Why swap pups?

Ok, I have what may seem like a :da question to some but to me, the guitar illiterate, I have to ask. :D

I was listening to a sound clip of a strat with Kinmans and thought it sounded great. I then went to the Kinman site and loved the sound of the Kinman "blues" pups. I guess what I really liked was that the sample had that SRV tone.

I then got to wondering why so many swap out their pups in the first place. The Kinman site explains how those pups mimic SRV to the tee but SRV had fender pups in most of his guitars. Clapton is another who uses Fender pups if I'm not mistaken.

First of all I think one should find "their own' sound, but why get new pups to get the sound of someone who used stock pups?

I'm sure some have other reasons for switching pups but then again I'm sure they originally wanted a Strat for the "Strat tone" and I would think that's stock.



I'm confused.

Tommy



:blbros

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Originally Posted by StratmanBlues

First of all I think one should find "their own' sound, but why get new pups to get the sound of someone who used stock pups?

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http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/7...344_p36858.gif

The fact is, tone is in the pick.
This little nugget of wisdom got mis-repeated, and somehow people started spending all kind$ of loot on pickups.

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Originally Posted by NeoFauve

The fact is, tone is in the pick.
This little nugget of wisdom got mis-repeated, and somehow people started spending all kind$ of loot on pickups.

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You don't know how close you are. EE told me a story about picks, and it's pretty cool.

Fred Walecki gave EE a real tortoise shell pick and told him to use it on a session, but the trick was to use his regular pick while setting levels and such, then to switch to the tortoise shell pick and wait for the engineer to react. Well he reacted. Wanted to know what he was doing different, what setting on his amp was changed etc. And all he did was switch picks.:hee

Picks do make a BIG difference!

I feel it is most noticeable on an acoustic, but makes a difference on electric too.
Seriously. Try recording yourself on acoustic and try out different pick materials.
Big Change in attack, bloom and decay as well as tonal center.

Way back when, I had read in a Jimmy Page interview that he used Herco nylon picks. I'd never heard of them, but that was irrelevant. I looked all over for them.
The 1st time I went to NYC/48th St. with some high school pals I FOUND 'EM!! So I got like 10 of the gold ones. (that was a lot then)
They didn't help me at all. :rofl
I found them floppy and the edges were all rough. I gave most of them to a couple other guitar geeks in school. I put one down on a table in the cafeteria. It was like shaft of sunlight beamed down through the ceiling and illuminated it. "Whoa.... Hercos..."
Once they tried them, nobody thought they were any good.
Pretty damn funny. A bunch of damn teenaged lemmings.
But I don't think you can have much success getting your own sound, or do much with anyone else's if you're not comfortable and basically able to execute.

Back on topic, the reason someone might change to Kinman p'ups would be to get that SRV sound or whatever in a noiseless p'up. I play in a lot of different bars and in some of them, you simply cannot use standard single coil p'ups. I have heard guitars that actually hummed louder than the band. There are a lot of single coil p'ups that I like but simply can't get on with the hum so I use Kinmans. They sound great!

I too have sat in amazement at how many people will buy the latest boutique p'up to nail Jimi's tone when everyone knows Jimi used stock Strats with Fender p'ups. That's how you nail Jimi's tone! (if you can't come up with something of your own)

Don't you think it is possible to love the way a guitar feels, plays, and looks, but still feel the guitar is lacking something in the way it sounds when YOU play it, through your setup? Perhaps a lot of people do merely want to get the sound that SRV got, or that Clapton gets, but there are a host of people who want to keep the guitar they have, while changing something about the sound.

There are a lot of people out there who play vintage reissue Strats, and love everything about them, except that bridge pickup. I've known a host of Strat players who won't ever play the bridge pickup, alone, because they believe it to be too thin and weak. These players are primary candidates for a pickup change, something to make that bridge pickup be useful, by itself. If you can make that happen, suddenly, you have a more versatile Strat.

When a manufacturer selects pickups for a guitar, he chooses the pickups that he feels will satisfy a large percentage of the people who will pick up that particular model. The manufacturer can't possibly satisfy everyone -- tastes and other equipment are much too varied.

i swap pups in all of my guitars, to get my own sound. i usually give the stock ones a shot, but more often than not i swap. over the years i have found what works for me. all of my guitars are set up the same with the same strings, picks, and strap length. i don't always use the same pups, but i use several different types.

i've never called up to a booteek place and said i needed to sound like jimi or stevie or anyone else. i tell them what my sound is now, and what i want the pups to either increase or add to the tone.

i'm never going to sound like my heroes. i've given up on that a long time ago. i try any and all things to get my tone.

I swapped my stock MiM pickups because they just lacked vintage clarity, and most of all the high E string had a much lower volume than the rest of the stings.

My FMT came with Lace Gold Sensors, and that just did not cut it at all with me. But my new AmSer Strat sounds great with stock pickups and I'm going to keep it that way.

I love the feel of the guitars, but not the tone when I got them.. I'm not trying to nail anyone's sound; I don't have memory good enough to remember anybody's sound.. I just know what I like.

Reasonable responses, thanks.

You guys are great no matter what the rest of the web says :spin



Tommy



:blbros

While Fender and other mass-production places make some decent pickups, the boo-teek builders like Chris Kinman cater to the crowd that wants the absolute best materials, the tightest quality control, etc etc to produce something that no assembly line is able to produce.

Kinman's pickups are really something special as the price tag indicates...

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Originally Posted by curtisstetka

While Fender and other mass-production places make some decent pickups, the boo-teek builders like Chris Kinman cater to the crowd that wants the absolute best materials, the tightest quality control, etc etc to produce something that no assembly line is able to produce.

Kinman's pickups are really something special as the price tag indicates...

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Thanks, that makes good sense.

Tommy

I can only speak for myself. I changed pickups to get to the sound in my head, not to get Clapton's, or Stevie's, but to find mine . The stock pickups in my MIJ strat, did nothing for me, so I changed them. Simple thing is, if the stock ones make those hairs stand up, then keep them, otherwise find some better ones.

QUOTE::::""First of all I think one should find "their own' sound, but why get new pups to get the sound of someone who used stock pups?

I'm sure some have other reasons for switching pups but then again I'm sure they originally wanted a Strat for the "Strat tone" and I would think that's stock. ""
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I totally agree. I buy Fenders b/c I like fenders. If I replace pups, I replace them w/ USA Fenders'. In fact, I only have Fender pups in ALL my Fenders.

Another thing that confuses me is the *Don Grosh* "Fenders". If these guitars were so good, why is it based on a fender? The DG's should have thier own unique shape, also!.....But, no, it's IDENTICAL to a Fender but DG gets all the credit.

Sorry I don't get it! If I was Fender, I'd sue the piss outta all those knock-off companies!!!!!!!.....imnsho!

rant over.........for now.

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Originally Posted by StratmanBlues

Ok, I have what may seem like a :da question to some but to me, the guitar illiterate, I have to ask. :D

I was listening to a sound clip of a strat with Kinmans and thought it sounded great. I then went to the Kinman site and loved the sound of the Kinman "blues" pups. I guess what I really liked was that the sample had that SRV tone.

I then got to wondering why so many swap out their pups in the first place. The Kinman site explains how those pups mimic SRV to the tee but SRV had fender pups in most of his guitars. Clapton is another who uses Fender pups if I'm not mistaken.

First of all I think one should find "their own' sound, but why get new pups to get the sound of someone who used stock pups?

I'm sure some have other reasons for switching pups but then again I'm sure they originally wanted a Strat for the "Strat tone" and I would think that's stock.



I'm confused.

Tommy



:blbros

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Its called marketing pal!! They have imitation pickups, or `replacement` pickups, that mimic the assembly procedures of the old pu`s,and materials, and of course they wanna sell `em to you, so they tell you what they think you want to hear. `You`ll sound like SRV with these pu`s!!`Your absolutely right. Let your ears decide. My hat is off to Clapton for using what is basically off the shelf parts, combined with some custom touches, but his stuff is easy to come by. All except his hands and soul of course!! But then, you`ve got your own of those too!!

CT. :cool:

I can honestly say I've never "had a sound I heard in my head" and then went off to reproduce it. I tend to just try stuff and let it present itself to me. Then I decide if I like it or not. If I hear something I really like, I might try to refine it a bit.

i hear sounds in my head (and no the voices don't count funny guys), but i've found specific formulas of electronic combinations (i.e pups, caps, pot values, etc) that make it easier to get my sound. granted i sound about the same on every guitar i play. but there is something magical about a guitar that sings. trust me, when you play a triad and you can hear 6 notes, that's when you know you've got something special.

Why get the sound of anyone else, period?

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Another thing that confuses me is the *Don Grosh* "Fenders". If these guitars were so good, why is it based on a fender? The DG's should have thier own unique shape, also!.....But, no, it's IDENTICAL to a Fender but DG gets all the credit.

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The reason for this? Mass production sometimes sucks. Too much stuff goes through fenders factory for some of it not to suck, and the stuff that is more consistent (custom shop) is rather expensive. Sometimes the big companies just do not offer the options you want as a player.

Theese boutique guitars are often not identical to fenders, other than in basic specs. Fender does sue these companies, and I think that, quite often, its a pity. It would cost you an arm and a leg to get a Nitro finished, maple board, sunburst strat style guitar, where the piece of ash it's made of is perfect, and the neck has been in your hands, for approval, before it's even seen the guitar, from fender. Some company used to do this, and now can't because fender said so. Don't get me wrong I love fender guitars, I own one, and it contains aftermarket fender pickups, but I can see the benifit in choice, and in competition, Tokai of course woke up fender in the 80's, and it's thanks to them that we currently have decent quality fenders to buy. These days Fender do not react to a challenge by improving their own product, they do it by litigation, and I think thats sad.

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Why get the sound of anyone else, period?

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and YES! :D

There's a reason people like OC Duff, Jim Rolph, Jason Lollar, Lindy Fralin, JD Van Zandt and Alan Hamel are selling pickups. Some of it is marketing. Some of it is that Fender doesn't nail the old sounds with the pickups they make today. Duff and Hamel in particular are known for re-creating the sounds of the originals. Fender can't or won't.

Yes, a lot of it is marketing. But for people who actually know tone (and there are darned few) there are some who are making the real deal. Seems simple to me.

I have a better understanding, thanks for all the input.
I used to ride (Harley) and loved HD (before they went designer :rolleyes: ).
There were aftermarket parts I liked and installed.

I get it :cool:

Tommy



:blbros

sorry bout the DG bashing, but how would *you* feel if *you* designed the Strat and someone came up w/ the exact thing and said it was better than yours?

i just think Leo is spinning in his grave over that!

and yes, i'm taking the hard line on that and still saying that DG, and anyone else that takes an original fender design and modifies it while keeping the same basic shape is wrong in doing so! :nay


....see tagline!

Well one reason is that guitar companies are always changing their stock pickup specs. Sometimes people want a "stock pickup that isnt made anymore or is to pricey to buy, so they have to look into after market "pups" in order to get the sound they are looking for. I agree that picks def' make a big dif' in tone and attack. Amps play a huge role too.

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Originally Posted by RedRain

Well one reason is that guitar companies are always changing their stock pickup specs. Sometimes people want a "stock pickup that isnt made anymore or is to pricey to buy, so they have to look into after market "pups" in order to get the sound they are looking for. I agree that picks def' make a big dif' in tone and attack. Amps play a huge role too.

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For my tastes and ears, the current AM reissue, and the custom shop 60 style pu`s are as close as the origionals for tone as i`ve ever heard, so why by anything that isn`t genuine?

CT. :cool:

To each their own.

IMHO Fender makes some really nice guitars but they are a far cry from the originals. Same with pickups. I for one want the best product to suit my tastes and could care less if it's a Fender or not.

As others have mentioned, you can love the look and feel of a guitar but not be crazy about its sound. That's why people change pickups. That's why I've changed pickups. I bought my Wolfgang because the neck felt like it was custom made for me. It just felt right. I tried everything I could think of for 3 years to get use to the pickups, but I could'nt do it. Changed them and for me it's so much better now. Same thing with my Tele. Found out that I was'nt playing it that much so I changed the pickups and now it's my #2 guitar.

I see your point Frank.

I look at it a different way, when I'm playing out, and someone wants me to show them a lick, so that they can copy it, I call it a compliment. When someone takes fenders original design, and tweaks it, or improves on it or, dare I say it, get it right, it's testament to the fact that the design is good. If you were to sue everyone who has taken elements of the fender designs then there would be hardly any guitars to buy, no Ibanez shred machines, no Tom Andersons, and then theres the elements fender took from other designers, thinline tele's, buckers for example. Frets, that was someone elses idea too. The guitar world once was a place where one fellow took elements of other peoples work, and made it their own. These days the people who own the rights to the design litigate. Fender is now a corporation, not leo's business, they are currently making some of the best guitars they ever have (not the best), but they are inconsistent. And as I said Fender no longer look at their competitors and see reason to improve their own work, they look and sue. It also does not seem to be the basics of the design that they sue for, merely the headstock shape. I agree that fender own the name, the trademarks, the distinguishing features, but, because they have allowed many other companies to make three pickup twin cutaway guitars, or two pickup single cutaway models, for so many years, that part of the design is pretty much public domain. I just wish fender would use the percieved threat from small time manufacturers as a reason to pull their socks up, and make their guitars right, and consistent.

I'm not having a go at you Frank, your points are valid, and since your opinion cost me nothing, you can have mine for free in return. :D

DAMN, I HATE WHEN OTHER PEOPLE HAVE VALID POINTS!

Suppose you're too old to hunt, but you've got a great hunting dog.
Say your grandson has a sweet lap dog, but the dog can't hunt.
Different needs call for different pups, obviously.
And that's why people swap pups.
:moonpiepie

"Why swap pups?" Because we can...

I think of guitars and amps like I do cars, motorcycles, bicycles, cameras, etc. If you can get a good/great stock one that really gets you going, then you're done. By the same token, don't be scared to get a piece of gear that is "almost there" and then work to get it there by doing some simple mods. In some cases, you can get a real piece of used discarded unwanted crap that, with creative component swapping, can become that #1 you've been looking for all along. Hot Rod guys do it all the time and people think it's cool. Why should guitars and amps be any different? Afterall, look at Clapton's Blackie or that white Lowell George Strat with the lipstick PUs or that early Jeff Beck blonde Tele (was that a Broadcaster?) with the HB in the neck. They just went ahead and did it...

BTW - I'm not advocating butchering a guitar or amp. Instead, I'm thinking more along the line of "stealth mods" (pup swapping, neck swapping, or adding a midrange control to a BF Fender amp would be types of "stealth mods").

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeoFauve

The fact is, tone is in the pick.
This little nugget of wisdom got mis-repeated, and somehow people started spending all kind$ of loot on pickups.

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I'll second that -- the pick, and picking technique. What angle do you hold the pick? How far from the bridge do you hit the strings? How old (and therefore dull) is the pick? Do you change the angle of the pick depending on the sound you want -- or speed? (I notice that turning the pick more perpendicular than parallel with the string will allow you to play faster.)

As for the pick itself -- is it thick or thin? Does it flex or is it very stiff? A flexing/flapping pick will slow you down because it is like trying to hit a baseball with a flapping bat.

Does its thickness taper toward the point or is the thickness uniform from end to end?

The ideal pick for me is stiff with zero give, 2 mm thick but with a taper toward the point. This gives you beefier tone and better speed because the taper helps kick the pick back out a little bit and saves you the time of "pulling it out" for the next dive in.

Another thing is that when the point of these picks gets dull, you can easily sand them back to the right point again -- but use fine sandpaper or it will sound raspy.

(FWIW, the ideal pick for these parameters is the Dunlop 2mm Stubby.)

That said, a change of pickups is in my opinion usually necessary on most Strats. Fender does make better grade pu's then what the put in on the factory floor -- the Fender Fat 50's in particular are very good. But the stock Fender pickups generally aren't much to write home about.

And another thing, as some have said already in so many words: Tinkering is part of the fun of having an electric guitar. In a way, I'm glad that guitars I buy don't have the perfect electronics for me -- it forced me to learn about their innards and how to tweak them for maximum mojo.

There are some things you can do to modifiy the sound of an acoustic guitar, like new frets, new nut, new bridge, but that's about it. With an electric, the potential different sounds you can get out if it are almost limitless. Different pots, different caps, resistor/cap combos across the hot lugs of the volume pot, series/parallel/out-of-phase switching, etc., etc., etc., and of course -- DIFFERENT PICKUPS.

To me, just daydreaming at work or at the grocery store about new ideas or components to try out is almost as much fun as playing the damn things!

Changing the pickups in a Strat will alter the inherent tone of the instrument. Pickups are the wood's mouthpiece to the amp. People usually have a tone in their head and decide that this is how a guitar "should" sound. These tones differ from one person to the next; one man's "singing" is another's "piercing". Personally, I like Lindy Fralin Vintage Hot strat pickups myself--I think they make my strat sound as close to the tone in my head as anything I've heard. I've owned more than 40 different guitars over the past 10 years and I have heard most of the pickups out there. If you secretly changed the pickups in my strat to anything else I would be able to tell in 2 seconds. 2 seconds.
And enough already with the "find your own tone" crap. Find your own style. Pick a classic tone. Unless you are one of those Line 6 people, really there aren't that many choices. Gibson to Marshall? Page. Strat to Fender? SRV. Strat to Marshall? Jimi. These men did these combos as well (IMO) as anyone. I pick their tone. And I sound like me. Does anybody really plug a strat into a Super Reverb with the neck pickup and say, "this sucks, it sounds too much like Stevie. I know, I'll put a Metal Zone in front of it so it's my 'own tone'" Of course not. That would be assinine, right?

You guyz are hurtin` my head!!

CT.