60 Cycle Hum - This is really funny!

[GhostofJimi]

I just ordered a new set of Kinman Woodstocks (still waiting).

When I told my bandmate (a guitarist with very good ears and a 'purist' Strat attitude) about it, he said it was a mistake because "stacked pickups suck and will never be as good as regular singles. Furthermore, hum is part of the authentic Strat sound...." You know the routine.

So, yesterday, I invited him over for a real blindfolded A/B test. I borrowed another friend's Strat outfitted with Kinmans (either Traditionals or MK-II, not sure), and invited my bandmate over. I had him put on a blindfold (sleep mask) and stand 5 yards in front of a Blackface Fender.

First I played the Kinman equipped guitar in all positions. My friend could tell it was the Kinmans b/c of the absence of hum. I told him to keep his decision to himself until he heard the other guitar.... "a Strat with REAL high-quality REGULAR boutique Single Coils".... or so he thought.

So I picked up the Kinman equipped guitar again and added some 60 Cycle hum from another source (recorded). Keep in mind that this guy was still blindfolded! I played the exact same piece, through the exact same equipment, without my friend moving an inch. The only difference was the added "fake" 60 Cycle Hum.

What was the result? My bandmate responded... "by far the second guitar has that authentic Strat sound.... the first guitar was too dry and fake sounding... you have confirmed what I already know... noisless single coils just don't cut it... etc. etc. etc." (He still had the blindfold on).

I told him that, at this point, it was okay to remove his blindfold, so he could see the "Real" Single Coil equipped guitar. Needless to say, when he saw only ONE guitar, (with Kinmans) he felt like a real

This is all TRUE. I know there was another post about 60 Cycle hum that got a bit nasty and is now locked. If you want to respond to this post, PLEASE keep it civil.

[Tele-Bob]

I love it when the purist snobs learn a new trick. I have Kinmans in three of my guitars and I think they sound great. Oh, I'm also not plagued by that nasty 60 cycle hum anymore.

But above and beyond the noiseless vs noisey p'up debate, people do have sonic preferences. I really enjoyed your test because it was based on pure sonic evaluation and proved just how damaging our own preconceptions can be. I too was hardcore "anti-noiseless" until I tried Kinmans and BL280s. They both sound great to my ear. To get all down into whether it's a "true vintage" sound or not is really pointless because that implies that a true vintage sound is the only good sound. I judge p'ups based on whether they just plain sound good or not.

Thanks for sharing.

[GhostofJimi]

No problem..... I think the test proved it's point. But I'm not knocking regular single coil users, since I'm among them. I also used to have preconceptions about noiseless stacks (until I tried Kinmans that is!)

The only problem is that the Kinman Traditionals sounded so good, I will have to drop another $280 (not to mention buy another strat) to have these (since I already paid for the Woodstocks).... but I'm sure the 'Stocks will satisfy for now.

[curtisstetka]

That is awesome!

I've got Kinmans in my tele. I just cannot STAND 60 cycle hum anymore. No way I'll go back.

[GhostofJimi]

Do you think I've done the right thing in ordering Woodstocks as opposed to MK-IIs? I just need a versitile pickup that will cover bother clean and dirty, bright and smokey.

I still may have a chance to change my order from Woodstocks to MK-II's.... any suggestions? I'm agonizing over this!!

[curtisstetka]

I had Kinman AVN60s in my Tele. They were superb. Recently I swapped them out for AVN48s. They were also superb, just slightly more what I was looking for.

All I can say is that both models are great, incredibly versatile pickups. One model suited my guitar, amp, pedals, technique, and ears slightly better.

So, unfortunately, it's difficult to make a choice until you've got the pickups actually in your guitar.

The good news is that Kinman makes excellent product. Whatever pickup you get is going to be GREAT. So at least you're already starting from such a baseline.

[pc]

Wow. Third time I've read that same story on an Internet guitar forum, and I know it wasn't you who posted it the first two times.

Hope that was civil enough. :)

[fezz parka]

I don't like 'em. And I'm not a purist snob, I'm a professional musician and mastering engineer. The "improvements" that are touted by various makers of noiseless pickups haven't impressed me yet. Some are better than others, but I still prefer my electromagnetic induction the old fashioned way. YMMV. YGWYPF.

[Kap'n]

I don't like 'em. And I'm not a purist snob, I'm a professional musician and mastering engineer. The "improvements" that are touted by various makers of noiseless pickups haven't impressed me yet. Some are better than others, but I still prefer my electromagnetic induction the old fashioned way. YMMV. YGWYPF.

I'm sure if you found one you liked, it would make your job a heck of a lot easier, too.

Me, the noise doesn't bother me enough to need anything other than the regular stuff.

[fezz parka]

I'm sure if you found one you liked, it would make your job a heck of a lot easier, too...

Yep. I do spend a lot of time looking for magnetic north.:hee

Like I told Kinman in another thread, if he made pickups that sounded like a regular single coil without the "improvements", just a warts & all single coil without the buzz, I'd buy 'em.

[photoweborama]

I would say, though, that the majority of us could not tell the difference. I know I can't unless I'm A/B ing a set of guitars that are almost identical with different pickups.

Note that I said "the majority" of us. There are those that can tell the difference. I'm not one of them, but I still don't use Noiseless pickups.

I don't have a lot of money, so I know what works for me already and I tend to go with that over and over again. Kent Armstrong Tweed Tones. I know what they can do and how they sound. I'm not ready to invest a lot of money in pickups I have not tried yet.

Though there are some I respect enough to try something different off their recommendation.

[tonemonkey]

I'm interested in this long running debate.

Is there something particularly offensive about 60 cycle hum? Living in europe I don't often hear 60 cycle hum, as our mains is different, we get 50 cycle hum over this side of the pond. I don't get particularly offended by the hum that sometimes becomes part of my sound, I don't go out of my way to get it, but if it's there, I'll live with it.

Now I understand why you would want a noisless pickup, hell, I'd like a noisless pickup, but I want one that, to my ears at least, sounds right. Let me make it clear, I have no criticism of the tones produced by noisless pickups, some of them are great, but sorry for me they don't sound how I want them to. I spent a good while trying different single coils, noisless from fender, and the Kinmans that were available to me (just the Marvin set) before settling on the custom shop '54s I have in my strat. Those pickups to me had everything I wanted from a single coil, and as I've said before had the only pefrect bridge tone I have ever heard. As Fezz said I found the wonderous improvements that the noiseless pickups offered actually detracted from the essence of what makes a single coil sound wonderful. Many of the single coils had similar faults, searching for the holy grail nirvana of tone, that I found with the pickups based on the very first strat pickups made.

All of this is MHO and of course YMMV, if the noisless pickups float your boat go sailing in it.

[fezz parka]

So that's two sets Kinman would sell to the non-believers, if he could make a single coil noisless pickup that sounds exactly like the real thing, minus only the bzzzzzzz.

FWIW I like a good bzzzzz now & then.:hee

[pc]

Well, let's see. I borrow a friend's Strat that has Kinman's in them. I haven't bothered to ask my friend which model pickups they are, even though I've already posted numerous threads here trying to assess the differences in the models.

Then I somehow manage to record 60 Hz hum--digitally I assume, so there would be no tape hiss--and figure out a way to rebroadcast that recording from an area so close to the amp that my friend can't tell the hum recording isn't coming from the amp's speaker, yet the speakers that are playing back the hum recording are somehow not noticed by the listener.

And this whole elaborate gag is to somehow trick my friend into realizing that he's been wrong all along about his Strat purism. I succeed in tricking my friend by lying to him so that he'll reveal his purism is really a sham, all to prove the point that the pickups I think I might order for my guitar are worth it.

I'm tired just typing all that.

If you like the way your friend's Strat sounds with Kinmans in it, order yourself some Kinmans.

[fezz parka]

Dude, I put it on my iPod and plugged it into the #2 input! Bzzzzzzzzzz.:hee

[stratcat62]

I have Kinman Woodstocks in one of my strats. I bought them for the tone and versality and consider the absence of hum a plus. Normally, I have some part of one of my hands in contact with the strings and have never had a problem with the hum. I have 1 set of actual 62 pickups, 1 set of Fralins, 1 set of CS Fat50's and 1 set of SCN pickups. I've owned Dimarzzios and Duncan's as well. In my view, the Woodstocks are more sensitive and dynamic than the rest. As for true vintage tone, which vintage tone is everyone talking about. Early strats, and their pickups, were very inconsistent and would yield noticeable differences in tone and playability from one guitar to the next. There is nothing sacred about vintage gear. Some is good, some mediocre and some just stink. Just like new gear.

A friend and great player named Steve Thorpe, as 3 sets of the numbered Ybara pickups. You know, the old lady that hand wound pickups in the 50's and does a limited number now. Well, all three sets yield different tonality. Granted, two out of the three sound good. The third set doesn't have reversed polarity on the middle pickup so the set lacks those middle setting tones.

The pickups either sound good or they don't and hum doesn't sound good. I, too, have not been a fan of noiseless pickups as they just didn't sound good to me. That was before Kinman's. For the record, I can easily hear diffences between all my different pickups, but my Woodstocks give me more of what I want. Enough so that I intend to get a set of the Traditional MKII for one of my other strats.

[Kap'n]

Well, let's see. I borrow a friend's Strat that has Kinman's in them...

And yet, he didn't notice, even blindfolded, that the hum didn't change when he moved? Isn't that the first thing everybody does when they hear hum...twist a little.

I smell something.:ahem

[fezz parka]

Do you have a huume?



:hee

[pc]

Dude, I put it on my iPod and plugged it into the #2 input! Bzzzzzzzzzz.:hee

But surely the listener could hear the 6 dB reduction and slight high-end roll-off when the iPod was plugged into the active pickups jack.

:lol

Sorry, I strayed from civility. But like Kap'n, I smelled something funkae.

By contrast, I've got no problem with anyone digging Chris's pups. As Fezz says, "Dig what you dig, not what someone else digs, dig?"

Just don't blow smoke up my ass while you're digging it.

[fezz parka]

As Fezz says, "Dig what you dig, not what someone else digs, dig?"

Just don't blow smoke up my ass while you're digging it.

:yay

OT, have I shown you my newest modelling pedal yet?



I don't know if I should put this first in the chain or this one:



:rofl

[pc]

Mmmm..., Slow hand god cream.

[seagate]

I'd be very careful with the Face dial. I'm told it gets stuck at about 3/4 and there's no cure for it...


:lol

[GhostofJimi]

"Wow. Third time I've read that same story on an Internet guitar forum, and I know it wasn't you who posted it the first two times.

Hope that was civil enough. "..........



Yeah, it definetly wasn't me who posted those other similar threads you saw. Damn, I thought I had an original idea here -- this test was something I wanted to do for a long time -- but I'm not surprised that someone else came up with the same idea!

[GhostofJimi]

"Then I somehow manage to record 60 Hz hum--digitally I assume, so there would be no tape hiss--and figure out a way to rebroadcast that recording from an area so close to the amp that my friend can't tell the hum recording isn't coming from the amp's speaker, yet the speakers that are playing back the hum recording are somehow not noticed by the listener."..........

.......... Actually, I piped the hum from a line level source INTO the blackface amp w/ the guitar (using a $2.50 adapter from radio shack). Believe me, it was very convincing sounding, to me at least. (I'm not an engineer, though). And my friend has good ears (or so I thought). All in all, the whole set up took me about 3 minutes (not including recording the hum)... very low tech. But this was all in good fun anyway. I didn't want to turn this thing into a science experiment, it was more like a joke.

Anyway, just to answer your post, PC, I did ask my friend what type of Kinmans were in the guitar and he said "Traditionals." He, himself, didn't know what exact year they were, or didn't remember or care. (I guess some people aren't as obsessive about gear as we are). He's a busy NYC musician and I didn't want to press the issue.

If you guys "smell something funny," just pull a SRV "what's that smell face" and play the blues....... through regular single coils or noiseless....

[Tele-Bob]

Rough crowd huh?

I love those pedals. DigiDrek and SRV Tone! LOL!

[GhostofJimi]

Rough crowd huh?

I love those pedals. DigiDrek and SRV Tone! LOL!

Tell me about it dude!

This kinda reminds me of when people used to argue on a pedal Forum I hang out on about which JRC5445 Chips (or whatever) were better: the ones from Micronesia made in Jan. 1981 vs. the ones manufactured in Malaysia in May 1982, or some such nonsense!!! No worries though!

[Tele-Bob]

Nah, no worries. These guys here are the best. Very knowlegable and very quick to help when help is required. The fact that they're sarcastic dumbasses is just the icing on the cake!

[Kap'n]

Mmmm..., Slow hand god cream.

better than slow god hand cream!

[tonemonkey]

Not as good as:

hand cream? Slow! God!!!!! God!!!!!!!!!!!GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

the song of a hand job!

[refin]

[QUOTE=stratcat62]I have Kinman Woodstocks in one of my strats. I bought them for the tone and versality and consider the absence of hum a plus. Normally, I have some part of one of my hands in contact with the strings and have never had a problem with the hum.

FWIW... ;) touching the strings can reduce "buzz",but not 60 cycle hum.

[dafack01]

From my experience with a Kinman Broadcaster pickup, it didn't sound compressed at all. It had all of the air and space of a single coil, only without the hum.

My beef with them is that they sound too "perfected".

But they are great pickups, just not for me.

[Dr Fene]

Wonder if anyone could tell the difference between 60 vs 50 cycle hum?

(UK 240v 50Hz) v (US 110v 60Hz)

[tonemonkey]

I already asked that one, albeit in a more roundabout manner, then veering off the point, so basically in a perfectly normal post for me.

I guess we're just at a lower frequency over here Doc, but for me it's a vastly less annoying one that it seems the 60hz is to our colonial cousins ( ;) ).

[Kap'n]

Wonder if anyone could tell the difference between 60 vs 50 cycle hum?

(UK 240v 50Hz) v (US 110v 60Hz)

Aboslutely. 60Hz is more of an "ahhhhh," and 50Hz is more of an "uhhhhh." There's a 20% frequency difference - that's got to be more than a whole tone.

[teleman1]

There is a guy named SMARK at FDP. HE is a Kinman authority. He has the new mk-II and has very high praise. Check the thread out. ANy of the sterotypes about Kinamn PU's has been removed form this PU and itis<9according to hi,) the real deal with vintage sound..

[Dr Fene]

Sorry Tonemonkey I should have read the WHOLE thread.


Enjoyed the site/music BTW!

[detuned]

IIRC, there's a Kinman expert over here too...

I think his name's Chris.... something.

:-P

[Kap'n]

Hmmmm. Jimi's ghost seems to have disappeared.

[tonemonkey]

Glad you liked it Dr F!

All done with noisy pickups by the way!

[bluesfreak68]

Hmmm... seems like you are much more exposed to Electrical Radiation here in the US than we are in Europe. At least my guitar hums more when I am here in the US with it...
I have shielded all my strats with Alumnium or Copper Foil on the PG and Graphite Laquer in the Control Caveats. So far I only experience extensive hum if I sit down directly in front of the Amps or if I am very close to stage lights. A simple twist seems to cure that quick ( I mostly run and jump around the stage anyway...) ...
So far I can only add experience with Lace Sensors and 7ender Noiseless PUPs, both aren't the real thing for me. I got somewhat impressed by the new SCN PUPs while attending a 7ender Clinic with Greg Koch but I haven't had a chance to make a good comparism.
Time for a shootout....

cu
bluesfreak