Original 57 Strat...

[Aular]

In this matter I have to agree with 56Strat, I have looked for that nice CS Fender and up until today I'm still looking, back in '02 I was in 30th street guitars in NYC when this dude came in with a beat to shit '64 strat with the ugliest nail polish like refin I have seen, he was asking $ 500 which obviously I paid on the spot, my first vintage, after a good set up this ugly duck sounded just amazing, I have to say that the sustain, ring, and warmth this guitar has is awesome, I still play that guitar though. 3 Months ago I bought a mint 63 and the minute I plugged it in I was in shock because of how good it sounded, now I'm a guitar addict and I was into Tom Anderson, Schecters, Sadowsky and whatever boutique guitar maker was out there and bught them all too until a bought that 64. at this point I have a played a shitload of Strats too and I have found 2 kinds of strats the thin sounding one and the rich, agressive strat, they are just different but not bad at all. My 63 has that agressive sound while my 64 is more on the thinner sound but god....they don't sound like the Custom Shops and that much I can say, and to top it all off, 2 weeks ago I bought my '58 LP junior and compared it back to back with my 03 Historic and the 58' screams and again the sustain is just unreal, this is the reason why I will never buy a brand new guitar and of course as long as I can afford it.

[Aular]

And BTW you can go George Gruhn's web site, click on news letter and read everything he has to say just so you know where he stands, whether he stopped buying vintage Strats...well that's is a business decision he has made 'cause there's a sea of vintage dealer out there and as far as I'm concerned they're all doing pretty well, actually I can say he's losing out but to each his own.

[RychusRkr]

The main thing I agree with Gravity on is the incredible overpricing of the vingage strat. Great guitars, tone machines, mojo and aging magic can't be argued, overpriced, I think so, but obviously others dont because someone's is paying for these things.
However, Grav' you sound like the ultimate unbelieving skeptic.
It seems like there are 2 ends of the spectrum: blind faith to the point of gullibility and then you have total scepticism and questioning of everything that cannot be absolutely proven in the reasoning realm. When you pick up that old strat and your heart jumps a beat and that woody tone just oozes out of the amp, no you cant prove beyond the shadow of a doubt someone didnt forge those 'Pat Pending' saddles and make the guitar from fake parts with fake stamps and artificial aging but it's one of those things you just know in your heart. You know this is the real thing, your heart your hand and you ears tell you, man you just believe. It's indescrible, intagible, thats why people call it mojo or magic tho it's really neither. It's like the old harley T-shirt that says "If I have to explain to you, you wouldnt understand".

[DoubleBoogie]

Seriously... how can you even have an intelligent discussion about this when the owner of an all-original 50s Strat has actually stated in this very thread that there is a "magical aging process" that makes some (but not ALL) old guitars sound better? I mean... c'mon. "Magic?"

Well...all I can tell you is that I have done graduate study work in mechanical engineering analyzing guitar top vibrations. There has been a LOT of study done in this area in an attempt to make a new acoustic guitar or violin sound like a great old one. The basic conclusions that scientists have come to is that the making of an instrument is very critical but that aging definitely improves overall tonal response of stringed musical instruments of all types. If an instrument is made well with good tone woods, aging improves it....plain and simple. If it is made poorly or with poor tone woods, it will improve, but it can still be a bad old instrument. I used the term magic because in the scientific community there is no hard evidence to support why this is the case. Nevertheless, this is a well shared conclusion among those that have studied this subject in great detail. If you want to be a "hard ass" about it then be my guest. But it really shows your ignorance of the subject when you go off on others with statements like above when you don't have a clue who you're talking to as well as a very apparent lack of technical knowledge in this area.

[DoubleBoogie]

DoubleBoogie

P the control cavity and pots, headstock, etc. I love these old guitars.

OK, Here is a closeup shot of the headstock. You see a lot of the red fibers from the case on this shot. I'll post some more of the control cavity when I get a chance.

[RychusRkr]

wow great pics DB. Are those red fibers embedded in the finish??? weird!
DB, if you could, shrink those pics down a little before posting, kind of a pain to scroll to have to see it all.

[Tonefiend]

Ask the refin guys how many "refins" are actually refins. It's commonplace these days for a shitty home refin job on a warmoth body to suddenly become a badly refinished and butchered '50s or '60s guitar simply because it has a few old parts slapped on it!

People believe what they want to believe and everyone is looking for that good deal.

There are only 2 guys who I would trust 100% to authenticate this stuff. One of them happens to be the best refinisher in the business and has been doing it since the '70s.

[DoubleBoogie]

wow great pics DB. Are those red fibers embedded in the finish??? weird!
DB, if you could, shrink those pics down a little before posting, kind of a pain to scroll to have to see it all.

Nah, it's just a little dusty from the case. When I can get some more pics, I'll shrink them some. I have a pretty crappy digital camera and when I shrink the pictures, the software I have tends to distort them.

[DoubleBoogie]

Ask the refin guys how many "refins" are actually refins. It's commonplace these days for a shitty home refin job on a warmoth body to suddenly become a badly refinished and butchered '50s or '60s guitar simply because it has a few old parts slapped on it!

People believe what they want to believe and everyone is looking for that good deal.

There are only 2 guys who I would trust 100% to authenticate this stuff. One of them happens to be the best refinisher in the business and has been doing it since the '70s.

If you would, let me know who these guys are. While I have had one guy tell me its a real one, I would like to get a few more opinions concerning the body and the somewhat odd faded color.

[daddyo]

I'll throw my non-expert opinion in on the sound od old vs new. I can't comment on Gravity Jim's ascertion regarding the quantity of old strats that are actually fake. I believe that the reason that old guitars sound different than new models of the same guitar is that the old guitars were finished in real lacquer that, over time, breathes and lets the wood dry out. I also believe that the alder and ash used in the 50s and early sixties was 1st growth and better wood. As a carpenter, I can atest that 1st growth wood is structurally sounder with a denser, straighter grain pattern tha newer wood grown on tree farms. Another reason is the pickups were hand wound so some pick ups were midling, some good and some were great. The human variable added enough of a wildcard that some pickups have a magical sound. I believe the two previous points are even more true with the Les Pauls as mahogany is a more demanding wood and LPs have more of it. This debate raged on on the LP Forum regarding these same things. Lastly, I think that a Darwinian selection took place with better sounding guitars getting better treatment and care and the lesser guitars sliding down the ladder till they were abused/destroyed/Kahlerized/Van Halenized, etc, Even in the old days, musicians realized that not all strats were equal. Eric Clapton's story about parting out and mixing and matching a bunch of late 50s strats is convincing evidence. Not every guitar was magic so he took the magic parts and combined them.

[DoubleBoogie]

I'll throw my non-expert opinion in on the sound od old vs new. I can't comment on Gravity Jim's ascertion regarding the quantity of old strats that are actually fake. I believe that the reason that old guitars sound different than new models of the same guitar is that the old guitars were finished in real lacquer that, over time, breathes and lets the wood dry out. I also believe that the alder and ash used in the 50s and early sixties was 1st growth and better wood. As a carpenter, I can atest that 1st growth wood is structurally sounder with a denser, straighter grain pattern tha newer wood grown on tree farms. Another reason is the pickups were hand wound so some pick ups were midling, some good and some were great. The human variable added enough of a wildcard that some pickups have a magical sound. I believe the two previous points are even more true with the Les Pauls as mahogany is a more demanding wood and LPs have more of it. This debate raged on on the LP Forum regarding these same things. Lastly, I think that a Darwinian selection took place with better sounding guitars getting better treatment and care and the lesser guitars sliding down the ladder till they were abused/destroyed/Kahlerized/Van Halenized, etc, Even in the old days, musicians realized that not all strats were equal. Eric Clapton's story about parting out and mixing and matching a bunch of late 50s strats is convincing evidence. Not every guitar was magic so he took the magic parts and combined them.

Excellent post!

[muzikman7]

There Is Nothing I Enjoy More, Than To Arrive At My Palatial P.O.S Mobile Estate. I Don My Favorite Velvet Smoking Jacket, Put On A Pair Of Slippers. Pour A Glass Of My Favorite Box O Wine, And Light A Fifty Dollar Cigar. Then I Go To My Temperature Controlled Guitar Vault And Pull Out Either My $150,000 Les Paul ( Made Out Of The Tree That Grew In Les Paul,s Mothers Backyard ) Or My $30,000 Stratocaster ( The One Leo Used To Play Smoking A Butt Sitting On The Crapper At The Fender Factory ).You Know The Good Life. But In Reality, I,ve Never Bought A Guitar To Look At Or Play Only At Home. If I Can,t Use It On The Road Without The Worry Of Some Creep Trying To Steal It Then What Good Is It. They Are Ment To Be Tools, Not Art Objects. That Being Said, I Have Nothing Against Collecting If That Is What Makes You Happy. Imho, It Appears That This Whole Vintage Thing Is Way Out Of Control. The Whole Purpose Of The Vintage Reissue Thing Was, That Famous Musicians Were Worried That Some Fanatic Would Go To No Ends To Steal Their Instrument Or To Replace An Instrument That They Wore Out From Performing. To Me If You Can Afford To Purchase A $30,000 Dollar Guitar Do It And Enjoy, Myself I,d Rather Not Have To Worry About That Sort Of Thing, Thats Not What Playing Guitar Is About. It,s About Music, And I,m Not Saying That You Should Start Buying Cheap Guitars ( You Could Be Just Like Estaban Lol ) There Are A Lot Of Nice Reissue Strats And Les Pauls Available For A Lot Less Money, And Yes I Know All Of Vintage Vibe And Tone Opinions Old Wood Etc. But If You Have To Hire An Uzi Toting Guard Every Time You Take It Out Of The Vault What,s The Point. It,s More Ability Than The Guitar Anyway If You Can,t Play It, A $130,000 Les Paul Or A $30,000 Stratocaster Is Not Going To Help You. Have Fun, Make Your Guitar Vintage By Playing The Heck Out Of It. And For You Collectors Of Vintage With A Ton Of Disposible Income, Help A Fellow Musician ( Me ) I Have A Small Wish List. And I,ll Even Let You Hang Out With The Band, And You Can See Me Perform With The Bass You Bought Me. Ok It,s A Deal Then I,m Waiting Patiently To Hear From You. Thank You Tony

[daddyo]

Your preferences are entirely beside the point. I was addressing the issue of is there any scientific evidence that a vintage guitar could sound better. Not could a good musician make a MIM sound better than a poor musician playing David Gilmore's #1.

[DoubleBoogie]

There Is Nothing I Enjoy More, Than To Arrive At My Palatial P.O.S Mobile Estate. I Don My Favorite Velvet Smoking Jacket, Put On A Pair Of Slippers. Pour A Glass Of My Favorite Box O Wine, And Light A Fifty Dollar Cigar. Then I Go To My Temperature Controlled Guitar Vault And Pull Out Either My $150,000 Les Paul ( Made Out Of The Tree That Grew In Les Paul,s Mothers Backyard ) Or My $30,000 Stratocaster ( The One Leo Used To Play Smoking A Butt Sitting On The Crapper At The Fender Factory ).You Know The Good Life. But In Reality, I,ve Never Bought A Guitar To Look At Or Play Only At Home. If I Can,t Use It On The Road Without The Worry Of Some Creep Trying To Steal It Then What Good Is It. They Are Ment To Be Tools, Not Art Objects. That Being Said, I Have Nothing Against Collecting If That Is What Makes You Happy. Imho, It Appears That This Whole Vintage Thing Is Way Out Of Control. The Whole Purpose Of The Vintage Reissue Thing Was, That Famous Musicians Were Worried That Some Fanatic Would Go To No Ends To Steal Their Instrument Or To Replace An Instrument That They Wore Out From Performing. To Me If You Can Afford To Purchase A $30,000 Dollar Guitar Do It And Enjoy, Myself I,d Rather Not Have To Worry About That Sort Of Thing, Thats Not What Playing Guitar Is About. It,s About Music, And I,m Not Saying That You Should Start Buying Cheap Guitars ( You Could Be Just Like Estaban Lol ) There Are A Lot Of Nice Reissue Strats And Les Pauls Available For A Lot Less Money, And Yes I Know All Of Vintage Vibe And Tone Opinions Old Wood Etc. But If You Have To Hire An Uzi Toting Guard Every Time You Take It Out Of The Vault What,s The Point. It,s More Ability Than The Guitar Anyway If You Can,t Play It, A $130,000 Les Paul Or A $30,000 Stratocaster Is Not Going To Help You. Have Fun, Make Your Guitar Vintage By Playing The Heck Out Of It. And For You Collectors Of Vintage With A Ton Of Disposible Income, Help A Fellow Musician ( Me ) I Have A Small Wish List. And I,ll Even Let You Hang Out With The Band, And You Can See Me Perform With The Bass You Bought Me. Ok It,s A Deal Then I,m Waiting Patiently To Hear From You. Thank You Tony

Anybody that writes something this long and goes to the trouble to capitalize every word definitely has some issues! :rofl Your point is certainly valid though. If you can't play the heck out of it and enjoy it, it certainly limits any benefits of owning such an instrument. I guess that means when your long lost uncle dies and wills his mint '59 sunburst Les Paul to you, you will promptly sell it to avoid the hassles of ownership, huh?

[Cogs]

Really like that Shift key, eh?:hee

[Nathan Kwok]

I think it would be really interesting to setup some kind of an experiment with say, 25 real, verified '50s and early '60s strats, and 25 of the finest replicas, and do a blind test with various vintage guitar experts and see how well they can identify that fakes. If older guitars, by virtue of the passage of time, really do obtain a certain quality to them that is identifiable, then I would think the experts would be able to identify correctly at least 80% of the time if not more. I wonder what would happen to the vintage guitar market if this test was done and all the experts could do on average was 50% (ie they can't tell the difference).

[DoubleBoogie]

I think it would be really interesting to setup some kind of an experiment with say, 25 real, verified '50s and early '60s strats, and 25 of the finest replicas, and do a blind test with various vintage guitar experts and see how well they can identify that fakes. If older guitars, by virtue of the passage of time, really do obtain a certain quality to them that is identifiable, then I would think the experts would be able to identify correctly at least 80% of the time if not more. I wonder what would happen to the vintage guitar market if this test was done and all the experts could do on average was 50% (ie they can't tell the difference).

That would be an interesting test for sure! If what your suggesting would really happen (only 50% get it right), it might put a dent in the market, but there are still going to be those that can't be convinced. On the other hand, if 80% did correctly identify them, there will still be those like Gravity Jim that think that the whole vintage fascination thing is all hog wash and that the new ones sound and play as good or better than the old ones. I'll still put the tone of mine up against any of them.

[Aular]

Him and a whole lot of people, the funny thing is that this thread started with a simple question that couldn't get a simple answer...LOL, all you got was bullets from a few guys telling you DIE YOU VINTAGE DIE...LOL

[DoubleBoogie]

Him and a whole lot of people, the funny thing is that this thread started with a simple question that couldn't get a simple answer...LOL, all you got was bullets from a few guys telling you DIE YOU VINTAGE DIE...LOL

:rofl Yep. Didn't mean to put a burr under anyone's saddle. I simply thought a lot folks would enjoy seeing pics of an old Strat.

[Cogs]

Like me
-thx

[DoubleBoogie]

Like me
-thx

Glad you like them. I think what some people seem to miss is the fact that to me, certain models of Fender and Gibson guitars are like sex. The worst I ever had was wonderful.... Whether they are cool old vintage axes or cool new ones that look and sound great, I can't get enough of them.

[muzikman7]

Hi, Yes Thank You For The Photos. Good Post Tony

[Tonefiend]

If you would, let me know who these guys are. While I have had one guy tell me its a real one, I would like to get a few more opinions concerning the body and the somewhat odd faded color.

Scott Lentz, and Joe Ganzler. If you happen to be in So. Cal feel free to bring it by the shop.

[kthesheep]

nice pics thanks for sharing.

[DoubleBoogie]

Scott Lentz, and Joe Ganzler. If you happen to be in So. Cal feel free to bring it by the shop.

Sorry, but I'm in the Southeast. I'm sure Joe's views would be right on.

[Brassnut]

--interesting to an experiment with say, 25 real, verified '50s and early '60s strats, and 25 of the finest replicas

I think the point Gravidy Jim was making was that the 25 finest replicas ARE the 25 real Strats now.

I used to know a guy that stood his 71 strat up next to his stereo speakers so the bass notes would vibrate it. That's where it stayed as a home. He claimed that the vibrating of the notes put "all the molecules in the right order" or something to that affect. Of course, as he said this he was taking his 6th big bong hit.

[Brassnut]

I just saw this site in a thread asking about decals. and had a look around his site. I have no clue what the japanese charactors mean but in the third or clock spotted these! Look at all the old MAGIC in these REAL vintage guitars.

http://www.strato-crazy.com/54Strato.htm









Jesus Christ and he is showing these details as some sort of validating point? Vintage guys who buy this crap deserve to get stung.

[lasher]

hmmm, i don't understand what you mean by that statement. the one photo of the body/neckpocket/neck angle is absolutely correct for a 54 strat.

[Aular]

The first photo with the Fender decal looks funky

[Aular]

Sorry, I forgot to say why.., the 2 letter E of FENDER have a rounder edge on the top, it should be sharp and pointy.

[kthesheep]

hmmm, i don't understand what you mean by that statement. the one photo of the body/neckpocket/neck angle is absolutely correct for a 54 strat.

I'm not sure either?
I have done business with HI Guitars in Japan
I think he is straight
Check out his site some of the pics are cool

http://www.strato-crazy.com/Content.htm

If he's good enough for Steven Seagal
I guess I'm in

[stratcat62]

Ah, the debate rages on. Vintage vs new. I own a 62 strat that came into my possession in 1968 (believe it or not I traded an EH LPB-1 for the strat, a black face Fender Bassman and Dual Showman cabinet). When I got the guitar it, the body had been sanded to bare wood (swamp ash) which I hand rubbed tongue oil into and it has stayed that way since. For whatever reason, aged tone wood or tongue oil finish, this guitar has a sweet tone that I've never been able to duplicate on another guitar. One sweet spot and the rest okay. That is why my current number one is a 2004 Am. Deluxe with ash body fitted with Kinman Woodstocks. True, this guitar doesn't have quite that sweet spot (neck pickup), but has a much better playing neck (for my rather small hands), greater tonal versitality and a pretty sweet neck pickup as well.

I believe there is something special about some vintage guitars, but for a working instrument I'll keep what I have and leave the old one home. As to the fakes etc, it's always been a let the buyer beware market.

[auger]

Is that the real Steven Seagal or a look-alike?

[kthesheep]

Is that the real Steven Seagal or a look-alike?

It's him.
He showed up at a recording studio I was at a few years back to finish his recording contract. Pretty good player and has some cool gear.

[Cogs]

...he is showing these details as some sort of validating point? Vintage guys who buy this crap deserve to get stung.

If you can't read what he has written then how do you know what he is trying to say? :%
Maybe he is giving examples of fake guitars & how to identify them.

[DoubleBoogie]

I'm not sure either?
I have done business with HI Guitars in Japan
I think he is straight
Check out his site some of the pics are cool

http://www.strato-crazy.com/Content.htm

If he's good enough for Steven Seagal
I guess I'm in

Wow! Thanks for that link. Two of the 57's that are shown as sold(especially the last 2-tone sunburst 1-57 date) looks virtually identical to mine with respect to the neck and body date markings and the internals.

[RychusRkr]

Wow what a cool thread!
That guy is posing with the Steven Seagal wax figure. The same one they use in the movies, well his acting could be done by wax figures anyway.
I do concur with Musikman, unfortunatly for the normal player, these elite collectors, (wanted to use more derogatory term, but some of you might be one) have driven the price of old guitars to the point of ridiculousness. Man we should be thankful to fender for producing the reissues and Custom Shop Time Machine series. You can get most of the vibe and tone out of one that you can get out of a vintage at a fraction of the cost and without the issues. I'm in on that. (and out on $15,000 guitars... sheesh).

ok its time for me to:
Shut up 'n play yer guitar!!!!!!