setup, nobody (not least the owner of the guitar) could have possibly known if it was needed, unless they had been divining the entrails of a pigeon (or preferably goat). If that makes me the lone dissenter, so be it, but before I recommend a shim to anybody I'll suggest going through the basic's first, and try not to lead them up the garden path just because I happen to know about shims. In a way I hope he does eventually find a shim is needed in the neck pocket, he can have fun trying all the suggestions! But how bad would it be to suggest totally blindly an unnecessary shim, with the ensuing problems, time, and possibly money that would be taken to resolve the issue?

[Wilko]

How could people come to the "prescription" that a shim was to be used?

Maybe the thread title?

AND

Anyone with average experience setting up these guitars can tell you that with the mentioned 1/16" difference in neck height at the the heel, a shim is going to be called into service. Probably 99% of the folks will be right.

Why so down on shims?

[InstituteOfNoise]

Maybe I should preface my original post... I'm not sure I'm gonna need a shim, but just a guess based on putting it all together, but not really screwign in all the parts. I was sort of going on the assumption "I" will probably need a to shim. There is a chance I won't. But I'd rather get some advice before I get to it so I don't wait longer than I have to throw it together. AND... many times you all with lot's of experience may say something else that may be an idea or something to watch out for. You all have a wealth of info... heck this thread sure is proof! Thanks guys!

[Camoradi]

"Anyone with average experience setting up these guitars can tell you that with the mentioned 1/16" difference in neck height at the the heel, a shim is going to be called into service. Probably 99% of the folks will be right.

Why so down on shims?"

I guess there are two points here. The first relates to average experience. What is the average experience of putting a '91 Tele neck on a Squire'51 body? Hands up all those that have done it? No, thought not. Secondly, yes, a lot of people with average experience will say put a shim under the neck. All that means Wilko is that you have your 99% of people with only average experience. Thats not good. That is nothing to crow about.

Following the herd doesn't get you beyond only 'average' experience, you need to refine your practice. Two things an experienced tech would do are a) base the decision to jump in and shim on previous experience of similar components with similar measurements. Or b) set the guitar up and then decide that if it needed a shim, what sort, and where. Both are efficient decisive choices, both save time, and money, both lead to a good job. On the other hand, somebody with average experience says 'I've heard you can put a shim in here, I'll do it!' . So starts the experimentation, the changing of shim heights, the changing of the position, and then frequently realization sets in that after hours of trying, and failing to get it right, the job could have been avoided completely. Or at least a shortcut be made by bolting the bits together first and measuring exactly what you are dealing with, not making assumptions from a pile of bits! But I would guess Wilko anybody who gives their advice based on the title of the thread has a lot of climbing to do before they even get above 'average', because the other thing a good technician does is listen, carefully, to the 'customer'.

The second point, and one that perhaps highlights the last sentence of the previous paragraph, is your perception that I am 'down on shims'. Shims are OK, great even, when the need has been diagnosed. I have never said anything other than that, so if you want to skew the argument to make make a point, do some reading of all the posts first, and make sure you have some ammunition, because firing blanks will only embarrass you.