tele pickups (another thread)

[omni]

okay. i have kinman 60's in my tele at the moment. i think they are great (the strat woodstocks are amazing) but i dont know if they are for me. i breifly had some texas specials (stock) before the upgrade but i got rid of them - i needed the $$. i found the txsp bridge quite hot but still nice and raw. The txsp neck was nice and warm/fat. i think i want something like the texas specials. so please shoot me some brands to consider. I hear everyone talk about van zandt, hammel(how do i get info on these??), voodoo's, fender range/....but what do you all think. im after an early 50's sound. nothing too hot but nice, raw and a warm neck. understand :)

just to add. i recently got the jeff buckley live at sin e cd and really want that tone. it describes exactly what i have in mind. Lots of bite, fat, warm, twang, punch...ahh....i think ill go play some guitar now. :)


thanks.

omni

[Tele-Bob]

I would first take a couple hours to explore the height settings of your Kinman's. They are extremely sensitive to height adjustment and will not yield their optimum tone until the "sweet spot" is found. If you have already done that, (be honest now, most have not), and you are still dissatisfied, then I would suggest Fender Vintage '52 p'ups. Not only do they sound great, but they're cheap and besides, Fender is the brand that created "the sound".

[jim in texas]

What model is your tele?

[curtisstetka]

If you were after a 50s sound, why not get the avn48's?

I've got a tele with avn60s and another with avn48s. All bases are covered.

[fezz parka]

You won't get a 50's sound out of Kinmans. There is something about them in the 3.5 to 4 khz range that simply annoys me. Same thing with most "noiseless" single coils. They just don't float my boat. They're kinda like modelling amps... They're 80% of what real single coils sound like.

Is this guitar your TL52-86TX ? You could try T-Bob's suggestion with the OV's, or Nocasters, or SD Antiquity's. Jim will have some good suggestions as well.

[Don]

You won't get a 50's sound out of Kinmans...

They're 80% of what real single coils sound like.

I felt the same way about Kinman avn48s when I had them in my Tele.

They were nice, but not what I was after.

[jim in texas]

To me, early 50's = brass saddles, maple neck and flat pole pieces and there's lots of good pickups that will take you there.

The Fender '52 Replacement set's medium $$ and gets the job done nicely or, you can spend more and get a set of Nocasters or Antiquity's. I haven't heard the Jeff Buckly CD you mentioned but I know that he played an older butterscotch tele. Any of these pickups will get you close to that sound if you have a 50's style tele.

Your amp's going to figure into the equation, especially if you're after a specific sound.

[Kelsey]

It is very tough to beat the Fender CS Nocaster set or the SD Antiquity set for vintage Tele pickups. I have one of each in my Teles, and they really are excellent, as well as RWRP so you get at least one hum-free place to hide.

[omni]

thanks for the suggestions. i originally got the kinmans when i had an american rosewood, alder, sunburst tele. hence i didnt know what i wanted. the guitar i now have is a 52 reissue CIJ. ash, maple neck. the kinman 60's just seem like they have no mids or something. so yer i guess i want something that would sound like a 50's tele.

[jim in texas]

That's a really great piece to start with.

With a few dollars invested in the electrics and pickups, it will be a fantastic guitar.

I wish I had one of the 52's and the 60's model with the sunburst, rosewood board and binding really intrigues me.

You did good.

[NeoFauve]

FWIW- On Live at Sin-e', he's using a MIM Std toploader, which I think was borrowed. Looking at CD booklet, he plugged into a Fender amp about the size of a Deluxe, maybe smaller. Great sound. Crisp but meaty.
Awesome record!

If you don't have the 2-disc Legacy Edition, GET IT.
There's also a short DVD.

[omni]

wow i always thought jeffs guitar was a late fifties ( I read that some time ago) but after looking around a bit just now it appears to be a late 80's or ealry 90's MIM toploader like you say.

[frank thomson]

.....and the 60's model with the sunburst, rosewood board and binding really intrigues me.


.

that gives me wood! :ahem

[dafack01]

You won't get a 50's sound out of Kinmans. There is something about them in the 3.5 to 4 khz range that simply annoys me. Same thing with most "noiseless" single coils. They just don't float my boat. They're kinda like modelling amps... They're 80% of what real single coils sound like.

Make that three. The kinmans just never did sound right. It's like they sound SOOOOOOO hard to try to sound like a single coil that they sound TOO perfect. They just sound Hi-Fi ish to me too.

[Chris Kinman]

I keep seeing comments by fezz parka about this 3-4KHz thing that annoys him so much. I believe I know what he is referring to, it's the strident midrange frequencies that eminate from the 'A' string in particular and almost exclusively on the bridge pickup when picked hard. I have observed the same thing in regular single coils too but no one had ever complained to me about it, not even Hank Marvin when I broached the subject with him years ago.

I seem to have a knack of extracting that objectionable sound when other players simply didn't hear it and played on regardless. It's a sound that has long intrigued me and urged me to discover a solution for. With my new generation bridge pickups (AVn-69b and AVn-62b for Strats) I beleive I have reduced the effect to acceptable level. At least it is to me. I will now gradually apply the technique to my other bridge pickups.

[Chris Kinman]

dafack01, I hear your comments too. I believe you are refering to the exceptional string balance that I engineer in my pickups. Regular single coils have prominent or should I say dominant 'G' string output level which causes the pickup to sound ragged and edgy. Balanced 'G' string cause the pickup to sound overall smoother. Some hear this as HiFi simply because they are not accustomed to it.

If I am mistaken and you are referring to actual TONE then you are basing your comments on products that have long since been upgraded and improved. The latest generation sounds from my improved versions are every bit as interesting and perhaps more so than regular single coils.

[Tele-Bob]

I concur. Every time I play my Kinman equipped Strat in a live setting many of the other guitarists come over with compliments on my sound.

[fezz parka]

I keep seeing comments by fezz parka about this 3-4KHz thing that annoys him so much. I believe I know what he is referring to, it's the strident midrange frequencies that eminate from the 'A' string in particular and almost exclusively on the bridge pickup when picked hard.

That's pretty much it. The thing about your pickups that accentuates this (as opposed to regular single coils) is the exceptional string balance you speak of. There's nothing "hiding" it.

FWIW, of all the "noiseless" single coils out there, your's get the best marks from me. But, as I have said, I like my electromagnetic induction the old fashioned way.:yay

[Cottage]

Hey folks. What do you think of the Fender "Hot" Vintage pickups. I've got a Texas Special they came stock with. The bridge is great, although the neck leaves something to be desired. Thinking of a mini-hum there.

[dafack01]

dafack01, I hear your comments too. I believe you are refering to the exceptional string balance that I engineer in my pickups. Regular single coils have prominent or should I say dominant 'G' string output level which causes the pickup to sound ragged and edgy. Balanced 'G' string cause the pickup to sound overall smoother. Some hear this as HiFi simply because they are not accustomed to it.

If I am mistaken and you are referring to actual TONE then you are basing your comments on products that have long since been upgraded and improved. The latest generation sounds from my improved versions are every bit as interesting and perhaps more so than regular single coils.

The analogy I like to use is that it's like listening to vynl vs. Compact Disc.

Compared to regular single coils, your pickups sound razor-quick (like a CD). Almost unnaturally quick reflexes. Too "perfect" to me. All twang and no meat and fat like what you get with a regular single coil.

I agree with Fezz, though. Your pickups by far are the best noiseless pickups out there, and I commend you. They do twang like a tele, sound like a single coil, and don't hum. You have the best noiseless product by far.

[Chris Kinman]

>>All twang and no meat and fat like what you get with a regular single coil.

Actually I thought single coils were not fat and meaty but rather skinny and weedy. What single coils specifically are you referring to? And when did you last hear a set of Kinman's, which model and what year was that?

[dafack01]

>>All twang and no meat and fat like what you get with a regular single coil.

Actually I thought single coils were not fat and meaty but rather skinny and weedy. What single coils specifically are you referring to? And when did you last hear a set of Kinman's, which model and what year was that?

I didn't actually mean fat and meaty like a humbucker. I meant twang with all of the imperfections. Maybe that was a bad analogy. I'm talking about regular telecaster single coils vs. a year old kinman AVn-48.

They twang and have all the air and articulation of a single coil, but they sound too "perfect". Like I said, they sound unnaturally precise.

Vynl vs. Compact disc would be a better analogy.

Yes vynl cracks and hisses, but it sounds so much warmer. CD's don't hum and are insanely precise in their sound reproduction.

Same with me and single-coils vs. noiseless. Single coils hum and sound warmer to me while your pickups don't hum but are extremely precise in their sound reproduction.

[fezz parka]

I meant twang with all of the imperfections.

Right on Dustin! Sometimes the "imperfection" is the perfection.:yay

[curtisstetka]

Zealots!

[sabby]

Right on Dustin! Sometimes the "imperfection" is the perfection.:yay

We're in the "no better, no worst" territory of preference at this point. I was really attached to the "warts and all" quality of single coils for a long time. The fact that I like my Kinmans so much surprised the hell out of me.

I think the imperfections of single coils are sort of like safety blankets. I'm not at all sure that traditional single coils or Kinmans sound at all different at playing levels -- unless your standing next to a neon sign. But feeling good's the point. So if single-coil hum feels like warmth -- and the warmth of an LP is really the sound of friction as needle meets vinyl -- that's enough reason to never switch. Clutch that blanky, man!

To my ears, what's overly perfect about Kinmans is far outweighed by what sounds to me like a bit more guts and dynamic range. I actually had to get used to their eveness and quiteness. Now I don't hear it.

But I'm just another .

[sabby]

I keep seeing comments by fezz parka about this 3-4KHz thing that annoys him so much. I believe I know what he is referring to, it's the strident midrange frequencies that eminate from the 'A' string in particular and almost exclusively on the bridge pickup when picked hard. ...

... With my new generation bridge pickups (AVn-69b and AVn-62b for Strats) I beleive I have reduced the effect to acceptable level. At least it is to me. I will now gradually apply the technique to my other bridge pickups.

So are your Tele pickups pre- or post-this development?

[Chris Kinman]

Thanks dafack, that explains a few things. See, I have strived to identify the imperfections of single coils and engineer solutions into my products. Of course hum (noise) being the main one, but I also found solutions for string pull, string output imbalance and some other things as well. >>> your pickups don't hum and are extremely precise in their sound reproduction<<< That's what I set out to achieve, thanks for saying so.

While many players appreciate these refinements I know they are not for everyone, only the folks who get annoyed by the imperfections like I do. Actually I find it fascinating that some folks, like yourself, actually like the very things I set out to solve.

I can actually make pickups that have the imperfections but still noiseless, but I never envisaged that anyone would want something like that. Just goes to show don't it!!! Oh well to each his own.

[Chris Kinman]

To sabby, you said >>>To my ears, what's overly perfect about Kinmans is far outweighed by what sounds to me like a bit more guts and dynamic range. I actually had to get used to their eveness and quiteness. Now I don't hear it.

AhahahhahHa ,,,, we are on the same wavelength. Thanks for appreciating.

I will make the change / improvement this week to my Tele bridge pickups as well as the rest of my Strat bridge pickups. It seems that's one imperfection that even the players who like imperfections don't like ahahHahahHah go figure.

[Unburst]

I have Kinmans in my Tele that i replaced Texes Specials with and I agree that they lack a little something.

If they weren't noiseless I doubt that I would keep them.
They sound good and sure are quiet but they don't have quite the raw, open brashness that the TS had.

[dafack01]

That's what I set out to achieve, thanks for saying so.

You're welcome. You DO make a GREAT product. Your pickups are FAR AND AWAY the best of the noiseless bunch. Heck, they're some of the best pickups out there.

I find myself being able to throw Kinman in the same breath with Fralin, Voodoo, Hamel, Antiquity, etc.....

If noiseless is a requirement, there really IS no other option than you, IMO.

My preference, though, is for a good 'ol humming single coil.

[fezz parka]

I think the imperfections of single coils are sort of like safety blankets... Clutch that blanky, man!

Not a security blanket at all. It's 40 years of experience, the last 20 as a professional musician, songwriter, and mastering engineer. Over the years I've tried out all the "improved" pickups over the years, (EMG's, Lace, Lawrence, Duncan, etc.) and keep coming back to traditional single coils because of the way they sound.

Check out this thread comparing CS Texas Teles vs. Fender vintage noiseless. The difference is stunning.

But the bottom line is to do what you dig. That's the only thing that matters.

[Chris Kinman]

So what I'm hearing is that some players want the warts and all characteristics of regular single coils, no improvements except maybe for no noise. Well my AVn-Traditional Mk-II Strat set takes a giant step in that direction but still has balanced string outputs and low string pull. I won't do anything about low string pull but any of my products can be ordered with traditional magnet stagger to get that raw single coil sound with G string dominance. I think some die hards will be surpised with this set.

[Tele-Bob]

It's like guys that ride Harleys with loud straight pipes. It's really dumb, but a lot of guys do it. There is no rational explanation for it and the aftermaket simply gives them what they want. The bike is loud, rude, and performs noticably worse than with a nice, refined, 2 into 1 system but, most Harley riders don't want to hear about it. They want their loud, crude, unrefined, obnoxious, performance robbing straight pipes. It makes no sense at all, but the business people who can get past the absurdity of it make a lot of money selling cheap, crappy exhaust pipes at huge profit margins.

[fezz parka]

So what I'm hearing is that some players want the warts and all characteristics of regular single coils, no improvements except maybe for no noise.

Yep, that's me.

Let me know when you apply the MkII specs to a Tele set. I do most of my shopping at TruTone Music in Santa Monica ( That's where I've purchased your pickups in the past) and I'd love to give these a whirl when they're ready.

[sabby]

But the bottom line is to do what you dig. That's the only thing that matters.

I'm with on this -- I was being too cute with the safety blanket comment to be understood.

FWIW, my point of reference is the MKII Kinmans. When I listened to your Fender VN vs CS comparison, I wonderedhow Fender VN would stack against the MKIIs. I was a committed Fralin guy snce I got my first set about ten years ago (though I'm sure there are other great hand-wounds out there). I've HATED every other noiseless I encountered. Chris has made me a believer, though.

[Chris Kinman]

OK sure fezz parka. But because my Tele design is way different to my Strat design the same performance changes can not be acheived by the same means. I do have some ideas rattling around but it's gonna be a while before they see the light of day.

FYI I recently stopped selling to dealers in the US because our Dollar gained over 20% in value. That meant making a loss selling to dealers so now I only sell Online.

[fezz parka]

I look forward to hearing 'em.

[Chris Kinman]

fezz parker, I am curious to know if the 3KHz thing you keep referring to is present in this clip on anothet thread titled "Coolest post I ever made" courtesy of onetube. I suspect this is an AVn-62 in the neck position.

And dafack01 does the same comment about CD quality apply?

http://www.digitalsoundplanet.com/M...8_000023140.mp3
If this link doesn't work go to the thread, it's the 3rd post from the bottom.

[fezz parka]

Yep, it's there. But it could be the close micing as well as the EQ on the amp.

I tell you what. Over the weekend I'll pull out one of my old Strats and put down some solo neck pickup stuff that sounds good to me. I'll post it on Monday, and you tell me what you think. I may just be hearing things.

[Offshore Angler]

Chris, there are probably more guys like me and others that truly love all the imperfections of single coils than you think. I spent years trying different pickups and shimming necks and profiling frets to get that pefect sounding guitar. And on the one I finally got close to perfect, it became a soulless appliance ( he, he, Bob) that I never really got attached to. It was a Strat, and I think the exercise is what drove me to Telecasters. Next, I had a country twangmaster explain to me that string slap, a little buzzing, and pickups with "character" were a big part of the sound I liked. I had been going in exactly the wrong direction! So lately, I've pulled the old Strat out and got her "unperfect" and I'm amazed at how much better the old gal sounds. I don't want perfect pickups. I like single coil pickups with all their glorious imperfections. The VN's I'm using now are great because they still capture the single coil vibe with all the spikes and whatnot. Do they sound exactly like a vintage single coil? No. But they do sound good. And, since it must be written in the Constitution somewhere that every club owner must put at least two neon signs behind the stage, I like the noiseless deal.

I'm certainly not knocking your stuff though. I've never owned a guitar with your pickups, but I hear alot of people rave about them and the way you stand behind them.

Plus, I wouldn't have your job for all the tea in China. You're selling tone which is so totally subjective who's to say what's correct? For every schmuck like me that wants a snarly, bright, twangy guitar, there's another who wants one that sounds just like it does unplugged, only louder.